Hi everybody,
I'd like to hear some opinions on whether or not the Arcane Armor Training and Arcane Armor Mastery feats are worth it for a fighter/wizard/Eldritch knight (or Gish, if you will).
I have an elf fighter/wizard that I'm planning to take along the Eldritch knight path. He fights two-handed with his bonded Elven Curve Blade and relies on Mage Armor and Shield for AC right now (lvl 2)
Thanks to taking the Magical Knack trait, I can pick up Arcane Armor Training at lvl three, and since he has maxed out his craft armor skill, he'll be able to forge his own MW Mithril Chain shirt.
But after reading various threads and optimization guides on these boards and others, I'm beginning to have second thoughts about using armor.
As I see it, each path has pros and cons
Armor use:
- costs two feats (three if you wish to enchant your own armor)
- uses up swift actions
- only allows for moderate protection without spell failure (Mithril Breastplate)
- Always active - can't be dispelled and don't expire
- additional enchantments can be added to the armor beside the AC bonus
- Cost of armor (low, since he forges and enchants his own)
No Armor Use:
- frees up valuable feats
- allows the use of quickened spells
- allows the use of other enchanted clothing
- uses spell slots for protection spells
- vulnerable to debuff/surprise
- cost of alternative protective items (amulet of Natural protection, Bracers of Armor, ring of protection/force shield.
I'd also think it in the way of flavor. Is your elf more of a agile magician, who can also fight, or a wall of armour that can also cast spells?
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I'd go with a very light armor. Mithral Shirts, Studded Leather and the like. If you can enchant your own armor or have someone to do it for you, you could get your hands on some magic padded armor. Only a 5% spell failure, and just a couple points of AC might end up saving your life one day.
On the flip side, you might go with a Buckler. It straps to your forearm so you can still cast spells, and it can also be enchanted.
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As the others pointed out there's really two main forms of eldritch knight builds; melee and caster.
Melee intends to use his spells to enhance himself and his equipment to make him a good fighter. Wearing Armor reduces the prep time and most will go for arcane strike to increase their damage.
Casters use the improved base attack progression to maximise ray and touch spells in combat getting far more bang in fewer casts. They may use armor but will likely want to remain mobile and avoid attacks so feats like mobility and spring attack would likely replace the arcane armor feats.
As with most wizards it really depends on your spell line up. With the eldritch knight, decide early and stick with that choice.
There is a third option that combines the two, the ranged eldritch knight. But they are far more feat intensive towards ranged combat and generally fall under the caster category.
The main problem I see with the EK characters is when they get to 10th level in the prestige, u will probably have the Arcane strike feat and probably armor, either way is troublesome when u get the Spell Critical.
If u r attacking a guy in melee, most likelly u r not using the arcane armor feat AND are using arcane strike. So you really can't cast the spell since u already used your swift action. And even if u could, you would have the spell failure from the armor.
IF u r using the arcane armor feat u won't be able to use the arcane strike AND won't be able to use the spell critial cause of the Swift action used for it...
So, in the end, when u get there, u will, most likelly ignore those feats when in melee, or run the risk of being unable to use this awesome ability... (which should be an imediate action)
So, anyhow. I think the best way to go is, no arcane armor, no arcane strike and quicken spell must be used with caution... and get a REALLY high crit weapon.
Yeah, I know it sucks...
It's good to remind that the spell critical works with ANY critical, be it melee, ranged or Spell, so it's pretty cool anyway, too bad it's a swift action, and u can't use it with many wizard/sorcerer feats...
Run into battle in the buff (or wear an armored kilt, last I checked they had no spell failure and still give a +1 armor bonus), or equip some mithril gear. Alternatively, use mage armor and shield to buff your AC.
This conundrum is one of the reasons I love Abjurant Champion from Complete Mage- he grants himself a bonus equal to his level on mage armor and shield, so a max. level abjurant champion gets +9 AC from mage armor and +9 AC from shield (as well as a 2 min/level shield spell).
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My suggestion would be:
Use Mage armor and Shield, and when you get ready to enchant, buff up a mithril buckler. The enhancement bonus of the buckler will stack with your shield spell - so you'll get the protection value of a chain shirt and an enhanced tower shield. Not bad.
Use spells like Mirror Image for miss %. This is a better defense than AC anyways.
OR
Use spells like Beast Shape to take polymorphed forms. Your armor isn't going to translate anyways, but your mage armor and shield spells will. You also get a natural armor boost.
