| SilvercatMoonpaw |
This is just a crazy idea I had recently, but what would happen if I took out all spellcasting as class features and instead allowed only casting via magic items though everyone could do it?
Problems that I can see:
* Need to change ranger and paladin to be spell-less.
* Either have to dump spellcasting classes because they're now super-weak or rebuild them for non-casting.
* Would have to give Use Magic Device to all classes, but that would mean anyone who didn't put ranks in it might fall behind the power curve. Or maybe not, if gp expenditure balances things out.
There are probably others, which is why I'm asking here, hoping someone can tell me what I'm missing.
The setting this is intended for is one where magic works a bit like physics in that you can't just speak words and the universe listens you have to either have a device or a limited innate ability.
| Kolokotroni |
There are spell-free ranger and paladin variance out there somewhere in 3.5, i am sure of it.
Quick and Dirty, give the Ranger and Paladin bonus combat feats at level 4 and every 3 levels thereafter.
You might want to consider something like the artificer in place of standard magic class, because without the ability to cast spells, obviously the wizard, sorceor, druid, bard, and cleric all are not going to work. The artificer on the other hand works by making things to create the effects, which fits your theme nicely i think.
I wouldnt give UMD to all classes, leave it as it is. After all you can still put ranks into UMD you are just 3 points behind if its not a class skill.
You would at that point need to seriously consider the danger level this adds. Particularly the cleric spell list is there to help deal with things like ability point damage, poisons, diseases, and other non-hitpoint things.
Also without the cleric and no one able to cast healing spells your players will not be able to deal with alot of encounters per day. They will likely need significant rest periods between fights. Yes you can get wands potions and scrolls but this is much less effective then a cleric channeling or even a caster casting their own cure spells (remember items are at the lowest posible caster level).
| Twin Agate Dragons |
From my homebrew
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REGARDING CANTRIPS & ORISONS
I dislike that Pathfinder allows the use of cantrips and orisons without end. So instead of that, every class that is able to use either gains a pool of spell energy (see A Note About Metamagic in Chapter 5). Multiclass characters combine their spell energy pools into one. In order to utilize a cantrip or orison, the character must cast it as normal but also must expend one point of spell energy. Without the expenditure of spell energy, the cantrip/orison is unsuccessfully cast.
ROGUES
Rogues no longer gain Sneak Attack as a class feature; instead they gain bonus combat feats in its place. Sneak attack has been reworked as a combat feat. The rogue talent Minor Magic is eliminated, and Major Magic is renamed Arcane Talent and requires the Rogue to have the Arcane Adept feat. Master Strike is renamed Critical Strike now applies when confirming a critical hit.
A NOTE ABOUT METAMAGIC
I’m not a fan of metamagic in the current form that it works so instead of increasing the level used to power the metamagic spell, spellcasters instead gain a pool of spell energy from which they use to fuel metamagic enhancements to spells.
The amount of spell energy a spellcaster has is equal to their caster level times two + the ability modifier from the ability score that grants bonus spells. In addition, for each metamagic feat selected, the spellcaster gains one additional point of spell energy.
In order to add the metamagic enhancement to a spell, the spellcaster must expend an amount of spell energy equal to the spell level increase. For example, when applying the maximize spell metamagic feat enhancement, the spellcaster must expend three points of spell energy. Spellcasters may apply any amount of metamagic enhancements to their spells, but must pay the full cost for each enhancement.
ARCANE ADEPT
You have a grasp on the tenets of arcane magic and can utilize it at the most basic level.
Prerequisite: Int or Cha 10
Benefit: You gain the Detect Magic cantrip plus three more cantrips of your choice from the sorcerer/wizard list and you gain a pool of spell energy equal to your character level +3.
For every hit die you have, you gain one additional point of spell energy. Whenever you gain another hit die (such as when you gain a class level) you gain an additional point of spell energy. In order to cast a cantrip the character must expend one point of spell energy.
The character’s effective caster level is first. For every additional point of spell energy expended in the casting of a cantrip, the character’s effective caster level is increased by +1. Your caster level for a cantrip can not exceed your character level.
