In the pathfinder Bestiary there is a detailed table on how much damage certain natural weapons deal based on their size, but I can't find an explanation about a + on some monsters.
For example, the Half-Fiend Minotaur, on page 171 of the Pathfinder bestiary, has a an attack:
gore +6 (1d6+3), and a powerful charge gore +13 2d6 +9
On page 302 the table explains the 1d6 comes from it's size, but it doesn't explain the +3. Is that something natural that would be unchanged even if it were changed by, say, enlarge person, or reduce person?
And powerful charge, described on page 303 doesn't really explain where it gets that from and how to apply it when size changes.
Would appreciate any information to clear this up for me.
I believe the +3 is half his STR bonus, which is used for secondary attacks with natural weapons.
The +9 to damage with the powerful charge seem to be 1 1/2 his STR bonus, which fits with other monsters which have this power.
The damage dice for powerful charge are probably adjusted arbitrarily for each monster (although they were double the normal gore damage dice for every monster I checked).
Thanks allot! That makes allot of sense!
oh, in the case of powerful charge, would that be 1 extra Dice, or what? because that also increased.
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oh, in the case of powerful charge, would that be 1 extra Dice, or what? because that also increased.
B p303 just says deals extra damage. If you notice the exact nature of the extra damage is left up to each monster. Some deal 0.5 STR more, some deal 1.0 STR more, etc.
In your case, the normal Gore deals 0.5 STR (3) and the Powerful Charge deals 1.5 STR (9) damage.
We don't even know if this is based on STR.
It may be that there are some errors (like all the Gore attacks that are not normally 1.5 STR are in error.)
That seems... messy. ok, lets go with a specific example.
the Half-Fiend Minotaur, has: 23 STR, +6 STR Modifier --- gore +6 (1d6+3) and (gore +13, 2d6+9) with powerful charge.
the Minotaur has: 19 STR, +4 STR Modifier --- gore +4 (1d6+4) and
(, 2d6+6) with powerful charge.
In both cases the Gore here appears to be the STR Modifier, and the powerful charge seems to be 1.5 times STR Modifier. and there is an extra 1d6 each case too. So it appears the dice roll is just doubled whatever would be on the table, and the STR really does affect it. It doesn't explain how attack improves. I imagine that's what Minoataur's gore +11 means.
But then the Rhinoceros seems to be different. STR 22, +6 STR Modifier --- gore +8 (2d6+9), (gore 4d6+12) with powerful charge.
If it goes by strength in that case, then it's times 1.5 for Gore, and times 2 for powerful charge. The only thing that seems consistant so far is that the dice roll appears to double, but then even that isn't making much sense since both the Minotaur and the Rhinoceros are large creatures so the creatures appears to defy the table for how a gore attack works. It says 1d8 for large creatures, but here I see 1d6, 2d6, etc. for large creatures.
To make it even more confusing, the Rhinoceros, Woolly is also different but the same size.
STR 28, +9 STR Modifier --- gore +14 (2d8+13), (gore, 4d8+18) with powerful charge.
So here are two related creatures of the same size, compared to two other creatures of the same size, and there doesn't seem to be any logic to how gore attacks work. And Powerful charge isn't at all explained in a usable way, so I can't figure out how to properly adapt characters for a size change situation.
Can anyone shed light on this? It seems the more I try to figure it out the more confused I get.
There are obviously a couple of minor errors in those entries.
I made a post here, giving you credit for finding them, because some 'Str multipliers' are not exactly right.
For the Gore damage, you should note that the Universal Monster rules regarding Natural Attack damages have a note that says:
"Base Damage by Size *
*Individual creatures vary from this value as appropriate"
So, basically, the damage dice of the Gore for the Minotaur and Half-Minotaur is slightly sub-par (1d6 instead of 1d8), probably because the creature has also a Greataxe iterative attack (and so, to balance the damage output); the Rhinoceros (a creature which has only just a gore attack) is slightly more powerful (2d6 instead of 1d8); and the Wholly Rhinoceros (a creature which is supposed to 'impale' you with its horn) is decidedly more powerful (2d8). The Powerful Charge Gore simply deals double dice damage (2d8 become 4d8, and so on) - however, it's true (as stated above) that some creatures deal 1.5x Str on their Gore when making a Powerful Charge, while other creatures deal 2x Str bonus.