OR
Get some padded armor and enhance that. Use Mage armor with it (it won't stack with the padded armors armor bonus, but it will stack with the enhancement bonus from the padded armor) and it's like a chain shirt with an arcane failure chance of 5%.
Is that enough options?
Thanks for all the feedback - not sure it made my decision easier, but it certainly gave me some more options to consider.
A few points and comments.
Flavor and role
The main thing in the character concept is the use of the elven curve blade as a bonded object. This already means that I can't cast very well without it in hand, and I plan on investing several feats into improving my skill with that particular weapon (wpn. focus and wpn specialization etc.) as well as taking Power Attack and Vital Strike/Imp Vital stike. So this is very much a melee Gish.
The rest of the party are:
- Human evoker (pure blaster)
- Dwarf paladin
- Dwarf druid
- Human rogue
Still spell
Definitely an option, but not being able to use it on by best spells is likely to hurt. And since I have to have my sword in hand to cast, rods are pretty much out of the picture.
Enchanted Buckler
Interesting option. The only drawback would be the -1 to hit, considering that I already have a sub-par BAB and additional minuses from PWR Att.
Padded Armor ect.
I just can't picture the character in padded armor, and I think constantly having to roll spell failure would bug me, even if it only fails in 5% of the cases.
Spell critical
I hadn't caught Xum's point about Spell Critical at all. And since the elven curve blade has a crit range of 18-20 and I plan on making it Keen ASAP, thats highly relevant.
Arcane Strike
I'm seriously starting to wonder if this feat will be worth it, especially in the light of the spell critical issue. On the other hand, it just seems must-have for a Gish.
Abjurant Champion/Spellsword
Non-Pathfinder PrC's not allowed, so not an option. Otherwise, I would probably go for Abj Champ.
Using spells as protection/shapechange
This is obviously a way to go, but I'm worried about prep time and staying power. At low levels I only got magical protection for 1-2 encounters and at higher levels I'll need 2-3 rounds before I'm ready to join the action.
So, despite all the things that count against armor, right now I'm still leaning towards using it, along with Arcane Armor Training/Mastery.
Any additional input will be much appreciated.
That's only an issue if you plan on attacking with a secondary weapon in the buckler hand, which I'd assume you would leave free for spellcasting.
Enchanted Buckler
Interesting option. The only drawback would be the -1 to hit, considering that I already have a sub-par BAB and additional minuses from PWR Att.
The elven curve blade is two handed. The -1 to hit applies.
That's only an issue if you plan on attacking with a secondary weapon in the buckler hand, which I'd assume you would leave free for spellcasting.
Enchanted Buckler
Interesting option. The only drawback would be the -1 to hit, considering that I already have a sub-par BAB and additional minuses from PWR Att.
I fight with an Elven Curve Blade, which is a 2-handed weapon.
From the buckler description
"...You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so..."
My GM has ok'ed that I can cast while holding the sword, both while it is sheathed (I carry it around like a staff) and during combat, since it is my bonded item.
For me armor has a powerful argument of believability. "I always do x,y,z before battle" makes me think that you're pretty fragile. How many battles do you get to plan and how many are sprung upon you?
By the time you've earned a few levels I like to think you're physically tougher. Armor has a reliable bonus that frees the character to worry less about survival and more about his\her aims and objectives. That makes the character more fun for me.
If you want to play in the danger zone, armor gives you a believable thicker skin. The character puts his armor on every day and faces the world protected - that's a work a day method. Temporary solutions just feel like I'm gaming the system especially over a long time.
I like to think my character's story is bigger than his encounter list. If I imagine his history as an uninterrupted string of not being ambushed and having his battles his way, I grow dissatisfied with the character. If you have this huge weakness before you cast your spells etc.... I think that would be exploited and you'd suffer. The game doesn't really allow for that sort of realism but I like to consider it.
I'd be interested to see your build at some point.
Sigurd
I'd be interested to see your build at some point.
Here you go. Constructive criticism welcome.
