I would like to make a ray sorcerer. I've got the basics down - Halfling, Straight Sorcerer, Elemental Bloodline (air most likely). What I'm not sure about is feat choice and to lesser extent spell choice.
Any advice?
Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot (mostly for precise shot). If you are going to be a ray specialist these are your first two feats. After that Weapon focus Ranged Spell (assuming your dm allows the complete arcane interpretation) or Weapon focus Ray. After that I still recommend combat casting as you never know when the enemy will force you to cast close.
From there it depends on your spells, and your options of material. Split ray from 3.5 is a great choice if its allowed but you need a metamagic feat before that.
You may also want to consider something like Defensive combat training. You are small, with a poor strength and BAB, you will need a boost to your CMD if you face anyone throwing trips, or bull rushes around.
Dodge is always a good feat, stacks with other dodge bonuses, and adds both to your AC and CMD.
Spells really depends on what you have available, I would make very different choices if say the 3.5 spell compendium was allowed then if it was just pathfinder core.
Have a look at the Spellwarp Sniper PrC.
Doing a similar thing with Human PC. Taking three levels of Rogue and going Arcane Trickster along with the SwS.
I second what Spacelard said about Spellwarp Sniper (if the 3.5 complete series are in play). It's out of Complete Scoundrel, p64.
I also second Kolokotroni about Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Weapon Focus (Ranged Spell).
What is good about Spellwarp Sniper is that it's an intermediate PrC (i.e. 5 levels). You can alter the form of certain area spells into rays as you cast them by redefining their effect entry as 'ray'. As you progress in levels, you can increase your ability to convert certain spells to the ray descriptor.
Take a single dip into the rogue class before taking this as the PrC also can allow you to take advantage of sneak attacks by stacking the damage (as long as the target is within 30'). At 3rd level, you get Precise Shot as a bonus feat. Since you'd already have it (hopefully), you can take any other feat that has PBS as a prereq as long as you meet the prereqs. Then there's the Ray Mastery capstone at 5th level, but at this point you should check it out for yourself.
It's the best path for the ray specialist. All five levels allow you to take an existing spellcasting level. You only lose out one from taking a single rogue class.
One other suggestion. Instead of taking rogue, look into the Spellthief base class (CoAdventurer p13) as a level dip (you can still do sneak attacks and steal spells) and pick up the Master Spellthief feat (CScound p79) after you have at least gotten past 2nd level arcane spells in your sorceror build. It stacks your spellthief levels with levels of other arcane spellcasting classes for the purpose of determing what spell level you can steal.
Hope this helps.
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Look, this advice is nice and all, but I'm looking to play pathfinder, not 3.5 here.
I'm not trying to attack the use of 3.5 material or anything, but is everyone suggesting that ray sorcerers only work if the grossly overpowered stuff from the later days of 3.5 is made available?
If so, why? If not, how would a pathfinder ray sorcerer break down?
Look, this advice is nice and all, but I'm looking to play pathfinder, not 3.5 here.
I'm not trying to attack the use of 3.5 material or anything, but is everyone suggesting that ray sorcerers only work if the grossly overpowered stuff from the later days of 3.5 is made available?
If so, why? If not, how would a pathfinder ray sorcerer break down?
That is fine, it is why i asked what your options were. I am not saying that there is anything with sticking to pathfinder core, but it makes a difference depending. Some people play with 3.5 material some dont.
Most of my advice stands.
Point Blank shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (Ray or Ranged Spell depending on your dms interpretation, the thing about complete arcane was a ruling on rules that have not be reworded in pathfinder, so it is not outrageous to think that it would still stand)
Defensive Combat Training and Dodge are still good ideas as well. You may also want to to get Arcane armor training and a Mithral Chain Shirt so you can switch out mage armor for a different spell, but this ofcourse at midrange levels, not at low levels (thankfully you have the ability to take mage armor at low levels and change it later on).
From your bonus feats I recomend: Dodge, and Improved initiative. Maybe empower spell but it has pretty limited use, as you wont have alot of variable spells in your list.
Spells In Pathfinder Core Rules I like for a ray sorceror:
0 Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Acid Splace
1 Shield, Mage Armor, Grease (for high dex targets making them flatfooted makes it much easier to hit them), Ray of Enfeeblement (take this first ofcourse), Color Spray
2. Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray (take this first), Glitterdust, Invisibility (more ways to get rid of that pesky dex bonus and all around useful), Cats Grace,
3. Heroism, Dispel Magic, Fireball, Displacement, Ray of Exhaustion (take this first), Vampiric Touch (if you eventually take weapon finese this becomes a very good spell to have around), fly, Slow
4. Stoneskin, Enervation (take this first) Fear,
I can go on if you like, basically with pathfinder core you will find you have 1 maybe 2 ray spells or even ranged touch spells per spell level. So you will probably spread out into other kinds of spells, debuffs utilities, and crowd control. With 3.5 material you 1. have many more ray/ranged touch spells to choose from with much more variety in what they can do, and 2. Have options like split ray and spell warp sniper to improve your ray using ability. If thats not what you want to do not a problem, but people are suggesting the 3.5 options because they are good ones.