For the Hit bonus of the Gore and Powerful Charge Gore, however, you should remember that when a Gore is used in conjunction with a Manufactured Weapon, it becomes a secondary attack (and so, it applies a -5 to hit - or -2 if the creature has the Multiattack feat - and uses only 0,5 Str bonus). When the Gore is used as a Powerful Charge, it adds the +2 from the Charge action (I checked, and the hit roll is right).
Just my 2c.
There are obviously a couple of minor errors in those entries.
I made a post here, giving you credit for finding them, because some 'Str multipliers' are not exactly right.
For the Gore damage, you should note that the Universal Monster rules regarding Natural Attack damages have a note that says:
"Base Damage by Size *
*Individual creatures vary from this value as appropriate"So, basically, the damage dice of the Gore for the Minotaur and Half-Minotaur is slightly sub-par (1d6 instead of 1d8), probably because the creature has also a Greataxe iterative attack (and so, to balance the damage output); the Rhinoceros (a creature which has only just a gore attack) is slightly more powerful (2d6 instead of 1d8); and the Wholly Rhinoceros (a creature which is supposed to 'impale' you with its horn) is decidedly more powerful (2d8).
I see... still, that kind of stuff could still use some clarification in rules. Maybe if there was an extra modifier for number of legs in addition to size, or an additional monster ability for specific cases to deviate from the rules. because as it looks now there is really nothing to help me recalculate damage if a Minotaur got bigger or smaller. Or, if the weapon is the reason for that, an explanation would help for cases where a Minotaur might not be holding one. Suppose, for example, you make a player character and that character starts without a weapon. Or suppose I make a new monsters for a campaign and want to base it on an existing monster with changes. Without some kind of standard, even across different monsters of the same size, it makes that very hard to do.
The Powerful Charge Gore simply deals double dice damage (2d8 become 4d8, and so on) - however, it's true (as stated above) that some creatures deal 1.5x Str on their Gore when making a Powerful Charge, while other creatures deal 2x Str bonus.
For the Hit bonus of the Gore and Powerful Charge Gore, however, you should remember that when a Gore is used in conjunction with a Manufactured Weapon, it becomes a secondary attack (and so, it applies a -5 to hit - or -2 if the creature has the Multiattack feat - and uses only 0,5 Str bonus). When the Gore is used as a Powerful Charge, it adds the +2 from the Charge action (I checked, and the hit roll is right).
Just my 2c.
Ok, so if a Minotaur was not holding another a Manufactured Weapon, the gore would be correct, and if it is holding it, it would not be? What about if it got a claw and bite attack from a half-fiend template? How would other natural Primary weapons change?
Can anyone shed light on this?As I said, there are inconsistencies and there are no rules to clear them up. Only the developers can clear these up.
I agree. We certainly need developer feedback on this one. I need to be able to take the stats for a given monster, and understand the rules in such a way as to allow me to adapt it to a variety of circumstances.
Creative Director
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As I mentioned on the other thread, when a monster wields a manufactured weapon (as in the case of the minotaur), all of that monster's natural attacks become secondary attacks.
If the minotaur were to attack with only his gore, he'd treat it as a full attack, but he'd have to not be wielding his axe at the time. It doesn't matter if he's actually ATTACKING with his axe... all it takes to turn a natural attack into a secondary attack is to be holding a manufactured weapon in your hands. Otherwise the rules for things like attacks of opportunity get all weird.
As for Powerful Charge... the actual amount of STR bonus one adds to the charge can vary. There's no set-in-stone value for this. It's USUALLY calculated at twice the normal gore attack, as if the attack were a critical hit (similar to how a lance works on a charge), but not always. It varies by the creature.
As I mentioned on the other thread, when a monster wields a manufactured weapon (as in the case of the minotaur), all of that monster's natural attacks become secondary attacks.
If the minotaur were to attack with only his gore, he'd treat it as a full attack, but he'd have to not be wielding his axe at the time. It doesn't matter if he's actually ATTACKING with his axe... all it takes to turn a natural attack into a secondary attack is to be holding a manufactured weapon in your hands. Otherwise the rules for things like attacks of opportunity get all weird.