Stats (rolled w/ 4d6, drop lowest): 18, 15, 15, 15, 13, 10
Str: 15
Dex: 17
Con: 13
Int: 20
Wis: 13
Cha: 10
Favored class: wizard - always pick +1 HP
Traits: Reactionary, Magical Knack
1. Fighter - Toughness, Imp. Initiative
2. Wizard - Arcane Bond (Elven Curve Blade), Transmutation speciality, Barred schools: Enchantment, Evocation
3. Wizard - Arcane Armor Training
4. Wizard - +1 Con
5. Wizard - Wpn Focus (Elven Curve Blade)
6. Wizard - Craft Magic Arms and Armor
7. Eldritch Knight - Arcane Armor Mastery, Power Attack
8. Eldritch Knight - +1 Str
9. Fighter - Arcane Strike, Wpn Specialization (Elven Curve Blade)
10. Eldritch Knight
11. Eldritch Knight - Defensive Combat Training
12. Eldritch Knight - +1 Str, Vital Strike
13. Eldritch Knight - Greater Wpn Focus (Elven Curve Blade)
14. Eldritch Knight
15. Eldritch Knight - Imp. Vital Strike
16. Eldritch Knight - +1 Str, Critical Focus
17. Eldritch Knight - Greater Wpn Spec (Elven Curve Blade)
18. Wizard
19. Wizard - Penetrating Strike
20. Wizard - +1 str
Final hp ~175
BAB +16
Saves: fort +12, ref +8, will +10
Here you go. Constructive criticism welcome.
** spoiler omitted **
If you re taking 'Vital Strike' chain Spring Attack becomes incrediblly useful, even more if you´re in Shapesihfted or enlarged form since you force an AoO from your charging opponents.
'Arcane Armor Traning' chain costs you two feats and a swift action to achive something you could get with a magic robe (a robe with an enhancement bonus that stacks with your armor) and mage armor or bracers of armor +X and a Shield spell.
A +2 to hit and +4 to damage for 4 feats isn't that great when your are feat starved.
Also a quicken True Strike would make you autosucced in any special manuever you play.
My final suggestion is:
Ditching:
-Arcane Armor Training
-Arcane Armor Mastery
-Arcane Strike(the swift action is to expensive to my taste, but a very useful until eldritch knight 10)
-WF & WS chain
-Toughness(you aren't a front-liner)
-Craft Weapons and Armor (redundant with the bonded item, Craft Wounderous Items would be more useful overall)
-Penetrating Strike(by that level you could GMW your blade +4 and making it holy would avoid you most pertinent aligments DRs, else you can always enchante it up to +5 using the -40% discount for being useable only for elves with spellcraft)
Grab:
-Combat Expertise
-Imp Trip
-Greater Trip(a little bit of battle field control bett)
-Dodge
-Mobility
-Spring Attack
-Quicken Spell (or better yet Quickdraw and strap a couple Lesser Rods of Quicken Spell to to a place of your body you can reach easily, the item must be held not wield)
-Combet Reflexes
-Craft Wonderous Items(for your 5th level wizard bonus feat) or Extended Spell
-Greater Vital Strike (you can get it if you delay your 2nd fighter level 20)
This more of an Skirmisher. I found hard to imagine a tanking gish under the current rules.
Humbly,
Yawar
A lot of good stuff in this thread.
To answer your question it would depend on a few things. Whether the DM is allowing Abjurant Champion or Greater Mage Armor. Either and I'd say forget armor, Greater Mage Armor plus Abjurant Champion=win.
A lot of good stuff in this thread.
To answer your question it would depend on a few things. Whether the DM is allowing Abjurant Champion or Greater Mage Armor. Either and I'd say forget armor, Greater Mage Armor plus Abjurant Champion=win.
Core-only classes, so no Abjurant Champion. Greater Mage Armor will probably be ok, since the GM has already allowed several spells from Spell Compendium already.
Get some padded armor and enhance that. Use Mage armor with it (it won't stack with the padded armors armor bonus, but it will stack with the enhancement bonus from the padded armor) and it's like a chain shirt with an arcane failure chance of 5%.
IIRC, we had a thread on wildshape establishing that enhancement bonuses to armor were in fact bonuses to armor bonus, not to AC. Since Mage Armor gives an armor bonus, it wouldn't stack with any armor, enhanced or not - except perhaps if the enhancement weren't "mere" plusses...
Do you have any thoughts/rulings on that?
Great advice from both Insaneogeddon and Yawar. They provide some really useful advice for both options.
What Insaneogeddon describes is closer to how I originally pictured the role of this character. This is obviously the armor route. In true Gish fashion, he will never be able to out-tank the Paladin or out-blast the Evoker. But he will still be able to supplement both of them, and will be able to fill a buff/problem solve/terrain control role that the blaster won't.
