I'm attempting to reduce the amount of tables required on a druid character sheet, and I'm staring hard at the wording of the elemental body spells.
Skipping to Elemental Body IV.
This spell functions as elemental body III, except that it also
allows you to assume the form of a Huge air, earth, fre, or
water elemental. The abilities you gain depend upon the type of
elemental into which you change. You are also immune to critical
hits and sneak attacks while in elemental form and gain DR 5/—.
Air elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size
bonus to your Strength, +6 size bonus to your Dexterity, and a +4
natural armor bonus. You also gain fy 120 feet (perfect).
Earth elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +8 size
bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +4 size
bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus.
Fire elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +6 size
bonus to your Dexterity, a +4 size bonus to your Constitution, and a
+4 natural armor bonus.
Water elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size
bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +8 size
bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus. You also
gain swim 120 feet.
Question 1) Are these speeds mistakes? Even the biggest of the biggest of elementals are slower than this. You can outrace air elementals with this spell.
Question 2) Common sense would dictate that the size bonuses only apply for the huge size elemental that you polymorph into, but rules as written state that this occurs across the board. Do they overwrite for all elemental sizes?
Question 3) Do the speeds of Elemental Body IV overwrite the fly/swim speeds of all previous elementals? As written, it does. If the answer to this question is yes, but the answer to the previous question is no, then that only adds to the confusion.
Thanks.
Also, what kind of light do fire elementals give off? How do they compare with darkness spells?
Do they even need darkvision in the first place?
Also note there is no formal definition of Vortex on page 306, as the bestiary instructs you to go find for the Water Elemental. However, we could use the definition for Whirlwind, instead.
1) No, if you turn into a huge elemental you gain 120ft speed. Sure, that makes you faster than real elementals, but on the other hand, you don't get their str,dex & con since those are just flat bonuses.
2) Common sense is right.
3) I don't think so. The speed is specifically mentioned in the huge elemental-specs part, not in the first part where the amount of DR you get is described etc.
Question 2) Common sense would dictate that the size bonuses only apply for the huge size elemental that you polymorph into, but rules as written state that this occurs across the board. Do they overwrite for all elemental sizes?
Actually I think its a tough one.
As far as I know Size bonuses do not stack, but only by adding the bonuses from Elemental body I-IV does a druid come anywhere near the abilitiscores of the actual elementals.
Question 1) Are these speeds mistakes? Even the biggest of the biggest of elementals are slower than this. You can outrace air elementals with this spell.Question 2) Common sense would dictate that the size bonuses only apply for the huge size elemental that you polymorph into, but rules as written state that this occurs across the board. Do they overwrite for all elemental sizes?
Question 3) Do the speeds of Elemental Body IV overwrite the fly/swim speeds of all previous elementals? As written, it does. If the answer to this question is yes, but the answer to the previous question is no, then that only adds to the confusion.
Thanks.
1-It says in the polymorph section under the transmutation school that
If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. pg 212 & 213 of the core rule book.
To me you would get the 100ft per round. Why EB4 lets an Air Elemental fly at 120 when an Air Elemental doesn't exist in the beastiary that can is beyond me. The same thing with Earth Elementals not having the Push ability in the Beastiary but EB1 says they have the ability. To me if the creature you turn into doesn't have the ability that the spell says it may have then you can't use that ability in that form.
2-Since they are size bonuses I would say you only get them for becoming that size for the bonus.
3-I would say the answer to 3 is the same answer to 1.
I hope I am wrong, personaly, because wild shape in general is weak. It wouldn't be so bad if the equipment you need to have to make it worth using at all didn't cost so much to have like wild armor or amulet of mighty fist.
Question 2) Common sense would dictate that the size bonuses only apply for the huge size elemental that you polymorph into, but rules as written state that this occurs across the board. Do they overwrite for all elemental sizes?
Actually I think its a tough one.
As far as I know Size bonuses do not stack, but only by adding the bonuses from Elemental body I-IV does a druid come anywhere near the abilitiscores of the actual elementals.
A druid with a 16 STR at level 1 and puts 2 points into it at 8 and 12 (I put the other points in Wis :P) has an 18 STR +6 for a belt of str and +8 for turning into a huge earth elemental has a str of 32(if you don't have a +6 belt then bulls str makes it 30. The Elder Earth Elemental you would be emulating has a str of 34. I would call that close.
