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I'm playing an archer type character in my current game. How would the folks on the boards feel about a feat that allows characters to attack with a bow in melee without provoking attacks of oppurtunity? There is a first level ranger spell called Arrow Mind that allows you to do this. I was thinking of creating a feat that would allow it. Any opinions or ideas? I think it would be really cool, I just am not sure how to tell if it would be too powerful or not. It doesn't seem that it would on the surface, but there could be things not so evident that would have an effect on it. I appreciate any advice or insight anyone may offer.
I'm playing an archer type character in my current game. How would the folks on the boards feel about a feat that allows characters to attack with a bow in melee without provoking attacks of oppurtunity? There is a first level ranger spell called Arrow Mind that allows you to do this. I was thinking of creating a feat that would allow it. Any opinions or ideas? I think it would be really cool, I just am not sure how to tell if it would be too powerful or not. It doesn't seem that it would on the surface, but there could be things not so evident that would have an effect on it. I appreciate any advice or insight anyone may offer.
I seem to recall an ability in a Prestege class that had that effect. Maybe the Order of the Bow initiate? Also, while I am not a huge fan of the 3rd party material, I think one of the Mongoose press books had some feats along those lines. Prooly in The Quint. Ranger book.
I'm playing an archer type character in my current game. How would the folks on the boards feel about a feat that allows characters to attack with a bow in melee without provoking attacks of oppurtunity? There is a first level ranger spell called Arrow Mind that allows you to do this. I was thinking of creating a feat that would allow it. Any opinions or ideas? I think it would be really cool, I just am not sure how to tell if it would be too powerful or not. It doesn't seem that it would on the surface, but there could be things not so evident that would have an effect on it. I appreciate any advice or insight anyone may offer.
"Catch Off-Guard (Combat)
Foes are surprised by your skilled use of unorthodox and improvised weapons.Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised melee weapon. Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.
Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon."
"Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet."
Club or quarterstaff make sense for comparable weapons here, so it would in my book be a 1d6 improvised weapon for a bow used in melee.
<chuckles>
Kolo, I don't think the OP was asking if he could use his bow as a club! I think the question was more about shooting arrows at an adjacent foe without provoking the normal AoO.
Of course, I could be completely wrong...
Anyhoo, I have an archer type in my current campaign, and I made up a feat that does exactly that. He's been using that feat for several levels now, and I have mixed feelings about it. I intended it to resemble the wizard's "ability" to cast spells in combat (via Combat Casting), but I didn't include any "down-side" (such as making a Concentration check [v.3.5). In retrospect I probably should have, and the feat would have been nicely balanced.
Consider those things if you proceed with this idea.
<chuckles>
Kolo, I don't think the OP was asking if he could use his bow as a club! I think the question was more about shooting arrows at an adjacent foe without provoking the normal AoO.
Of course, I could be completely wrong...
Anyhoo, I have an archer type in my current campaign, and I made up a feat that does exactly that. He's been using that feat for several levels now, and I have mixed feelings about it. I intended it to resemble the wizard's "ability" to cast spells in combat (via Combat Casting), but I didn't include any "down-side" (such as making a Concentration check [v.3.5). In retrospect I probably should have, and the feat would have been nicely balanced.
Consider those things if you proceed with this idea.
After having looked at it again i think you are right.
A feat along the lines you are saying i would recomend make it require an acrobatics check vs their cmd (like what tumble became) in order to avoid the oop
A feat along the lines you are saying i would recomend make it require an acrobatics check vs their cmd (like what tumble became) in order to avoid the oopAcrobatics may be a better suggestion than CMB. It's simpler and is just like an existing mechanic.
Thats what i said, make an acrobatics check vs the threatening enemy's CMD
If you are talking about firing an arrow in melee range then I would probably not allow anything like that at my table.
I come from a family who Bowhunts and have taught Archery for a few summers. The real life mechanics of grabbing the arrow, nocking it, aiming and firing would be incredibly hard while being attacked up close. I'm sure people will disagree with me, but it is what it is. The physical action still applies.
As for the fantasy implications, even Legolas didn't fire directly at adjacent melee combatants unless he could pull off a shot as they were moving into what could be considered melee range. He actually used the bow itself or an arrow as an improvised weapon. Or simply switched to his long knives.
Having seen high level fighters and rangers specialized in archery in action I honestly don't know that they need this. Both classes can be devastating at long range and a feat like this takes away their one shortcoming. As an epic level ability, maybe, but untill they hit epic levels I wouldn't consider it.
As for the fantasy implications, even Legolas didn't fire directly at adjacent melee combatants unless he could pull off a shot as they were moving into what could be considered melee range. He actually used the bow itself or an arrow as an improvised weapon. Or simply switched to his long knives.