Going the skirmisher road that Yawar describes means completely reworking the build, but much of the original concept would still be preserved. As a skirmisher, armor does become much less important. My focus on wpn focus and specialization were more for flavor reasons (being a master with my bonded weapon) than for mechanical - I can see how the cost of four feats seems very high for a +2/+4 to att and dmg. A magic-wielding skirmisher will certainly be fun to play, and I can max out the stealth skill and work alongside the rogue as a scout.
Toughness stays, though - already picked that, and I really like my extra HP.
If you don't wan't to go Skirmisher, then it would probably be the best to ditch the Vital Strike line in favor of Greater Trip, so this would be the adlustments:
Ditching:
-Arcane Armor Training
-Arcane Armor Mastery
-Arcane Strike(the swift action is to expensive to my taste, but a very useful until eldritch knight 10, but realatively a waste after)
-Craft Weapons and Armor (redundant with the bonded item, Craft Wounderous Items would be more useful overall)
-Vital Strike
- Imp. Vtal Strike
Grab:
-Combat Expertise
-Imp Trip
-Greater Trip(a little bit of battle field control bett)
-Quicken Spell (or better yet Quickdraw and strap a couple Lesser Rods of Quicken Spell to to a place of your body you can reach easily, the item must be held not wield)
-Combet Reflexes (mandatory when you have reach and Dex)
-Craft Wonderous Items(for your 5th level wizard bonus feat) or Extended Spell
I hope that with this fixes it resembles more the concept you had in mind.
Humbly,
Yawar
Yawar, if I go with your skirmisher-build, what would you recommend taking first - the Trip chain or the Spring attack chain?
Imp. Trip's effectivity depends on your acces to a way of quickening True Strike or acces to Big Srength bonuses via polymorphing. So I would say Sprimg Attack first.
And remember, if you DM allows spells from Spell Compendium Greater Mirror Image and Bite of X are your freinds.
With full access to Spell Compendium and Bites of X full attacks becomes more important and survivability increase due Greater Miror Image. If your DM allows free access I wolud go for my second post suggestion rather than the first.
Humbly,
Yawar
Grab:
-Combat Expertise
I understand you need this as a pre-req to the combat maneuver feats but I found the update lackluster compared to how they changed Power Attack which previously worked on a similar mechanic.
/semi-threadjack
One of the problems with the armored warrior is that armor only provides an AC bonus i.e. lessens chance they will be hit, but being hit is boolean you either are or aren't. At higher levels opponents attack bonus will far outstrip your AC unless you invest virtually every feat into some sort of boost (largely using splatbooks) and in the end a 20% miss chance is better and scales.
Why didn't they make Combat Expertise give an additional bonus if you're wielding a shield. It would make shield users much more effective and make this feat more attractive. Change expertise to say "if you're only wielding a one-handed weapon, two weapons, or a weapon and shield your dodge bonus increases by +2 for every attack penalty."
/end threadjack
A +6 to AC isn't a mariginal bonus, it comes with a -6 to hit that compensates it.
At lower levels the -1/+1 to hit/AC doesn´t pay but at later levels it really pays, but has the drawback of negating your chances of usnig Power Attack.
A +9 or +12 to a sheild weilder would be just plain overkill.
Humbly,
Yawar
A lot of good stuff in this thread.
To answer your question it would depend on a few things. Whether the DM is allowing Abjurant Champion or Greater Mage Armor. Either and I'd say forget armor, Greater Mage Armor plus Abjurant Champion=win.
Just a quick comment. Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor are not Abjuration spells. They are no more effective for Abjurant Champions than they are for anyone else.
Just a quick comment. Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor are not Abjuration spells. They are no more effective for Abjurant Champions than they are for anyone else.A lot of good stuff in this thread.
To answer your question it would depend on a few things. Whether the DM is allowing Abjurant Champion or Greater Mage Armor. Either and I'd say forget armor, Greater Mage Armor plus Abjurant Champion=win.
Never once did I say they did. However Shield is and a lvl 5 AbjCh can cast Shield as a swift action for +9 shield bonus. Greater Mage Armor, much like regular Mage Armor is an hour per level for 6 armor bonus IF your DM allows that spell. Between the two you can count on a +15 to your armor class every fight.
A +6 to AC isn't a mariginal bonus, it comes with a -6 to hit that compensates it.
At lower levels the -1/+1 to hit/AC doesn´t pay but at later levels it really pays, but has the drawback of negating your chances of usnig Power Attack.
A +9 or +12 to a sheild weilder would be just plain overkill.