A druid with a 16 STR at level 1 and puts 2 points into it at 8 and 12 (I put the other points in Wis :P) has an 18 STR +6 for a belt of str and +8 for turning into a huge earth elemental has a str of 32(if you don't have a +6 belt then bulls str makes it 30. The Elder Earth Elemental you would be emulating has a str of 34. I would call that close.
I was working off the assumtion of 10-11 ability scores and no other enhancements.
But you are of course right and that really settles it for me :)
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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1) Are these speeds mistakes?
2) Common sense would dictate that the size bonuses only apply for the huge size elemental
3) Do the speeds of Elemental Body IV overwrite the fly/swim speeds of all previous elementals?
1) You only gain their speed up to what the spell provides.
2) You gain the size bonuses of the spell, but nothing from the size change.
3) No, you take the speeds from the creature, limit by what the spells provide, and use the result. The speeds are intended to be faster so that future creatures that this spell works on may allow the higher speeds.
Also, what kind of light do fire elementals give off? How do they compare with darkness spells?
No rules for this, but in my mind fire isn't very bright (especially red fire.)
It would have no interaction with Darkness.
Also note there is no formal definition of Vortex on page 306, as the bestiary instructs you to go find for the Water Elemental. However, we could use the definition for Whirlwind, instead.
Typo?
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The others are correct in that the Elemental Body spell lists the maximum speed available as that elemental. Reference the Transmutation (Polymorph) subschool in the Spells section for more information. Simply put, whenever a Polymorph spell such as Elemental Body, Beast Shape, etc. gives you an ability with X variable (Darkvision 60 ft., Fly 120 ft., etc.) you do not gain that ability precisely. Rather, you gain the ability of the creature you change into, with their speed/distance/whatever UNLESS that exceeds what the spell says.
In the case of the air elemental, let's pretend one gave a fly speed of 100 ft. When you used elemental body to turn into it, you would have a fly of 100 ft, as this does not exceed the max. Now let's pretend the elemental has a fly speed of 160 ft. You would only gain a speed of 120 ft., as that is the maximum the spell can provide.
Size bonuses do not stack, you only gain the listed bonus that the spell provides. This was an intentional 'nerf' to the druid's polymorphing abilities. A druid needs to have decent physical scores to be just as 'good' as what they transform into, or at least close.
I would use torch-light for the fire-elemental, in a sense. Measure 20 ft. out from the elemental in all directions. If the elemental is huge, then that is an approximate 55 ft. diameter of light, including the elemental.
Vortex is covered near the top of the water elemental.
Vortex (Su) A water elemental can create a whirlpool as a standard action, at will. This ability functions identically to the whirlwind special attack, but can only form underwater and cannot leave the water.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethysasknethys@karuikage.net
While Paizo did a great job at toning down wildshape, it's unfortunately, like reading the code of federal regulations.
Personally, I'm leaving the speed of the huge air elemental at 120, unless directed otherwise, because the spell states it very plainly. I doubt it'll even affect gameplay.
I just hope that this section gets rewritten into something a little more plain. As it is, I have to maintain a matrix of everything that changes when I polymorph, so I'm not taking up half an hour calculating everything based on size changes, stat changes, ac changes, etc.
As always, I appreciate the responses.
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While Paizo did a great job at toning down wildshape, it's unfortunately, like reading the code of federal regulations.
Personally, I'm leaving the speed of the huge air elemental at 120, unless directed otherwise, because the spell states it very plainly. I doubt it'll even affect gameplay.
I just hope that this section gets rewritten into something a little more plain. As it is, I have to maintain a matrix of everything that changes when I polymorph, so I'm not taking up half an hour calculating everything based on size changes, stat changes, ac changes, etc.
As always, I appreciate the responses.
If it is needed, you can find the relevant text here, under Polymorph in the Spells section.
Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead.
In short, if the form you choose has the listed ability or better that the spell provides, you just gain the ability the spell provides. If it has a lesser ability of the same type, you get the lesser one.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
asknethys@karuikage.net
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Advantage of an elemental is that you can still wield weapons (The elemental sub type says that they are proficient with weapons) and can cast spells (They can assume the form of a humanoid, have a language so they can speak too). Material components might be difficult on a fire elemental, but all the others would be fine with a polymorphic pouch. In addition to the very, very good stats that they get.