Pretty much what Kolokotroni said. We only mentioned the other options IF 3.5 materials was in play. No biggie.
Also, just make sure that your stats are more dex based instead of strength based as the dex modifier goes toward your BAB for ranged attacks. It increases your likelihood to hit -- especially since the AC is easier to hit doing a touch attack versus standard melee.
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Stat wise, I'm pretty much following the Sorcerer's guide that's elsewhere on these forums. It just didn't have anything on ray sorcerers, other than "halflings are good at it", hence the questions.
So for spell selection, it's the usual sorcerer picks, plus all the ray/ranged touch spells the list offers at each level.
Feat selection is P.B.S., Precise Shot, and Weapon Focus instead of the usual Spell Focus and Summoning (at least at first), plus the usual useful feats.
I guess I was making this more complicated than it actually was.
Stat wise, I'm pretty much following the Sorcerer's guide that's elsewhere on these forums. It just didn't have anything on ray sorcerers, other than "halflings are good at it", hence the questions.
So for spell selection, it's the usual sorcerer picks, plus all the ray/ranged touch spells the list offers at each level.
Feat selection is P.B.S., Precise Shot, and Weapon Focus instead of the usual Spell Focus and Summoning (at least at first), plus the usual useful feats.
I guess I was making this more complicated than it actually was.
Dont use the normal stat progression. If you are a ray specialist, your first stat is dex, your second is charisma. Otherwise it looks like you have a good start.
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Think the optimal 3.5 ray build was Spellthief 1/Wizard 5-ish/Unseen Seerer/Spellwarped Sniper or something crazy like that, with some feats from the complete scoundrel.
Take Point blank and precise shot, get scorching ray, burn things to death. Your golden. Pick up True Strike as well, plus quicken spell now that you can use it properly without extra feats as a sorcerer.
QTSD. Quicken True Strike Disintegration.
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Think the optimal 3.5 ray build was Spellthief 1/Wizard 5-ish/Unseen Seerer/Spellwarped Sniper or something crazy like that, with some feats from the complete scoundrel.
Take Point blank and precise shot, get scorching ray, burn things to death. Your golden. Pick up True Strike as well, plus quicken spell now that you can use it properly without extra feats as a sorcerer.
QTSD. Quicken True Strike Disintegration.
...and when exactly will I be casting a tenth level spell? There aren't any epic rules for pathfinder yet, and in any case the system starts breaking down at the 18-20 range. Classes are reasonably balanced from 3ish all the way through to the mid teens, but 1-2 and 18-20 have way too much wackiness for them to be the basis of a build.
I don't have any problems with people pulling in all the 3.5 material and wanting to do epic god slaying wackiness; it's just that myself and my group spent years doing exactly that, and we walked away from 3.5 years before 4th ed because it got boring. Pathfinder brought us back because it's a new system with familiar rules.
Sorry if it seems like I'm whining here, but in every single other "character building advice" thread I've seen, there's been no significant mention of non-pathfinder specific rules. I assumed i'd get the same.
Sorry if it seems like I'm whining here, but in every single other "character building advice" thread I've seen, there's been no significant mention of non-pathfinder specific rules. I assumed i'd get the same.
Mostly this is because people wish to continue to help, but in the pathfinder core rules there is very little for a ray specialist. Take point blank shot, precise shot, weapon focus and the ray spells, thats pretty much it. There on your a sorceror. Its not really much of a specialization. Which is why people expect you to want to inject some 3.5 material. You obviously dont so really your path is pretty simple with your character.
Any advice?Dodge is always a good feat, stacks with other dodge bonuses, and adds both to your AC and CMD.
I have seen this stated more than once before. What am I missing? Where is it stated that Dodge affects CMD in any way? Not saying you're wrong, just wondering where this rule is.
Dodge (Combat)
Your training and reflexes allow you to react swiftly to avoid an opponents' attacks.Prerequisite: Dex 13.
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to your AC. A condition that makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC also makes you lose the benefits of this feat.
Any advice?Dodge is always a good feat, stacks with other dodge bonuses, and adds both to your AC and CMD.
I have seen this stated more than once before. What am I missing? Where is it stated that Dodge affects CMD in any way? Not saying you're wrong, just wondering where this rule is.
Dodge (Combat)
Your training and reflexes allow you to react swiftly to avoid an opponents' attacks.Prerequisite: Dex 13.
