Ok, so I'm playing a Ranger in the Council of Thieves adventure path and I decided to go with two weapon fighting while using a shield as a weapon.
I have some questions I would like to know the answers to when I take it up with my GM :)
I'd like to end up with a Bashing Heavy Spiked Shield +2/+2 (AC/Attack).
1) A heavy spiked shield does 1d6 damage, bashing adds 2 sizes, it becomes huge ... how does this end up at 2d6 damage I've read about ?
2) When creating the shield, can I first add a +1 armor bonus, a +1 weapon bonus, add the bashing ability, upgrade to +2 armor bonus and upgrade to +2 weapon bonus ?
3) Can I use the shield attack as a primary attack, and use a short sword as my offhand attack. Taking a -2 penalty instead of the -4 penalty when fighting with two weapons ?
4) If I make the shield out of Mithral, does it count as a light weapon ?
At level 11 I will have the following feats invested in this " shield bashing venture":
Normal and Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Double Slice, Shield Slam, Two Weapon Rend and Shield Mastery.
Am I right when I,
- have 5 attacks, 3 shield bashes and 2 short sword attacks ? (Two weapon fighting feats)
- keep my AC bonus when shield bashing (Improved shield bash)
- get 3 free Bull Rushes without attacks of opportunity (when I hit with my shield) and when I push them into a wall they fall prone.(Shield Slam)
- add my full strength bonus to my offhand attacks (Double Slice)
- don't have the two weapon penalty when bashing with my shield (Shield Mastery)
- do another 1d10 + 1 1/2 strength bonus per turn when both weapons hit the target (Two weapon rend)
I kinda hope I'm correct ... because although it's a heavy investment in feats, it's pretty awesome.
Cheers in advance for answering my questions :)
-TDL
I don't know about everything else but the question about main-handing a shield was answered in the FAQ and the answer is yes that is a viable strategy.
Also to note is Shield Mastery will make a Heavy Shield effectively a +2 weapon so I wouldn't worry about pumping that up from +1 to +2 (though you'll need to get it to +1 to add Bashing).
I don't know about everything else but the question about main-handing a shield was answered in the FAQ and the answer is yes that is a viable strategy.
Also to note is Shield Mastery will make a Heavy Shield effectively a +2 weapon so I wouldn't worry about pumping that up from +1 to +2 (though you'll need to get it to +1 to add Bashing).
Do you perhaps have a link to that FAQ ?
And you're right, completely forgot about that. Well, that saves me some money to spend on more gear :)
-TDL
Honestly I found it quoted in another thread and I don't have a link directly to the faq.
D&D 3.5 FAQ wrote:
Can a character make a shield bash attack using the shield as a primary weapon or can it be used only as an offhand weapon?
While the rules describe a shield bash as an off-hand weapon, that’s simply an assumption (that your primary hand is holding a weapon). There’s nothing stopping you from declaring your shield bash as your primary weapon. Of course, that means that any attack you make with your other hand becomes a secondary weapon.
I realize this isn't 3.5 but some of the text is still a hold over from the previous system.
The thread I pulled it from is archived but if you run a search on shield bashing it's the thread called shield bashing and imp. two weapon fighting. Here's the link though I'm not sure it will work.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/archives/shieldBashingAndImpTwoWeaponFighting
Honestly I found it quoted in another thread and I don't have a link directly to the faq.
D&D 3.5 FAQ wrote:
Can a character make a shield bash attack using the shield as a primary weapon or can it be used only as an offhand weapon?
While the rules describe a shield bash as an off-hand weapon, that’s simply an assumption (that your primary hand is holding a weapon). There’s nothing stopping you from declaring your shield bash as your primary weapon. Of course, that means that any attack you make with your other hand becomes a secondary weapon.I realize this isn't 3.5 but some of the text is still a hold over from the previous system.
The thread I pulled it from is archived but if you run a search on shield bashing it's the thread called shield bashing and imp. two weapon fighting. Here's the link though I'm not sure it will work.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/archives/shieldBashingAndImpTwoWeaponFighting
I found it, thanks.
