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Hello everyone, this is my first post in the Paizo messageboards although I have been a long time observer:)
You all seem like a great community and my players have informed me of an issue they had with the game and I'm really not sure what to do.
So I came here, to the great community of Paizo to aid me!
My problem: I'm up to the last stretch of Endless night (and thoroughly enjoying it, and my players have said they are too!) but after one session my players informed me that they didn't think the supplied motivation agreed with there characters.
I certainly wouldn't call them mercenary type pc's, but they do like to do stuff that helps them, there favorite adventure so far has been Children of the void where they enjoyed that they had the clear goal and self benefiting aspect of gathering the Noqoul and the two side goals involving there close friends: Kwava, who had asked them to tell him if they found any drow activity on the island. and Samaritha who they enjoyed saving and getting her and the other cypher mages to safety.
A few other aspects they enjoyed were: The blot in Shadow in the sky, they really enjoyed studying it and finding out what it was, and later they also enjoyed figuring out the Armageddon echo.
A few things about the individual pc's and what motivations they have liked,
The fighter: The groups toughy but also an alchemist and scholar with a drug addled past, she liked studying the blot like the others but has really hated her time in the underdark, (the player has enjoyed it but she's roleplaying) to Summarize she likes knowledge, books, killing things, but she is also kind and probably is the only Pc who would really help the elves out of the kindness of there hearts.
The Wizard: The groups crazy spellcasters, she loved studying the blot, and the echo, and finding the noqual, and enchanting everyone's gear, and making scrolls and wands, she was a bit disapointed with the lack of downtime in the later adventures, cause she wants to create stuff (so I'm going to make sure to include a larger rest period in Kyonin)
To summarize with her she likes the whole knowledge aspect and is essentially after learning how to destroy the world in the most ways possible.
The Warlock: she grew up with the wizard (although there not related)
and they are very close, the warlock generally follows around the wizard and is the mature practical one who keeps the wizard's schemes from becoming too crazy.
And finally the Assassin: She hails from the royal courts of Cheliax and is really flirtatious, she generally goes her own way around the city (or wherever they are) and makes her way back to the party after accomplishing whatever it is she wanted to do, she enjoys meeting especially hot npc's and sneaking around in the area she thinks I don't want her to go most.
So that was quite a complicated thing to write (and hence probably hard to read too, which I apologize for) and I also realize I didn't mention the motivation which the pc's didn't agree with, Ie the one your basically following the whole adventure: Save the elves.
The pc's have grown very close to Kwava Shalelu and Kaerishiel, but still they think theyed enjoy it a lot more with a solid motivation that works with there characters, I know this is a rather hard question which is really why I brought it to these boards to see what you have all done to motivate your pc's!
I really really appreciate any help you great people can give me!
Thanks again!
-Feral
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Hi Charles, thanks for the reply:)
We actually did a session earlier today and It ended with them entering the deep gate to Kyonin.
My players told me that they were actually going along with the adventure and rolling with the current motivation just to keep the adventure going cause they were really enjoying it but this is one big problem they had with it, so as all ways I try my best to fix the problem, and make the game the most enjoyable for all of us.
My real worry is that the elves aren't actually being really nice and grateful to the Pc's, I think they'll kind of finally snap when the get attacked by the elves in A Memory of darkness.
And when they have the interview with the queen I think they'll get really annoyed at that adviser guy (forgot his name)
Generally they are actually really annoyed at the fact that why aren't the elves doing this all themselves? why didn't Kyonin teleport in several high level elves to smash the drow in Celwnyvian? why didn't they send more high level elves into Zirnakynin? and eventually why aren't the elves going to send in yet more powerful elves into the land of black blood?
They will help the elves but they really need something to encourage themselves to do so. . .
I hope I clarified it some more and I really appreciate the help:)
-Feral
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My real worry is that the elves aren't actually being really nice and grateful to the Pc's, I think they'll kind of finally snap when the get attacked by the elves in A Memory of darkness.
My PC's did not take this well either. Although this encounter did allow them to realize that the Winter Council exists and seems to be their main political adversary and not the Elven government as a whole.
And when they have the interview with the queen I think they'll get really annoyed at that adviser guy (forgot his name)
My group took to calling him Wurmtongue. Ha ha.
Generally they are actually really annoyed at the fact that why aren't the elves doing this all themselves? why didn't Kyonin teleport in several high level elves to smash the drow in Celwnyvian? why didn't they send more high level elves into Zirnakynin? and eventually why aren't the elves going to send in yet more powerful elves into the land of black blood?
In the end most groups will have plenty to hate in general about elves. I think one thing this AP did well is to reveal that Drow exists but as things unfolds it tends to get the point across that all elves dark or surface have the shared base nature. It may be filtered and changed through different alignments but they share a common societal root.
In the end, if it wasn't for the fact that the future of the entire world was in the balance, I don't think my PC's would have played ball at all.
In the end, if it wasn't for the fact that the future of the entire world was in the balance, I don't think my PC's would have played ball at all.
When we get to this point in the AP, I was going to introduce an advisor to the queen who will help persuade the PCs to assist. I'm going to have him present the situation to mirror politics in our world a bit . . . One group is warning of pending terrorist attacks, global warming, etc. In general this group is telling the truth but it is an uncomfortable and frightening truth to most elves. Another group is radically opposing this view point and espousing that the elven nation is safe from any harm. The population in general is doing nothing.