Humbly,
Yawar
But then why would ANYONE carry a shield. +2 armor class is crap. Even +9, assuming a tower shield with +5 enhancement (btw I've never seen anyone enchant a shield past +1, barring random treasure, YMMV) at level 20 isn't all that spectacular.
By Paizo's own guidelines a CR20 creature should have a good attack at +30, meaning even a fighter with a 40 AC will be hit more than half the time. Let's assume lvl 20 fighter with a 1h and a tower shield, in full plate, and also a magnificent 22 Dex (to give him the maximum bonus with his full plate and 5 Armor Training). 10 (base) +14 (+5 full plate armor) +9 (+5 tower shield) +5 (amulet of natural armor) +5 (ring of protection) is 42. Heck let's say he has dodge and haste active, that's 44. That's about the best gear money can buy unless I'm forgetting something, and is probably investing a third of his wealth in doing so. And still that lvl 20 monster can hit him 35% of the time for full damage. This is the best possible example, a situation that is the MOST in favor of him having a shield, and it's still not all that great of one. He could just buy a ring of blinking and go into combat bare naked.
Just think also that because it pays off at 20 doesn't make it balanced at other levels of play or a particularly good idea. Shields still kind of suck IMO and Expertise not as good as it should be until much higher levels of play. *shrug*
Let's assume lvl 20 fighter with a 1h and a tower shield, in full plate, and also a magnificent 22 Dex (to give him the maximum bonus with his full plate and 5 Armor Training). 10 (base) +14 (+5 full plate armor) +9 (+5 tower shield) +5 (amulet of natural armor) +5 (ring of protection) is 42.
You forgot his Dexterity dude. That's 48 ;)
Let's assume lvl 20 fighter with a 1h and a tower shield, in full plate, and also a magnificent 22 Dex (to give him the maximum bonus with his full plate and 5 Armor Training). 10 (base) +14 (+5 full plate armor) +9 (+5 tower shield) +5 (amulet of natural armor) +5 (ring of protection) is 42.You forgot his Dexterity dude. That's 48 ;)
Also, what sort of 20th level fighter doesn't have a haste effect (from boots of speed if nothing else) in just about every combat? That adds +1 AC. If the fighter has taken the Dodge feat (which is required for Spring Attack), then that's another +1 AC for a total AC of 50. Even with only one of those, a +30 attack vs. AC 49 will only hit on a roll of 20.
I always scratch my head when people say things like "+9 AC (or +7 for a +5 heavy shield) isn't that big of a deal." Most of the people I know equip combat characters (even archers and two-handed weapon types) with a shield of some sort (at least a buckler or an animated shield).
Last night's session highlighted some of the challenges discussed in this thread.
Day 1:
Last session we had already explored much of the dungeon, so we were low on spells and hp. Since we are all 2nd level, spell slots are limited and buff-durations are either 2 hours (mage armor) or 2 mins (shield). I only had expeditious retreat as my last uncast spell and the minutes were ticking away at my mage armor. We did one more encounter, killed a few spiders, then retreated.
After barricading the secret door that lead down to the dungeon, we resupply and rest. Middle of the night, uninvited guests try to open the barricaded door, and I'm facing the choice of hiding in the back with my bow, taking -4 to shoot into melee og go fight in my underwear. Luckily, a well placed thunderstone chased away the intruders before they broke open the door.
Day 2:
For our first encounter, we expected a serious challenge, so I had both shield and mage armor up before we opened the door, and protection from evil ready (didn't want to cast it beforehand, in case we came up against an unintelligent monster). Sure enough, we get jumped by a Grell, but not until we have crossed the room carefully, burning half of my shield duration. I cast prot. from evil while the Grell munches on the rogue. He is paralyzed and about to be lifted away by the time it is my turn again. I get one charge in, the the Grell flies off to a higher level, and we have to spend more time to chase it down. Not many rounds left on my shield when we finally get it, and had the dice rolled differently, I could easily have been in mid melee when it went out.
A bit later, I have the misfortune of being the target of a dark creeper tag-team. I don't have time to cast shield, but mage armor is still active, so i have the same protection as if I had been wearing a chain shirt. Not much good it did me. Between the bad guys surprise, charge, flanking, poison and a natural 1 on initiative on my part, I was reduced to 0 hp and down 3 points of STR before it was even my turn to act. The rest of the team engage, I manage to 5-foot-step my way to safety, get a heal from the druid and proceed to crit hit with my curve blade for mucho damage, despite my now nerfed str-bonus.