As for Powerful Charge... the actual amount of STR bonus one adds to the charge can vary. There's no set-in-stone value for this. It's USUALLY calculated at twice the normal gore attack, as if the attack were a critical hit (similar to how a lance works on a charge), but not always. It varies by the creature.
Ok, let me see if I understand this now...
In the case of the Half-Fiend Minotaur, it uses 1d6 instead of 1d8. So does that mean if a natural attack is secondary, then on the chart on page 302 I would shift down one from large to medium? So, for example, if a Minotaur was shrunk to a medium he would instead use 1d4, and if grown to huge he would use 1d8, for as long as his gore attack was secondary? And he would follow a similar system for bite and claw?
Or does it only appear that was because of, say, a -2 to damage, so if he became huge instead of being 1d8 it would be 2d6 -2?
and whatever dice would be rolled for it's given size, would always be double?
Now in the case of Gore and Powerful Charge I am still a bit fuzzy. It's 0.5 for Half-Fiend Minotaur, and 1.0 for Minotaur. What is the original affect STR would have without holding the weapon, and in what way does weapon affect it?
Also, in the case of the half-fiend minotaur:
bite +6 (1d8+3), gore +6 (1d6+3)
but on the table both bite and gore, for all sizes, appear to have the exact same dice roll. If all attacks become secondary when holding an axe, why the difference between these two natural attacks?
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Ok, so if a Minotaur was not holding another a Manufactured Weapon, the gore would be correct? What about if it got a claw and bite attack from a half-fiend template? How would other natural Primary weapons change?
We certainly need developer feedback on this one.
Secondary weapons (and all natural weapons when using a Manufactured weapon) get 0.5 STR unless otherwise stated. Without manufactured all weapons are primary or secondary as designed on page 302.
We just got dev feedback:
As for Powerful Charge... the actual amount of STR bonus one adds to the charge can vary. There's no set-in-stone value for this.
In short, you (Elliander) are asking a lot of specific questions where there are no rules (or formulas) to provide answers.
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Half-Fiend Minotaur
Greataxe (two claws ignored), bite 1d8+3, gore 1d6+3
Bite based on Large size = 1d8
Both Bite and Gore are secondary (because of the greataxe) and the two claws (also granted with bite by HFtemplate) are ignored.
Because they are secondary, they are at half STR mod (+3)
This explanation help?
Basically, look at the source monster for how to work Powerful Charge since it is the rule that depends on the monster (with no "set" rules.)
um.. sort of. Still not really clear on how, as a secondary, the damage is changed. Is it -2, or a lower size category? and why would gore be affected for being secondary but not bite?
I am not really understanding, for example, why the Minotaur has a stronger Gore attack than the Half-Fiend Minotaur.
The Primary Secondary thing I get, and I think I am starting to understand the double dice, and the STR thing. I also get the 2 claws things too. It seems to me that the two claws are ignored because he is holding a greataxe, (as in, how can you slash something with your claws if your claws are gripped around a weapon?) so I would imagine he would get the two claw attack if he dropped the greataxe.
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um.. sort of. Still not really clear on how, as a secondary, the damage is changed. Is it -2, or a lower size category? and why would gore be affected for being secondary but not bite?
I am not really understanding, for example, why the Minotaur has a stronger Gore attack than the Half-Fiend Minotaur.
The Primary Secondary thing I get, and I think I am starting to understand the double dice, and the STR thing. I also get the 2 claws things too. It seems to me that the two claws are ignored because he is holding a greataxe, (as in, how can you slash something with your claws if your claws are gripped around a weapon?) so I would imagine he would get the two claw attack if he dropped the greataxe.
Yeah; the claws don't matter since he has to use both hands for his axe.
I think I see where some of your other questions are coming from: Table 3–1 on page 302. The damage values listed for the various attacks there are the Standard damages for those attacks. In many cases, a monster's actual damage inflicted with a natural weapon will NOT exactly match up to the damage dice listed on Table 3–1; this is the case of the Large minotaur's gore. According to table 3–1, a large gore should do 1d8 damage, but when we statted up the minotaur, he ended up doing a lot more damage than a CR 4 creature should do. As a result, we decided to tone down his gore attack slightly from what a standard minotaur's gore does, and dropped the gore to 1d6 instead of 1d8.