Special: Rogues may select Arcane Adept as one of their rogue talents and the caster level for their cantrips is equal to their rogue level (they never need to expend additional spell energy to increase their effective caster level).
| SilvercatMoonpaw |
You would at that point need to seriously consider the danger level this adds. Particularly the cleric spell list is there to help deal with things like ability point damage, poisons, diseases, and other non-hitpoint things.
Also without the cleric and no one able to cast healing spells your players will not be able to deal with alot of encounters per day. They will likely need significant rest periods between fights.
I don't think I really mind fewer encounters per day, 4 per has always seemed a bit excessive to me. I'd worry about healing as I do enjoy the gung-ho approach, but I could probably live with the alternative. I'd probably implement the Reserve Points of Vitality/Wounds systems from the SRD.
The one question remaining is how this is likely to affect monster difficulty. I know for low- or no-magic monsters become significantly tougher, but since this idea doesn't seem as low as those I'm not sure if the situation is similar.
| Lathiira |
Ranger and Paladin spell-free variants exist in Complete Champion and Complete Warrior. One gives bonus feats, the other a few spell-like abilities and whatnot.
How exactly will you give everyone magical abilities? Through use of magic items only? Well, who makes the items? Master crafters, I assume. It's something to think about. Also, if PCs have no spells, then life gets a lot tougher when dealing with the following:
DR (though a good craftsman might make magic weapons, you'll need to find them)
Flying creatures (hope everyone has a bow)
Creatures with any form of status ailment: disease, poison, petrification, fear aura, whatever
Namely, any creature gets tougher without magic around to even things up. Even big bruisers represent a problem, because you're going to need healing after they hit you a few times.
Another note: caster levels on magic items are not always set for the same levels as the characters using the items in normal games. Wands, scrolls, and potions often are made at the minimum possible caster level. Wondrous items as well.
These things can be worked around, but there will be problems to consider. Think carefully.
| SilvercatMoonpaw |
How exactly will you give everyone magical abilities? Through use of magic items only? Well, who makes the items? Master crafters, I assume.
I was just thinking of allowing anyone to take and use the magic item creation feats with a skill rank prerequisite instead of caster level. I don't know what I'd do about no having spells for creation prerequisites.
Creatures with any form of status ailment: disease, poison, petrification, fear aura, whatever
Namely, any creature gets tougher without magic around to even things up. Even big bruisers represent a problem, because you're going to need healing after they hit you a few times.
From the stories I was kind of hoping magic items made healing easy.
| Lathiira |
From the stories I was kind of hoping magic items made healing easy.
Potions can take care of disease, poison, ability damage, and a few other problems. But not all of them. Take a good look through the back of ye old Core Rulebook at the long list of evil things you can do to PCs. How do you compensate for dazing? Stunning? Sickening? Nausea? There are ways to do this, but it will take some thought on behalf of the GM and the players alike.
Also, think about what will happen as you move into mid to high levels. Magic item power levels when it comes to duplicating spells are not often nearly at the same level as what the PCs would be at (staves in the hands of spellcasters are an obvious exception).
Krillnar
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Have you checked out the incantation rules from Unearthed Arcana (or the SRD)? They allow anyone to cast "spells," provided they succeed on several difficult Knowledge (arcana) skill checks--and these checks each take 10 minutes to perform. All incantations are equivalent to 6th or higher level spells.
I've toyed with the idea of eliminating spells per day and converting all spells into incantations, with the number of successful checks required equal to the spell level (0-level spells requiring 1 check and taking 5 minutes instead of 10 minutes). Spellcasters would be capable of modifying the incantations, such as by piling on penalties (i.e. adding components) to bring the DC down to a reasonable level, and the highly skilled could waive these penalties (but not reduce the casting time). The various domain, bloodline, and school powers (and maybe cantrips) would go a long way towards replacing combat magic, especially if the 3+ per day powers became usable at will (or at least more often). Another option would be to let only spellcasters be capable of casting incantations with spell level less than 6th.
| Weylin |
Have you checked out the incantation rules from Unearthed Arcana (or the SRD)? They allow anyone to cast "spells," provided they succeed on several difficult Knowledge (arcana) skill checks--and these checks each take 10 minutes to perform. All incantations are equivalent to 6th or higher level spells.