The queens advisor lays out this situation and why he (the queen) is seeking non-elven help.
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Wow... I actually really really like those ideas!!!
Thanks so much!
I think my Pc's will go along with the elves plan and go after Allevrah quite happily in Descent into Midnight even with Treerazer sitting there!
As for the Cheliax plan I think they'd really like the motivation but to tie it into the story even better I might use Quilindra to be the an agent from Cheliax!
in any case these ideas really helped me thank you very much everyone! :-)
My group actually just finished Memory of Darkness. They also felt the "why won't the elves help/do this" and "these Elves are mean!" vibes. In the end though, I think that's actually what makes this module special.
I tried to do two things to prevent problems: first, I made darn sure to give the party the Sense Motive check to notice the Queen paying sudden close attention during the initial meeting. Second, I emphasized the arrival of the story book (without adding any extra explanations though). That gave the party enough to go off of to follow the thread, and know that the Elves themselves weren't the bad guys.
Then, between the kidnapping attempt (important point there also), the imprisonment, and being ignored, they were hot for *some* kind of payback. Turning them to the Winter Council wasn't difficult.
You're right though - the motivation is hard. That makes it a real challenge, for the players and the characters. Do they do this thing despite the lack of support they get or not?
In the end, the real reward is not only the discovery made, but that the Winter Council itself is the *cause* of their lack of motivation. It kept the fight in Celwynvian as quiet as possible. It keeps the Elves from knowing about and going after the Drow. It was directly responsible (through Lord Villastir) for their poor reception before the queen. And in the end, it's responsible for the coming Second Darkness as well.
I had heard many people saying this was a weak adventure, tough to motivate, etc., from reading it (and some playing it I think). I was a bit worried going in. In the end though, it was a fantastic adventure. Kudos to the author, and the AP/editing in total for allowing such a tough idea to make it through. [It might have helped a bit that I got four 'ringers' in as a surprise to play the parts of the Winter Council.]
Additional motivations specific to your characters (great write-up of their personalities by the way!):
Fighter - legendary Alchemy equipment in Thorn's End (maybe could hear about this, perhaps a casual mention from Quillindra, or use by the kidnapping squad).
Wizard - Incredible levels of knowledge, available.
Warlock - not sure here.
Assassin - while it might not turn out that way, Assassination is pretty much the whole plan of the adventure - and there are a *lot* of places to sneak around in Thorn's End. It's even written from that perspective to a degree.
Good luck, and ENJOY!
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Thanks Majuba!
I certainly didn't mean I didn't enjoy the adventure, its been epic! a great introduction for me and my players in the pathfinder world!
Hopefully I can act the adventure out in a way that everything is the winter councils fault like you've said here, and then my Pc's can have some good fun revenge!
The individual motivations work okay with A memory of darkness cause the Pc's will certainly gain much going to thorns end, and they will enjoy getting rid of a bit of excess anger on the winter council:p
I'm not to worried about the warlock she follows behind the wizard quite happily.
Thank you very much and I'll certainly make sure to inform you all how it turned out:) the next session should be tonight!
I just got through running the whole adventure path for my group. The lack of motivation was one problem I foresaw with the path, and so, to prevent this particular problem I asked the players to create a very specific party of characters. More on this in my recent blog-post here. Now, I realize this won't help your particular problem very much, but maybe someone else will find it more useful. I think proper motivating of characters is something the modules don't do very well, and should be handled on a case by case basis by the gaming group, as the module can not take every individual eventuality into account.
I am not familiar with the adventure myself, but the idea of motivation is a tricky problem at it's best and game-breaking at its worst. My group tends to be very invested in personality, alignment and character motivation. They also tend to role-play social interaction over any type of skill roll. We have done a few modules my friend who prefers wizards called "Kingdom of the A-Holes" where the group began to question whether they really wanted to help the NPC's.
I have a couple tricks I've used in the past kept us on track. My friend who tends to play rogues is a sucker for a "Damsel in Distress". Works almost everytime. Pretty face asks for help, BAM! Deal is sealed. He doesn't even realize it sometimes, but we all kid him about it.
My wife (who mostly plays fighters and paladins) is not as easy. My trick with her is to find an NPC she can respect. Usually a father figure, but the best way I found was to have an aged adventurer or a war Veteran who is unable to fight yet is desperate to defend his people.
My wife also DM's and I am a sucker for simple folk like farmers and peasants who want to fight, but are afraid to leave their families without any males or members to work their farms or business. It comes from my small town upbringing I suppose.
I create a new NPC to help give them the reason to continue on or alter an existing NPC's personality to fit this niche. You've done the right thing so far, knowing your players and finding ways to tailor your game to fit their character concepts. Hope this helps, and Game On!
This adventure path is a little flawed. It starts out a certain way, makes the city seem extremely important as a setting, makes the players become attached to the place, then forces them to leave. Why would they leave? Who knows. I know my players had problems with that. They loved this path until they hit the whole war in an elven city part; then they felt that the story lost cohesion and the struggle for motivations began. Sadly, due my moving, we never made it past that adventure.