So from these experiences, it seems I'll really have my work cut out for me if I wan't to be a front-line fighter. A skirmisher with a few ranged options is starting to look more viable.
Let's assume lvl 20 fighter with a 1h and a tower shield, in full plate, and also a magnificent 22 Dex (to give him the maximum bonus with his full plate and 5 Armor Training). 10 (base) +14 (+5 full plate armor) +9 (+5 tower shield) +5 (amulet of natural armor) +5 (ring of protection) is 42.You forgot his Dexterity dude. That's 48 ;)Also, what sort of 20th level fighter doesn't have a haste effect (from boots of speed if nothing else) in just about every combat? That adds +1 AC. If the fighter has taken the Dodge feat (which is required for Spring Attack), then that's another +1 AC for a total AC of 50. Even with only one of those, a +30 attack vs. AC 49 will only hit on a roll of 20.
I always scratch my head when people say things like "+9 AC (or +7 for a +5 heavy shield) isn't that big of a deal." Most of the people I know equip combat characters (even archers and two-handed weapon types) with a shield of some sort (at least a buckler or an animated shield).
Armor bonus only matters when it's high enough that an opponent won't hit you. This sounds intuitively obvious but it seems to be something you're overlooking. A fighter with an AC of 48 vs a monster with a +30 to hit gets a pretty good benefit for another +1 armor, but one with only a 24 AC against that same monster gains NO benefit until he gets his AC to 33. 19 AC at lvl 1 is amazing, 19 AC at lvl 10 is horrible. 20% miss chance scales infinitely.
A high level character with an amazing AC doesn't actually reduce damage taken. My argument is more about the dynamics of missing and how conceptually armor should fit a different niche. Armor does zero until you reach a certain point, which is a mechanic I don't like and I was just arguing that feats meant to represent your ability to defend yourself better by forgoing fighting prowess should perhaps be more useful for someone wielding a shield.
That so crazy?
Let's assume lvl 20 fighter with a 1h and a tower shield, in full plate, and also a magnificent 22 Dex (to give him the maximum bonus with his full plate and 5 Armor Training). 10 (base) +14 (+5 full plate armor) +9 (+5 tower shield) +5 (amulet of natural armor) +5 (ring of protection) is 42.You forgot his Dexterity dude. That's 48 ;)Also, what sort of 20th level fighter doesn't have a haste effect (from boots of speed if nothing else) in just about every combat? That adds +1 AC. If the fighter has taken the Dodge feat (which is required for Spring Attack), then that's another +1 AC for a total AC of 50. Even with only one of those, a +30 attack vs. AC 49 will only hit on a roll of 20.
I always scratch my head when people say things like "+9 AC (or +7 for a +5 heavy shield) isn't that big of a deal." Most of the people I know equip combat characters (even archers and two-handed weapon types) with a shield of some sort (at least a buckler or an animated shield).
Armor bonus only matters when it's high enough that an opponent won't hit you. This sounds intuitively obvious but it seems to be something you're overlooking. A fighter with an AC of 48 vs a monster with a +30 to hit gets a pretty good benefit for another +1 armor, but one with only a 24 AC against that same monster gains NO benefit until he gets his AC to 33. 19 AC at lvl 1 is amazing, 19 AC at lvl 10 is horrible. 20% miss chance scales infinitely.
A high level character with an amazing AC doesn't actually reduce damage taken. My argument is more about the dynamics of missing and how conceptually armor should fit a different niche. Armor does zero until you reach a certain point, which is a mechanic I don't like and I was just arguing that feats meant to represent your ability to defend yourself better by forgoing fighting prowess should perhaps be more useful for someone wielding a shield.
That so crazy?
I understand you, but that's what fighting defensivelly entitles, sometimes it's REALLY worth it, although most people do not use such actions.
The thing about armor though, is that the flat AC bonus is just a single part of it, the abilities that armors and shield can magically get are indeed awesome, if you know what you are looking for.
I agree with Treantmonk's recommendations:
Use the Shield (w/ MM Extend Rod?) and Mage Armor spells, and grab Mithril Buckler/ Padded Armor (whose Enchants stack with the spells). I really wouldn't invest in the Arcane Armor Training, there's better uses for your Feats (and Swift Actions eventually - if you have Barbarian levels ABSOLUTELY not).
As he said, Mirror Image (and other miss chance effects, though Mirror Image is really the most effective) and Invis/Greater Invis are generally more effective than AC, though plenty of higher level opponents CAN see thru them. The thing about the Buckler/Padded Armor is that you can add special qualities just as well as somebody with Full Plate (Fortification, etc) and using BOTH Buckler and Padded this way lets you split the bonuses to keep the price down.