I've toyed with the idea of eliminating spells per day and converting all spells into incantations, with the number of successful checks required equal to the spell level (0-level spells requiring 1 check and taking 5 minutes instead of 10 minutes). Spellcasters would be capable of modifying the incantations, such as by piling on penalties (i.e. adding components) to bring the DC down to a reasonable level, and the highly skilled could waive these penalties (but not reduce the casting time). The various domain, bloodline, and school powers (and maybe cantrips) would go a long way towards replacing combat magic, especially if the 3+ per day powers became usable at will (or at least more often). Another option would be to let only spellcasters be capable of casting incantations with spell level less than 6th.
Krill, you might want to check out the options Green Ronin used for The Black Company Setting and True Sorcery (fro True20). Both turned casting into skill checks with class features and feats that added to the checks.
-Weylin
| Kolokotroni |
Kolokotroni wrote:You would at that point need to seriously consider the danger level this adds. Particularly the cleric spell list is there to help deal with things like ability point damage, poisons, diseases, and other non-hitpoint things.
Also without the cleric and no one able to cast healing spells your players will not be able to deal with alot of encounters per day. They will likely need significant rest periods between fights.
I don't think I really mind fewer encounters per day, 4 per has always seemed a bit excessive to me. I'd worry about healing as I do enjoy the gung-ho approach, but I could probably live with the alternative. I'd probably implement the Reserve Points of Vitality/Wounds systems from the SRD.
The one question remaining is how this is likely to affect monster difficulty. I know for low- or no-magic monsters become significantly tougher, but since this idea doesn't seem as low as those I'm not sure if the situation is similar.
It will be similar since wands and other magic items dont compare to the effectiveness and versatility of primary casters, mostly the wizard or cleric. Where once the horde of goblins could be funneled into the raging barbarian with a well placed grease, or the mighty dragon could be brought down a peg with a good debuff, now you have significantly less of that. In addition, in very hard fights against things like demons and dragons some buffs can really help. Even if you have a wand of resist energy or a scroll of protection from fire, it will not be as good against that great wyrm red dragon as it would have been if cast by an appropriate level cleric or wizard.
There is also cost to take into account, the party couldnt sustain using limited use items for all their healing, buffing, utility needs and get the appropriate gear for their characters (magic swords, armor and whatever else they might need). So it will certainly bring party power down, and you should account for that in your encounters. Especially with enemies that do non-conventional things. Without magic, if the dragon takes to the air, the whole party is essentially boned. No wizard to bring him back to earth, or cast fly on the party fighter. So you will need to consider these things in your monster tactics as well.
Marc Radle
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Ranger and Paladin spell-free variants exist in Complete Champion and Complete Warrior. One gives bonus feats, the other a few spell-like abilities and whatnot.
I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't bring up the fact that there is a Spell-less Ranger variant Pathfinder class in the current issue of Kobold Quarterly.
Good luck with what sounds like an interesting campaign!
snobi
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The setting this is intended for is one where magic works a bit like physics in that you can't just speak words and the universe listens you have to either have a device or a limited innate ability.
Hopefully those who took Vow of Poverty would have the limited innate ability.
Gui_Shih
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This is just a crazy idea I had recently, but what would happen if I took out all spellcasting as class features and instead allowed only casting via magic items though everyone could do it?
Problems that I can see:
* Need to change ranger and paladin to be spell-less.
* Either have to dump spellcasting classes because they're now super-weak or rebuild them for non-casting.
* Would have to give Use Magic Device to all classes, but that would mean anyone who didn't put ranks in it might fall behind the power curve. Or maybe not, if gp expenditure balances things out.There are probably others, which is why I'm asking here, hoping someone can tell me what I'm missing.
The setting this is intended for is one where magic works a bit like physics in that you can't just speak words and the universe listens you have to either have a device or a limited innate ability.
You may want to check out The Imperial Age: Magick by Adamant Entertainment. It presents a few different ways to work in a feat and/or skill based magic system that uses the existing d20 spells. Its skewed towards Modern, but could easily be ported to PRPG/3.x
If you took away the existing spellcasting progressions and replaced them with bonus feats and extra skill points, then balanced them out with the Magic Rating rules from Unearthed Arcana, you'd probably have a fairly stout system that would require little in the way of conversion.