Depends on what you consider melee range. In actual space between fighter melee range can almost be 10 feet. I dont know about you but I am not 5ft wide or deep. The 'stepping into melee range' action is part of every attack a dnd character makes. We simplify this in dnd with 'squares' but it means that what is represented on the table isnt exactly what there is in real life. I can easly see someone like legolas pulling off a bow shot with 5-8 feet between him and his target.
I've remade the Order of the Bow Initiate PrC mostly because I hated the name. However the question came up in my game about a feat the allows you to fire in melee in not provoke an AoO.
I took the ability from the PrC and just made it a feat.
Close Combat Shot (Combat)
Prerequisites: Dodge, Point-Blank Shot
You are skilled at firing a ranged weapon while in melee in melee combat.
Benefit: You no longer provoke an attack of opportunity when firing a ranged weapon while in a threatened square.
Normal: When firing a ranged weapon in a threatened square you provoke an attack of opportunity from your enemies.
Special: If you use this feat with a crossbow and do not possess the Rapid Reload feat you provoke an attack of opportunity while reloading if you are in a threatened square.
Prerequisites:
Dodge - The PC has taken time to study anticipating where enemies will land their blows in a combat situation. Whether they are struck or not in combat, they've learned to fire their shot at a moment that posses the greatest opportunity to them. It's not always successful, but moving in cramped quarters has taught them to make the most of the space they have.
Point-Blank Shot - The character learned to aim and fire quickly, making the most of short distance shots. Close combat is no different, by learning to use kicks an pushes to throw their opponents off guard they've learned to make the room they need to nock and fire an arrow.
For a time I thought using Weapon Focus, and in the short time it was play tested it didn't seem to make sense. Most (if not all, I believe) are usable without needing any specific focus with any one bow or crossbow so I dropped it from the prereqs.
Hope that helps, if anything it might give you a place to start.
Not to fire up a Legolas debate, but there is one instance in the movies where the little elf pops off three arrows on three baddies, one of them was about 10 feet away, the other two were less than 10 easily.
The little knife-ear was brutal with a bow, we all know that, and to be honest I'd certainly say he used his bow while in a threatened square at least a couple of times. But you have to remember, like all elves, he cheated... he had the same eight arrows in his quiver and relied on the Gods to CGI new ones as he drew the bow string back and let go.
You can't trust elves... I'm tellin' ya.
I like the "Acrobatics vs. CMD" mechanic...makes it like tumbling through someone's space, or even a bit like Combat Casting for the spellcaster.
As an aside (but closely related note), I've thought of another idea the bow-wielding fighter could use...or maybe I borrowed it from a different book:
If a bowman has an arrow nocked (or even if he doesn't), how about a feat that allows him to "threaten" adjacent squares with that bow and fire it as an attack of opportunity. I haven't through completely through this one, but it seems like it would be a cool thing to be able to do.
Close Combat Shot (Combat)
Prerequisites: Dodge, Point-Blank Shot
You are skilled at firing a ranged weapon while in melee in melee combat.
Benefit: You no longer provoke an attack of opportunity when firing a ranged weapon while in a threatened square.
Normal: When firing a ranged weapon in a threatened square you provoke an attack of opportunity from your enemies.
Special: If you use this feat with a crossbow and do not possess the Rapid Reload feat you provoke an attack of opportunity while reloading if you are in a threatened square.
/QUOTE]I have something fairly close to this, but for the prereqs, I also include the Defensive Archery feat(Races of the Wild) and a BAB of +3.
Oh, and I didn't have the crossbow part.
For those unfamiliar with it, Defensive Archery gives a character a +4 dodge bonus to AC against AoO provoked by firing a ranged weapon. It has PBS as a prereq.
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Thanks for all the input folks. I'm going to discuss some of these options with my DM and the other players to see what they think. Another question, if the close combat shot feat posted earlier was allowed in the game, would it be reasonable to add it to the ranger's archery set of bouns combat feats? I think it would make sense, but then again I am the one who would benefit the most from the decision, so I am admittedly a bit biased. Thanks once again for discussion and more is always welcome. Once again the boards have come through for me.
Cake. Eating it too.
Cake. Eating it too.
Ideed.
If an archer wants a feat to do well in melee I suggest 2, quick draw, and power attack. Treantmonk posted a great ranger build which was decent at both archery and melee.
Cake. Eating it too.Do I get an "Infinite Reach" feat, too? Or at least "Finite But Really Big, Like Several Hundred Feet Reach"?
For all those of you who want their cake and eat it, too: The cake is a lie!
Indeed,I was a ranged melee feat so I can use my greatsword at 100' like the longbow.