In other cases, we significantly increased a monster's natural weapon, especially in a case where the monster has only one natural weapon. Take the tyrannosaurus, for example; it's a Gargantuan monster, so Table 3–1 says its bite should do a base of 2d8 damage. But that's not enough to give a tyrannosaurus enough damage with its sole attack, so we decided to up its bite attack to a base of 4d6 damage.
Basically... what it boils down to is that Table 3–1 lists AVERAGES. It's a handy place to send folks for damage values with templates that add natural attacks (such as the half fiend) without having to take up a lot of extra room in the monster's actual writeup, but it's not something that should be taken as the law when it comes to ALL monster natural attacks.
Building monsters is not just mechanics. There's an awful lot of art to it as well, and knowing when to change the rules to make the monster do what you want it to do and not skew it too far out of its CR is a tricky thing. It's not something you can encapsulate in a formula.
I think I see where some of your other questions are coming from: Table 3–1 on page 302. The damage values listed for the various attacks there are the Standard damages for those attacks. In many cases, a monster's actual damage inflicted with a natural weapon will NOT exactly match up to the damage dice listed on Table 3–1; this is the case of the Large minotaur's gore. According to table 3–1, a large gore should do 1d8 damage, but when we statted up the minotaur, he ended up doing a lot more damage than a CR 4 creature should do. As a result, we decided to tone down his gore attack slightly from what a standard minotaur's gore does, and dropped the gore to 1d6 instead of 1d8.In other cases, we significantly increased a monster's natural weapon, especially in a case where the monster has only one natural weapon. Take the tyrannosaurus, for example; it's a Gargantuan monster, so Table 3–1 says its bite should do a base of 2d8 damage. But that's not enough to give a tyrannosaurus enough damage with its sole attack, so we decided to up its bite attack to a base of 4d6 damage.
Basically... what it boils down to is that Table 3–1 lists AVERAGES. It's a handy place to send folks for damage values with...
I think I see now about the dice. That does make allot of sense. Trying to make my own monsters I ran into allot of balancing problems too, and I can certainly see how you can't exactly fit 5 pages of descriptions for each monster in the book.
So the Minotaur was toned down because of it's other attacks. Well, couldn't you instead have kept it at the standard 1d8 than used the Secondary weapon calculations to adjust it?
The reason I am asking is I am creating a new monster based in part on the Minotaur and Half-Fiend Minotaur, and mixing in fire traits such as from fire elemental and fire giant, and I want to assume it is holding no weapon, and pre-calculate what will happen if it is holding one. I also want to pre-calculate differences in size, and things like that. I want to keep as close to what rules there are, because in another monster when I made up all kinds of stuff I found it was allot harder to balance out than if I based it on existing monsters as a kind of Chimera of sorts.
http://www.etherealspheres.com/RedBullFiend.pdf
But I guess there isn't really any rules at all for it. Still, couldn't you simplify things by making new rules? For example, if something is bipedal vs. something on all 4s. There are probably a number of ways to bring a bit more order into it.
And was that the reason that a Minotaur is times .05 STR, while the Half-Fiend has times 1.0 STR, because the additional attacks didn't justify a mere 2 CR increase? And if that STR is weaker because they are Secondary attacks what would it be if it wasn't? I know you have averages for the dice now, and it makes sense to think about the dice damage in the same way as 10/11 is average stats, but is there an average for STR damage?
But I guess there isn't really any rules at all for it. Still, couldn't you simplify things by making new rules? For example, if something is bipedal vs. something on all 4s. There are probably a number of ways to bring a bit more order into it.
And was that the reason that a Minotaur is times .05 STR, while the Half-Fiend has times 1.0 STR, because the additional attacks didn't justify a mere 2 CR increase? And if that STR is weaker because they are Secondary attacks what would it be if it wasn't? I know you have averages for the dice now, and it makes sense to think about the dice damage in the same way as 10/11 is average stats, but is there an average for STR damage?