Can't see if this has been answered before, but I know that there are wise people out there....
Is it possible to make a critical hit with, say a grapple maneuver? If you go by the rules, apparently you can't since nowhere is crits mentioned when it comes to CM, but some maneuvers are attackish (is that even a word?) fx Grapple. (is that the only one, really?)
Hope Y'all can help me!
Gworeth
Well, if the CM does damage, like say, Sunder, I would allow the crit rules to apply.
Can't see if this has been answered before, but I know that there are wise people out there....
Is it possible to make a critical hit with, say a grapple maneuver? If you go by the rules, apparently you can't since nowhere is crits mentioned when it comes to CM, but some maneuvers are attackish (is that even a word?) fx Grapple. (is that the only one, really?)
Hope Y'all can help me!
Gworeth
If it is a maneuver that damages a creature it will score a natural 20 (19 if you have inproved critical(grapple)) if you confirm the hit.
Well, if the CM does damage, like say, Sunder, I would allow the crit rules to apply.
You cannot score critical hits on inanimate objects.
Okay... Good calls..
But let's go into details.. If you were using armor spikes, will the improved critical feat be needed on the spikes or how do these two thing corelate? And if the Armor spikes are Keen, Flaming Burst and so on? Makes me head spin a wee bit :-)
(I'm working on a character concept a'la Pwent from R.A. Salvatore's novels, the battlerager-guy, and I'd like to have the details right, see? ;-) )
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Is it possible to make a critical hit with, say a grapple maneuver?
If you are making an attack roll, you can critical. All other rolls (like grappling, disarming, overrun, bull rush, trip, even sunder) are not attack rolls. Sunder deals damage, but objects can't be subject to criticals.
If you were using armor spikes, will the improved critical feat be needed on the spikes or how do these two thing corelate? And if the Armor spikes are Keen, Flaming Burst and so on?
If you have Improved Critical Armour Spikes, then the spikes are now 19-20. When you roll a 19 (and hit) or roll a 20 (hit or miss) you threaten a critical. If you reroll and hit, you crit.
Keen doesn't work with Improved Critical, so they are still 19-20 with Improved Critical Armour Spikes that are +1 Keen Armour Spikes.
Well, if the CM does damage, like say, Sunder, I would allow the crit rules to apply.You cannot score critical hits on inanimate objects.
Good catch, my bad :)
Is it possible to make a critical hit with, say a grapple maneuver?If you are making an attack roll, you can critical. All other rolls (like grappling, disarming, overrun, bull rush, trip, even sunder) are not attack rolls. Sunder deals damage, but objects can't be subject to criticals.
Yes they are.
PRPG p.199 states that "When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver. make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus."
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Yes they are.
PRPG p.199 states that "When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver. make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus."
You force me to be extremely precise? Fine.
They are attack rolls, but they are not attack rolls.
They do not target AC, therefore you can not make a critical hit because critical hits are:
"Critical Hits: ... attack rolls ... regardless of your target's AC"
3.p p184
So, again, Combat Maneuvers are not attack rolls, they are CM checks.
They do not benefit from Critical Hits, since a Critical Hit doesn't make any sense anyway.
Yes they are.
PRPG p.199 states that "When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver. make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus."
You force me to be extremely precise? Fine.
They are attack rolls, but they are not attack rolls.
They do not target AC, therefore you can not make a critical hit because critical hits are:
"Critical Hits: ... attack rolls ... regardless of your target's AC"
3.p p184So, again, Combat Maneuvers are not attack rolls, they are CM checks.
They do not benefit from Critical Hits, since a Critical Hit doesn't make any sense anyway.
This is beginning to smell like we need an official ruling here, since both rules can't be right at the same time, so to speak.
And it will be pretty darned difficult to adjucate at the table...
So please! What say ye at the Paizo-House?
Yes they are.
PRPG p.199 states that "When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver. make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus."
You force me to be extremely precise? Fine.
They are attack rolls, but they are not attack rolls.
They do not target AC, therefore you can not make a critical hit because critical hits are:
"Critical Hits: ... attack rolls ... regardless of your target's AC"
3.p p184So, again, Combat Maneuvers are not attack rolls, they are CM checks.
They do not benefit from Critical Hits, since a Critical Hit doesn't make any sense anyway.
This is beginning to smell like we need an official ruling here, since both rules can't be right at the same time, so to speak.
And it will be pretty darned difficult to adjucate at the table...
So please! What say ye at the Paizo-House?
There is no confusion with the rules, since there is no rule saying its not an attack roll.
Now to build on that
From the PRD
Attack Roll
An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round. When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals or beats the target's Armor Class, you hit and deal damage.
Automatic Misses and Hits: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit (see the attack action).
For normal attacks Nat 20's result in extra damage, but for combat maneuvers all they do is make the combat maneuver an automatic success, or hit in the case of sunder.
For normal attacks Nat 20's result in extra damage, but for combat maneuvers all they do is make the combat maneuver an automatic success, or hit in the case of sunder.I can't tell you how strongly I disagree with this statement both in a RAW and in a RAI perspective.
They use attack rolls, and any nat 20 is a "hit". It may not be RAI*, but it is RAW.
Some CMB's are effectively actually attacks, but even the one that are not still use attack rolls so they qualify for the nat 20=success rule.
I do think its RAI for the ones that take the place of attacks such as sunder, and trip, but not for bull rush. I just can't see a gnome pushing a giant out of the way or bowling him over.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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They use attack rolls, and any nat 20 is a "hit". It may not be RAI*, but it is RAW.
