Kaidan Samurai - new design directions


Conversions


After lots of referencing of everything from Complete Adventurer, Complete Warrior, the Pathfinder Core and even the new Cavalier Beta, as well as various private iterations of the samurai - I decided to go a different way.

I wanted my samurai to not be overly arcane in design, being basically a martial class, though I did add some ki pool powers, as per Pathfinder Monk. Because I wanted the samurai to have some weapon options, I finally decided to use the Pathfinder Ranger as a template for creating my samurai.

Samurai

Alignment: any lawful
Hit Dice: d10
Skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Handle Animals, Intimidate, Knowledge: Nobility, Perception, Perform: Calligraphy, Perform: Koan/Haiku poetry, Perform: Tea Ceremony, Sense Motive, Ride and Swim.
Skill points per level: 4 x Int modifier.

Class Features:

1st: Quick Draw and Mounted Combat bonus feats

2nd: Combat Style Feat - samurai must select between Daikyu Archery and Katana combat. Daikyu feats as per ranger archery combat style feats. Katana combat: Combat Expertise, Dazzling Display, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, and Ride by Attack; 6th: Shattered Defenses, Vital Strike; 10th: Deadly Stroke and Improved Vital Strike

2nd: Weapon Focus Feat - must choose between the weapons of combat style

3rd: Ancestral Weapon Feat - provides +1 Attack/Damage by activating the ancestral spirit bound to weapon, must be either of the combat style choices, can be taken repeated and stacked, but in this progression: 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th and 18th (18th level adds power: keen, instead of combat modifiers)

3rd: Iaijutsu Strike - 1d6 precision damage, must win initiative versus a flat-footed target to hit, can be stacked up to five times in the following progression: 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th and 19th level.

4th: Skill Focus - Intimidate

5th: Ki pool; Ki Strike (as per Monk ability)

8th: Intimidating Prowess feat

13th: Ki Focus - Intimidate (add up to 5 ki points as additional stacked modifier to Charisma, Strength and Skill focus to Intimidate skill.

16th: Ki Focus - Intimidate Reduction (up to 5 ki points spent to remove DC check modifiers to intimidate attempts against the samurai)

20th: Ki Focus - Jade Mind; immunity to Intimidation attempts, plus Spell Resistance: samurai level + 10

Samurai begins with family line issued ancestral weapon, and noble lord issued war horse, daisho twin swords or daikyu, Ashigaru light armor and 5d6 x 10 gp.

If a samurai becomes unlawful, breaks oath to noble lord, or abandons Code of Bushido (duty, honor, loyalty, and obedience), the samurai cannot gain new levels, loses non-feat samurai abilities and is relegated to commoner caste as Bushi Fighter.

Thoughts?

GP


Here is what I eventually came up with:
Samurai from Oriental Adventures: Updated to PFRPG

From my observations you're going to find two separate approaches to this class here on the boards.

One school of thought will be that the Samurai should be 1 class. It should either be a half fighter/with knight-like abilities. Some will even go so far as to say you don't need a Samurai class, just play a fighter with the right feats/attitude.

The other school of thought (which is the one I lean towards) is that the samurai needs to be its own separate class. The problem as you've seen for yourself is that its difficult for one class to absorb the different roles/variations of the samurai effectively. My decision with going with the Oriental Adventures Samurai was for this very reason. The clan's provide alternate approaches to each samurai, allowing you to pick a first level what direction you want to take them in. The other part of my decision is that I can be a little lazy and if something works well, I'm not going to tinker with it. In this case I needed an Asian flavored setting, and this just works right out of the book.

Your Samurai works as a "Generic" samurai. I'd rethink the capstone, as spell resistance really doesn't fit them as a class. I'd probably lean towards something that allows them to kill with one hit with their iaijutsu attack.

Those are my thoughts.
-AK


Yeah, I agree on the capstone ability, in that Spell Resistance is a weak way to go, though going Iaijustsu isn't a solution, for me, either. This indeed is an attempt at a generic samurai. What's not mentioned, is I intend to create at least 3 different Samurai derived prestige classes. One of those classes will be Iaijutsu Master, so any further developmental skills in Iaijutsu Strike will fall under that prestige class, and shouldn't be overshadowed by a samurai capstone, that exceeds that.