No one for the other questions ?
-TDL
I can tell you that the answer to number 4 is probably no unless there's text someplace specifically stating otherwise.
While mithral may change the weight class of armor it does not change the size class of a weapon. A human sized great sword can not be wielded by a halfling if it's made out of lighter material. The same goes for a shield. If it's a light weapon it's going to be a light weapon, regardless of it's actual weight. Same for a heavy weapon.
Think of it like this, ever carry a really big empty box someplace? Even though that box is empty it can still be hard to manage simply because of its size. Weapon size categories are put together this way. Armor size categories are put together more based on sheer weight because they're distributed over your body as evenly as possible. When using a shield to bash it's treated like a weapon, its weight plays little into the equation.
Heavy Shields: "You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon."
Light Shields: Identical, except for: "For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon."
Shield Master feat: "You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon."
Mithral: "In the case of weapons, this lighter weight does not change a weapon’s size category or the ease with which it can be wielded (whether it is light, one-handed, or two-handed)."
You might even consider simply fighting with two light shields, the same way a character would specialize in a single weapon (weapon focus, improved critical, etc). I had a whole build worked up on this, and it worked out pretty well- you only got the AC of one of the two shields, but it still worked really well.
Also, with Shield Mastery (I think) you're gonna want a +5 Bashing Light Shield ideally. It'll give you a +6 enhancement bonus to your attack/damage rolls, as well as a +6 shield bonus to your AC. Total awesome-sauce.
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Also, with Shield Mastery (I think) you're gonna want a +5 Bashing Light Shield ideally. It'll give you a +6 enhancement bonus to your attack/damage rolls, as well as a +6 shield bonus to your AC. Total awesome-sauce.
noup, Shield Mastery only let you use the BASE modifier of the shield (light shield +1/ heavy +2) this is in the faq
...
Also, with Shield Mastery (I think) you're gonna want a +5 Bashing Light Shield ideally. It'll give you a +6 enhancement bonus to your attack/damage rolls, as well as a +6 shield bonus to your AC. Total awesome-sauce.noup, Shield Mastery only let you use the BASE modifier of the shield (light shield +1/ heavy +2) this is in the faq
Hmm. Suddenly TWF Shield bashing doesn't look so hot.
Sarabanda's right, but basically this is a viable tactic and build.
1d6 goes to 1d8 goes to 2d6.
Mithril doesn't reduce weapon size (also, you'd have to forge both shield and spikes out of mithril to get the mithril weapon characteristic and shield weight reduction - pricey, but ultimately quite useful).(personally, I'd go with a darkwood shield, with adamantine spikes.)
Two light shields is a stronger setup, and me, I like the fantasy-warhammerish feel of that: a Dwarf with two spiked shields...scary. It's stronger because you can lay all your feats on both weapons. Still, the shortsword crit is quite nice to have.
That aside, the drawbacks are the lack of a decent crit modifier or base damage die on your main weapon - that makes Vital Strike a nonstarter, really; but in Pathfinder, Power Attack works very well with this kind of thing and more than makes up for a die or two.
Note that some folks do get all antsy about shield bashing, but the 3.5 faq is tried and tested and hasn't been overruled. Your DM's mileage may vary, however, so be prepared for a No there, just in case.
Heavy Shields: "You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon."
Light Shields: Identical, except for: "For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon."
Shield Master feat: "You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon."
Mithral: "In the case of weapons, this lighter weight does not change a weapon’s size category or the ease with which it can be wielded (whether it is light, one-handed, or two-handed)."
I knew the first 3 ones ... but I must have not read that last part. No problem, would only have been it bit TOO much I reckon.
And the -4 penalty will be turned into a -2 penalty as soon as I switch from hitting with my sword first to my shield bash as a first attack.
Cheers FBW ... nice to see you here ... :)
And using 2 shields ... would also look somewhat ... off ...