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to your AC. A condition that makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC also makes you lose the benefits of this feat.
"CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier
The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Defense is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8. Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMD when resisting specific maneuvers. A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD."
QTSD. Quicken True Strike Disintegration.
I think he meant
Quickened True Strike + Disintegrate, but I could be mistaken.
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QTSD. Quicken True Strike Disintegration.I think he meant
Quickened True Strike + Disintegrate, but I could be mistaken.
That was my interpretation as well.
As for why you're getting a lot of 3.5 responses, as others have said, there's just not much to a ray sorcerer that requires help. Take PBS and Precise Shot, make sure you have the minimum Charisma to cast the ray spell you want, and then pump your ranged touch attack as much as possible.
Particularly since you're eliminating 3.5 material, you really can't get by with just rays alone. Sure, you can take metamagic feats -- but you really don't have many ray spells to work with.
Rays are good for single targets, but you'll need something else to do. If you're going for very high Charisma, you can do a blaster route (AoE damage spells - fireball, cone of cold, chain lightning, etc.) or a control route (AoE control spells - glitterdust, slow, confusion, etc).
An option that exists for low Charisma builds is the buff bot. This may seem lame, but your team will absolutely love you.
You can also take a melee sorcerer route, but you'll typically be wanting to pump Str over Dex. Then again, you don't need much Dex to be a really good ray spammer.
"CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier
The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Defense is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8. Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMD when resisting specific maneuvers. A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD."
Aha! Well then, it looks like I have some NPCs to adjust.
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Are there some rules I don't know about that work for combining spells? Of course I meant you Quicken a True Strike and then cast Disintegration. To do it the other way I'd have said True Strike Quickened Disintegration. TSQD sucks. QTSD is awesome. :)
Also, the spell warped sniper build was for like level 8 or so. I don't know why you thought I was talking about anything close to epic.
Like everyone has said though, you take 2 archery feats and you are a ray specialist. Everything else is handled just by being a sorcerer.
I would like to make a ray sorcerer. I've got the basics down - Halfling, Straight Sorcerer, Elemental Bloodline (air most likely). What I'm not sure about is feat choice and to lesser extent spell choice.
Any advice?
Low levels you'll rely on your sorcerer bloodline Ray, air is good for fly speed. As a sorcerer you can benefit a lot from metamagic. There's not a lot of great core rays and boosting them with metamagic lets you be more versatile in your other spell selections. Also rays tend to have something nice that hurts metamagic compared to AoE, no save.
feats, PBS, precise shot, weapon focus(ranged spell), improved critical(ranged spell) will be your friends, quicken empower and extend will also be decent options
You're going to want most core rays with a specialist if spell compendium is allowed this character will be a lot more powerful. Spells that keep you away from your enemies will also be fine choices.
level 1 spells you will want ray of enfeeblement
level 2 scorching ray and acid arrow(no SR and yours can be lightning, congratulations you can now deal with clay golems)
level 3 ray of exhaustion and empowered ray of enfeeblement extended acid arrow is another option here
level 4 empowered scorching rays, empowered acid arrows, enervation
level 5 quickened enfeeblement, no good new rays. I do like telekinesis here and you could do some nice combos like using PBS and precise shot to hit an enemy with 15 alchemist fires or acid flasks with some planning.
level 6 disintigrate and empowered enervations come into play
level 7 no new rays but waves of exhaustion will force your enemies to ignore you as they only get one action(no charges) and you can move and shoot(at this point you may want to swap out ray of exhaustion, this is just better)
level 8 polar ray, pathfinder gave it a nice boost. quickened enervation
level 9 energy drain
One thought for a ray-based sorcerer would be feats like Mobility (prerequisite Dodge) or Fleet (which now can be taken multiple times and the effects stack). The idea is to be able to move and put yourself in a good position to use your rays while staying out of reach of melee persons, or even behind other characters who can be used for cover.
To this effect, some spells that might be useful if you don't want to take another ray spell could include Expeditious Retreat (to move around) and Summon Monster (to summon a bodyguard for yourself).
Perhaps you can take the Read Magic cantrip and buy these spells on scrolls if you don't think you're going to use them often, but would like to be able to cast them when you do need them. Summon Monster especially would be one you might want to have on scrolls so that you can use your spell slot for something else.
If you can spare the points to get INT 13, don't forget Combat Expertise and Improved Feint. Bluff is a class skill for Sorcerers, being able to Bluff someone out of their DEX bonus to AC by rolling on a CHA-based skill as a move action is worth being able to do.
Plus Combat Expertise makes your own AC better.
It's also worth it to consider the Aberrant bloodline, since it gives you the ability to use Aberrant Reach to get a few extra feet of 'ray' range.