Amulets of Natural Armor are another good option (especially if you're spending Armor Bonuses on Special Qualities, it's probably cheaper to grab some Natural Armor Bonus than jack up your effective Armor Bonus really high thru SQ's), though obviously it's competing for a slot (Amulet).
It should be said that "the other" gish build (Dragon Disciple) already gets decent Natural Armor progression between Bloodline and DD itself.
About the only reason I can see to go against this line of thinking is to grab some Mithril Fullplate so you can put Ghosttouch SQ on it, to really buff your AC vs. Incorporeal effects... Though again, Miss Chance effects (Mirror Image, Grt Invis) are GENERALLY more effective EXCEPT vs. opponents with True Seeing/ other means of seeing thru them.
Last night's session highlighted some of the challenges discussed in this thread.
Day 1:
Last session we had already explored much of the dungeon, so we were low on spells and hp. Since we are all 2nd level, spell slots are limited and buff-durations are either 2 hours (mage armor) or 2 mins (shield). I only had expeditious retreat as my last uncast spell and the minutes were ticking away at my mage armor. We did one more encounter, killed a few spiders, then retreated.
After barricading the secret door that lead down to the dungeon, we resupply and rest. Middle of the night, uninvited guests try to open the barricaded door, and I'm facing the choice of hiding in the back with my bow, taking -4 to shoot into melee og go fight in my underwear. Luckily, a well placed thunderstone chased away the intruders before they broke open the door.
Day 2:
For our first encounter, we expected a serious challenge, so I had both shield and mage armor up before we opened the door, and protection from evil ready (didn't want to cast it beforehand, in case we came up against an unintelligent monster). Sure enough, we get jumped by a Grell, but not until we have crossed the room carefully, burning half of my shield duration. I cast prot. from evil while the Grell munches on the rogue. He is paralyzed and about to be lifted away by the time it is my turn again. I get one charge in, the the Grell flies off to a higher level, and we have to spend more time to chase it down. Not many rounds left on my shield when we finally get it, and had the dice rolled differently, I could easily have been in mid melee when it went out.
A bit later, I have the misfortune of being the target of a dark creeper tag-team. I don't have time to cast shield, but mage armor is still active, so i have the same protection as if I had been wearing a chain shirt. Not much good it did me. Between the bad guys surprise, charge, flanking, poison and a natural 1 on initiative on my part, I was reduced to 0 hp and down 3 points of STR before it...
At the level you're playing at if you want to melee as a wizard my suggestion would be power attack, physical armor, and truestrike. You can put out enough damage to 1 hit kill most stuff with a truestrike power attack with a 2H weapon and your armor won't mess with it since no somatic components. Improved buckler defense is going to be your friend if allowed. Scrolls of mage armor and shield are cheap and well worth scribing yourself.
That being said you're going to have trouble if you try to be the party tank. May be better off using enlarge person and a reach weapon to kill things as they try to close on you if you're wanting to melee. It'll get better as you level up but you still don't want to be soaking up much damage.
So I'm thinking of my own build and I'm leaning toward an Elf edritch knight that is still mostly a spellcaster. Not a great strength but an excellent intelligence followed by Dex.
1 Barbarian - Mostly for the High HP and Extra movement and Martial Weaps.
2-6 Wizard - Probably bonded weap. Curved Blade
7-17 Eldritch Knight
18-19 Loremaster
20 - ?
I expect I'll be heavily into spellcasting and weapon finesse Curved Blade.
I don't expect to be a front line fighter but I don't want to be a push over either.
What do people think?
Is this ok to continue discussion or would people prefer I start a new thread?
Sigurd
So I'm thinking of my own build and I'm leaning toward an Elf edritch knight that is still mostly a spellcaster. Not a great strength but an excellent intelligence followed by Dex.
1 Barbarian - Mostly for the High HP and Extra movement and Martial Weaps.
2-6 Wizard - Probably bonded weap. Curved Blade
7-17 Eldritch Knight
18-19 Loremaster
20 - ?I expect I'll be heavily into spellcasting and weapon finesse Curved Blade.
I don't expect to be a front line fighter but I don't want to be a push over either.
What do people think?