My idea is that I want to be able to use my first(primary) attack to shield bash them into a wall and knocking them prone. Then use my second(offhand) attack to hit them while they (are trying to) get up.
Gaining the +4 attack bonus while they are prone and gaining an attack of opportunity when they get up:)
Besides the obvious nice bonuses you get .. it just looks awesome in combat :)
Now if someone could help me with questions 1 and 2 ... I'll be set.
1) A heavy spiked shield does 1d6 damage, bashing adds 2 sizes, it becomes huge ... how does this end up at 2d6 damage I've read about ?2) When creating the shield, can I first add a +1 armor bonus, a +1 weapon bonus, add the bashing ability, upgrade to +2 armor bonus and upgrade to +2 weapon bonus ?
Ofcourse the most important thing is that my GM (FBW :P) has to approve of my set course of action. It's pretty awesome, but it's also a hefty price to pay ... All my feats are geared towards this.
*Fingers crossed*
-TDL
"1) A heavy spiked shield does 1d6 damage, bashing adds 2 sizes, it becomes huge ... how does this end up at 2d6 damage I've read about ?"
1d6->1d8->2d6
And the -4 penalty will be turned into a -2 penalty as soon as I switch from hitting with my sword first to my shield bash as a first attack.
And using 2 shields ... would also look somewhat ... off ...
Again, with emphasis to point out the limitations;
Heavy Shields: "You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon."
Light Shields: Identical, except for: "For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon."
Shield Master feat: "You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon."
Thus a heavy shield will always count as a one-handed weapon in the off-hand, with the associated penalties. The shield master feat eliminates this penalty for the shield, but not for the main hand. A light shield is a light weapon in the off-hand, and thus carries milder penalties.
However, there is nothing preventing you from using the shield bash as the attack of choice when limited to a single action.
FBW - note that the always-offhand rule is only to be taken as a blanket coverage if you ignore the 3.5 Faq, linked to above. That Faq states that the reference to off-hand isn't a blanket condition for shield bashing...which makes sense, after all.
"1) A heavy spiked shield does 1d6 damage, bashing adds 2 sizes, it becomes huge ... how does this end up at 2d6 damage I've read about ?"
1d6->1d8->2d6
Breakdown-time:
-A heavy shield does 1d4;-Spikes on a shield pump the damage dice one step up, 1d6
-The "bashing" is a magical special Ability (+1) which adds 2 sizes more (and stacks with the spikes, explained in the 3.5 faq)
And the -4 penalty will be turned into a -2 penalty as soon as I switch from hitting with my sword first to my shield bash as a first attack.
And using 2 shields ... would also look somewhat ... off ...Again, with emphasis to point out the limitations;
Heavy Shields: "You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon."
Light Shields: Identical, except for: "For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon."
Shield Master feat: "You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon."
Thus a heavy shield will always count as a one-handed weapon in the off-hand, with the associated penalties. The shield master feat eliminates this penalty for the shield, but not for the main hand. A light shield is a light weapon in the off-hand, and thus carries milder penalties.
However, there is nothing preventing you from using the shield bash as the attack of choice when limited to a single action.
Yes, I'm well aware of the two weapon fighting penalties. And the way Shield Master works. I just at some point want to switch my first attack to the shield bash and the second to hit with my weapon. Then I make the selection for the off-hand weapon by myself. The book just asumes (correctly so I think) that MOST people use the shield in their off-hand.
FBW - note that the always-offhand rule is only to be taken as a blanket coverage if you ignore the 3.5 Faq, linked to above. That Faq states that the reference to off-hand isn't a blanket condition for shield bashing...which makes sense, after all.
I tend to agree ... HOWEVER ... since FBW is the GM ... he has the last say in this.
If you rule it not possible, I will find another way ;)
-TDL
I would suggest investing in a Sun Blade instead of a short sword. it counts as a Light Weapon, but inflicts bastard sword damage, and can also be wielded one handed.
Hmm .. that's nice .. but it's pretty expensive at a little more than 50k gold :P
But would indeed be worth to save up for.
-TDL