True (they use attack rolls), but your conclusion is false.
Critical Hits require an attack roll and damage. Without damage (something CM rolls do not have) you can not critical. If you can't critical, you don't auto succeed on a 20 by RAW.
If you can't critical, you don't auto succeed on a 20 by RAW.
Please explain this logic, because the text under the "Attack Roll" entry under "Combat Statistics" states "A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit." Nowhere does it state a requirement that you must be able to crit to automatically hit.
Furthermore, check "Determine Success" under the "Combat Maneuvers" on page 199. The third sentence explicitly states, "Rolling a natural 20 while attempting a combat maneuver is always a success (except when attempting to escape from bonds), while rolling a natural 1 is always a failure." This contradicts your statement that you must be able to achieve some sort of critical to be able to automatically succeed.
With the RAW, a natural 20 on a combat maneuver check (except in the case of attempting to escape bonds) is an automatic success.
I do not understand how you could have come to your conclusion.
Furthermore, check "Determine Success" under the "Combat Maneuvers" on page 199. The third sentence explicitly states, "Rolling a natural 20 while attempting a combat maneuver is always a success (except when attempting to escape from bonds), while rolling a natural 1 is always a failure."
With this indisputiable evidence, all we're left with is basically the original question. We've established that a 20 is an auto-success, and that the other CM that deals damage (sunder) is a moot point since objects are immune to crits. So let's state the question very specifically:
When using the Grapple Combat Manuver to deal damage, can you score a critical hit? Further, if using a light weapon or armor spikes, does the threat range (and/or crit multiplier) of those weapons apply? I think the answer is yes:
Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a “threat,” meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt to “confirm” the critical hit—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the confirmation roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit, it doesn't need to come up 20 again.) If the confirmation roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
I think these two sections, and the bolded parts thereof, prove pretty conclusively that you can score critical hits with a Grapple maneuver.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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"Combat Maneuvers" on page 199 ... "Rolling a natural 20 while attempting a combat maneuver is always a success ..."With this indisputable evidence, all we're left with is basically the original question.
When using the Grapple Combat Manuver to deal damage, can you score a critical hit?
That evidence certainly closes the debated on whether or not a 20/1 are auto success/fail. There is no remaining doubt.
Leaving RAI for others to ponder and the fact that A critical with Trip/Disarm/etc doesn't make any logical sense, that should mean by RAW you can score a critical with a Grapple for damage.
I think these two sections, and the bolded parts thereof, prove pretty conclusively that you can score critical hits with a Grapple maneuver.
How do you handle the threat? Roll a second time and see if you succeed in the CMW roll? Even rolling again to meet the threat (hit the CMD a second time) goes against the direct strict RAW (since RAW mentions AC not CMD.) So while I agree you should be able to critical on a Grapple for damage, the rules don't tell you how to handle the threat.
Leaving RAI for others to ponder and the fact that A critical with Trip/Disarm/etc doesn't make any logical sense, that should mean by RAW you can score a critical with a Grapple for damage.
No one's saying that a natural 20 on a Bull Rush, Disarm, Overrun or Trip is a critical hit, not even the rules. It's just an automatic success. Congrats, you must have hit him just at the right time (off-balance or whatever). Note that for all of the above except Disarm there are size restrictions that prevent silliness like pixies Bull-Rushing giants on a natural 20. I wouldn't actually mind seeing a size restriction in place for Disarm as well, as I have a hard time picturing a Tiny dagger knocking a Huge greatclub out of someone's hand. Though I suppose it could be handwaved as a stab to the fleshy part of the thumb or some other lucky pressure point.
How do you handle the threat? Roll a second time and see if you succeed in the CMW roll? Even rolling again to meet the threat (hit the CMD a second time) goes against the direct strict RAW (since RAW mentions AC not CMD.) So while I agree you should be able to critical on a Grapple for damage, the rules don't tell you how to handle the threat.
Well, you could do it two ways:
A) Roll CMB vs CMD again, since that's how the mechanic works on a normal crit (repeat the roll with the same conditions to confirm). This makes the most sense to me.
B) Follow the RAW to the letter and make another CMB roll (since it's an attack roll still) but this time vs AC. It's a little odd, but it is in fact what the rules explicitly state. It could be explained with "Ok, you got him good with that grapple and have found a possible weak spot in the armor, roll to see if you can get through it."
Note that the defender takes a -2 to either defense from the -4 penalty to Dexterity for being grappled. There's no language in the condition that lets them keep it vs. their grappler.
If anyone is still in doubt that Combat Maneuvers are actual attack rolls one just has to think of their origin.
In 3.5 they where attack rolls opposed AC or the opponents attack roll. in those situations a 20 is an automatic hit. Since PRPG calls CM checks attack rolls as well and does not explicitly state that they are different with regard to natural 20s and crits I cannot see where the argument against it lies.
Crits are of course only relevants for attack rolls dealing damage be they weapon attacks, ranged touch spells or grapple checks (when used for damage).
Furthermore, check "Determine Success" under the "Combat Maneuvers" on page 199. The third sentence explicitly states, "Rolling a natural 20 while attempting a combat maneuver is always a success (except when attempting to escape from bonds), while rolling a natural 1 is always a failure." This contradicts your statement that you must be able to achieve some sort of critical to be able to automatically succeed.
I knew I had seen that before, but when making my case I could not find it. I better mark that page. Thanks.
I thank yee fer aiding me in clearing up these, apparently not so trifle, matters.
I knew I had seen that before, but when making my case I could not find it. I better mark that page. Thanks.
You're welcome.