Is this ok to continue discussion or would people prefer I start a new thread?Sigurd
I would encourage you to definately not do weapon finesse as a melee character. It looks nice, but look at what you'll be capable of doing later on. If you're doing more casting than anything else you're going to want your casting stat high unless you're doing no save spells like buffs. As a pathfinder Gish my preferences would be using bard as the spellcasting class. If you have to be a wiz/sorc I would consider these builds if looking for a good power level. The nat armor from draconic bloodline is a great boost for gish-chars, but misschance is king when it works.
2 pal/(1)2monk/2(3)sorc/4 DD/10 EK - 10DD/4EK - or 8 DD 6 EK I wouldn't finish with loremaster it doesn't fit the fighter/mage concept to me
2(5) barb/3 Sor/4 DD/10 EK - or above combinations
But again I'll plug the bard
TWF kukri bard
2 fighter/8bard/10 EK with magical knack and ioun stone gets level 17 bard spells known, 20th caster level, fight in armor without penalty, and in one round can give an oponent -6 saves/attack/skills via sickening critical, move action dirge of doom, and swift crushing despair. If you don't crit you can full attack and swift dirge of doom and if you full attack you will probably crit with dual kukri's and add sickening for -4 saves/attack/skills.
You mentioned that your DM is allowing content from the Spell Compendium. How about the Magic Item Compendium? If so, look at the Twilight armor enhancement, which reduces spell failure by 10%. It's a +1 bonus, so a +1 Twilight Mithral Shirt will cost 5,000gp for a +5 AC bonus.
At the level you're playing at if you want to melee as a wizard my suggestion would be power attack, physical armor, and truestrike. You can put out enough damage to 1 hit kill most stuff with a truestrike power attack with a 2H weapon and your armor won't mess with it since no somatic components. Improved buckler defense is going to be your friend if allowed. Scrolls of mage armor and shield are cheap and well worth scribing yourself.
That being said you're going to have trouble if you try to be the party tank. May be better off using enlarge person and a reach weapon to kill things as they try to close on you if you're wanting to melee. It'll get better as you level up but you still don't want to be soaking up much damage.
Nice tactics, which have the added benefit of just being a low-level solution that don't cost feats. It could be worth to do this while building up a more skirmish-oriented character.
As to being the party tank - with a dwarven paladin in the party, it would be a misuse of resources if I try to outtank him. Better to focus on a role that compliments him instead.
Is this ok to continue discussion or would people prefer I start a new thread?
Of course you can continue discussion here. This is well on the way to becomming a very good tread on gish tactics - which was the idea in the first place.
Mage Armor and Shield spells grant armor and shield bonuses respectively. They would not stack with bonuses by actual armor and shield although they can overlap.
I had the impression that M.A. and Shield would not stack with Armor/Shield Bonuses themselves, but WOULD with Armor/Shield ENHANCEMENTS. That was my impression at least...
Anyhow, somebody DID mention the efficacy of physical armor at low levels, and how you could avoid Somatic spells (or not prepare them routinely if a Wizard) and thus not be hampered by ASF%: I agree this is a decent schtick, especially for something like a 1-Caster level-dip build (or 1 Caster + DD). Your spell selection is alot less, but if you can make use of those spells and are happy with that, this can work great and you still get +2 Will Save, Class Abilities & Skills.
Armor and Shield Enhancements are not considered separately, they are part of the total armor/shield bonus granted by the item they're bonded to, in otherwords the +5 buckler is giving you a total of a +6 Armor Bonus, not a +5 Armor or some other kind of Bonus and +1 Bonus but one single +6 Armor Bonus.
OK, I can see that, it makes sense why Armor Bonus is cheaper than alternatives (NA, etc) because it's not just a floating bonus, but requires fixation to an item. The way it's presented does sort of confuse the issue, by saying Enhancement bonus is another Bonus Type...
My suggestion would be:
Use Mage armor and Shield, and when you get ready to enchant, buff up a mithril buckler. The enhancement bonus of the buckler will stack with your shield spell - so you'll get the protection value of a chain shirt and an enhanced tower shield. Not bad.
...
Get some padded armor and enhance that. Use Mage armor with it (it won't stack with the padded armors armor bonus, but it will stack with the enhancement bonus from the padded armor) and it's like a chain shirt with an arcane failure chance of 5%.
Is that enough options?
Enhancement bonuses from armor and shields do not stack with the armor/shield bonus provided by other items.
The only benefit you will benefit of from wearing armor/shields with those spells are special abilities like ghost touch etc. Enhancement bonuses enhance the item they are placed upon not the character wearing the item and as such they will overlap with the spell effects.