Heya guys.
So I have a PC who, after fightering his way through a few levels, is looking to take on a skill heavy class to pick up his shortfall. Looking over the rogue and the bard he was crestfallen to find they were his only options if he wanted to 'bulk up' that area of expertise.
Then he found the expert. He loves it, and the aristocrat, he claims it's just waht he was after, BUT it'f fairly sub-optimal as a player class.
After slapping him upside the head and explaining that NPC classes ARE suboptimal, he argued the whole 'where there's a will, there's a way'
So I've been thinking..... If you added a feat every alternating level to the Expert class (or perhaps a limited set of feats) would it fall into the 'playable' range for a PC?
The aristocrat also floats his boat. he likes the idea of becoming more..and these are his words 'palace worthy'
Batts
What is it that he doesn't like about the rogue and the bard? After all, the expert is basically just the rogue without any class abilities. Can he not just spin the fluff on the rogue class to make it fit his character?
well.. first level abilities say it all. sneak attack and trapfinding. He feels that by taking the class, he has basically become the guy who sneaks up and stabs someone in the back, or he's the guy who has to go first an d hunt for traps, and he feels it impinges on his 'noble warrior' schtick.
He's looking for an aesthetic, and is opposed to the rogue as it stands. not so much the bard, but the party already has a bard and he feels it would be stepping on toes too much.
I Like where his head's at, and he's dissatisfied with his skill slump. He's a good addition to a table and frankly I'd rather support him than let him lose interest.
Batts
Could you post a few more details about the character up until now, and what he is looking to achieve?
What skills are we talking about - and how many? If he is a fighter, he may have feats to spare to take Skill Focus a few times. That alone goes a long way.
sneak attack and trapfinding. He feels that by taking the class, he has basically become the guy who sneaks up and stabs someone in the back, or he's the guy who has to go first an d hunt for traps, and he feels it impinges on his 'noble warrior' schtick.
So his problem is flavor? Fudge it! Rename the class to "swashbuckler," rename sneak attack to "precise strike," and rename trapfinding to "keen eye."
I cannot recall in which book it was, but I remember reading something somewhere about "generic" classes - fighter, spellcaster and skilled as the only three classes for any game. If somebody recalls which book I´m talking about, this might be worth a look, especially the "skilled" class. (hate to admit it, but I finally lost the overview about my OGL stuff)
Stefan
Ignore the trapfinding (don't put skillpoints in disable device), consider the Sneak Attack damage a "fightery" thing (dealing more damage in combat by striking in a precise way... how is that not Fighter-related), and use the 8 skillpoints per level in all the social/knowledge skills he's been wanting.
Or... take out the "sneak attack" and replace it with "skirmish" or whatever it was that only gave extra damage from flanking or "if you've moved in the round" or whatever it was.
Oh, and remove trapfinding/trap bonuses with maybe a bardic knowledge thing.
I'd consider that still balanced (if anything, maybe a bit short since the Sneak Attack loses a lot if it's only given when moving in a round... maybe increase to a High Fort save too).
I cannot recall in which book it was, but I remember reading something somewhere about "generic" classes - fighter, spellcaster and skilled as the only three classes for any game. If somebody recalls which book I´m talking about, this might be worth a look, especially the "skilled" class. (hate to admit it, but I finally lost the overview about my OGL stuff)
Stefan
You are talking about the Unearthed Arcana stuff. Which is OGC btw, check out a good html site for that info here.
I cannot recall in which book it was, but I remember reading something somewhere about "generic" classes - fighter, spellcaster and skilled as the only three classes for any game. If somebody recalls which book I´m talking about, this might be worth a look, especially the "skilled" class. (hate to admit it, but I finally lost the overview about my OGL stuff)
Stefan
You are talking about the Unearthed Arcana stuff. Which is OGC btw, check out a good html site for that info here.
Of course! Thanks for the pointer. The OP would have to look closely at that expert class, as it is probably sub-par with the new pathfinder rules. The hit die should be a d8 now, as an example. But it might be worth looking at for what the player wants.
Stefan
Thank you guys for the responses. I will take them under advisement. as it is we've broken up for christmas, so I have a few weeks to get him some options. He's still about a grand shy of levelling so I have time.
Batts
Find what skills he want to increase and give him some Pathfinder Traits that let him take these skills as class skills regardless of what class he actually is. That's an easy way to give an "aristocratic upbringing" to someone who's a wizard, a fighter or whatever.
If he wants to be a skillz monkey, his best bets are rogue and bard anyway, but there are ways to fine-tune anything.
Even if he's a Rogue, he doesn't have to sneak around or go snooping for traps. He can pick up the fancy rapier, get the feint series, and that sneak attack becomes adept fencing talent. Take the talky skills and go from there.
looks good, but we are sticking with core pathfinder for now
Batts
The open content psionics stuff from 3.5 had a bunch of "general" feats that didn't make it into standard core rules (for some reason.. it's not like extra skillpoints or the Stand Still feat were particularly psionic).
I know you aren't looking to go outside core Pathfinder, however something as simple as a feat like Open Minded (gain 5 skillpoints) could be what he wants.
I mean, if there's one thing the Fighter has, it's feats. He can afford to drop a few to get 10-15 more skillpoints. Since Pathfinder doesn't penalize for cross-class, those points can be spent 1:1 wherever he wants.
And if there's a particular skill he wants to be great at, that isn't a Fighter class skill, pick up the Skill Focus feat. That's your +3 right there (and turns into +6 at 11 ranks too I believe).
Might be the easiest way to let him get a bit more skilled without having to pick up an entirely new class that has a bunch of fluff baggage.
So I've been thinking..... If you added a feat every alternating level to the Expert class (or perhaps a limited set of feats) would it fall into the 'playable' range for a PC?
Batts
Well Actually since we play an unusually social Pathfinder campaign Ive also neede better expert and noble class's my player havent taken any levels but i think there probly good enough to use for a couple levels on a pc: for the expert i split him into 2 version:
The Craftsmen:
Alignment:Any
HD: d8
Skills: 6+int
Proficiencies: all simple one martial, light armour, shields
Bap:cleric
Saves: Fort:bad Ref: Good will: bad
Class skills: Apraise, Craft Profession + 8 other
At first level he gains skill pro: craft
at second lever skill pro: profession
5th: master craftsmen
9th 13th, 17th, and 20th he gains an item creation feat.
and the Adademic:
Alignment:Any
HD: d6
Skills: 8+int
Proficiencies: quarterstaff, dagger and 1 other simple no shields or armour
Bab: Wizard
Saves Fort: bad Ref: Bad Will: Good
Class skills: All knowledge skills + 5 others
1st level: Skill focus any Knowledge skill
2nd Level: Skill focus any otherKnowledge skill
3rd Level: Skill focus any otherKnowledge skill
6th level: (General Knowledge) can use Knowledge skill untrained
10th level: (Obsessive knowledge) choose a knowledge skill with skill focus and gain a permenant +6 perfection bonus
14th Level: (Obsessive knowledge) choose a knowledge skill with skill focus and gain a permenant +6 perfection bonus
18th Level: (Obsessive knowledge) choose a knowledge skill with skill focus and gain a permenant +6 perfection bonus
20th Level (Mental Library) Gain a +2 nameless bonus to all Knowledge skills
I hope that helps a bit if your intresed in my revised noble let my know as well.