Some kind of one shot kill capability is certainly warranted, I just need to define what that really is.

Thanks for the comments, though.

And yeah, I know samurai career options at least in fantasy is so diversified, its difficult to create one class that pleases all, but I think the basics of my generic samurai work better, than any iteration, I've seen so far. I didn't care for the CA samurai, and the Complete Warrior samurai is just a poor design.

I also didn't go Rokugani OA samurai, because Kaidan features 15 different samurai clans (whereas Rokugan just has a half dozen or so) and I didn't want to try to develope 15 different samurai styles.

Also Kaidan features a commoner caste Bushi warrior, who is a straight Pathfinder Fighter in Japanese garb. I didn't want my samurai to go Fighter as it would conflict with my Bushi class. Good thoughts anyway.

GP


4 Winds Fantasy Gaming's Paths of Power features a Samurai class as well, and is available for pre-order now. It will be released on November 27th.


Only thing I would really change would be the alignment restriction.

First, I have issues with alignment restrictions in general with occasional exception for the Cleric or Paladin.

Second, I think it is completely possible to be a samurai and not be lawful or to even be chaotic. Your status/face may suffer but not your abilities in my view. Many historic examples of samurai were not Lawful by RAW. And even more examples are not Lawful from cinema...such as several from Seven Samurai or Sanjuro/Yojombo.

-Weylin


Weylin wrote:

Only thing I would really change would be the alignment restriction.

First, I have issues with alignment restrictions in general with occasional exception for the Cleric or Paladin.

Second, I think it is completely possible to be a samurai and not be lawful or to even be chaotic. Your status/face may suffer but not your abilities in my view. Many historic examples of samurai were not Lawful by RAW. And even more examples are not Lawful from cinema...such as several from Seven Samurai or Sanjuro/Yojombo.

-Weylin

That could be possible, I think Mongoose's Conan game focuses on Honor instead of alignment and Kaidan, as a feudal Japan-like setting, Honor could be more true as personal relationship between the self and one's master be it noble lord, yakuza chief, sohei abbot, as per class requirement.

I could drop alignment entirely, but then an emphasis on the Oath to a Lord, and following the Code of Bushido. In the latter one could still be honorable, dutiful, loyal, and obedient yet still be ruthless, treacherous even chaotic - as an end that justifies the means.

Hows this for the capstone, (adjusted) Jade Mind: immunities to Intimidation and Mind-Affecting Spells. Whenever a critical is confirmed with the primary weapon, the samurai may choose from the following 3 options: double critical level multiplier (if already double, triple), blinding critical or exhausting critical (samurai does not require prerequesites for those feats.)

Kaidan is my commercial asian horror rpg setting, with the first adventure already published and available in the Paizo store. Since the part 2 of the mini-campaign focuses on a duel to first blood between the party's fighter and the local noble lord's samurai champion - I'm going to need the class placed in its entirety in the next adventure.

The Gift - Part 2: Dim Spirit should be coming out in a couple weeks.

GP


gamer-printer wrote:
The Gift - Part 2: Dim Spirit should be coming out in a couple weeks. GP

Ah, so no pressure on you then. ;)

Seriously, though, GP, I enjoyed reading the Gift, and my daughter is very excited about my running it for her and some others in the (hopefully near) future, so I look fwd to Dim Spirit.


gamer-printer wrote:

That could be possible, I think Mongoose's Conan game focuses on Honor instead of alignment and Kaidan, as a feudal Japan-like setting, Honor could be more true as personal relationship between the self and one's master be it noble lord, yakuza chief, sohei abbot, as per class requirement.

I could drop alignment entirely, but then an emphasis on the Oath to a Lord, and following the Code of Bushido. In the latter one could still be honorable, dutiful, loyal, and obedient yet still be ruthless, treacherous even chaotic - as an end that justifies the means.

Hows this for the capstone, (adjusted) Jade Mind: immunities to Intimidation and Mind-Affecting Spells. Whenever a critical is confirmed with the primary weapon, the samurai may choose from the following 3 options: double critical level multiplier (if already double, triple), blinding critical or exhausting critical (samurai does not require prerequesites for those feats.)

Kaidan is my commercial asian horror rpg setting, with the first adventure already published and available in the Paizo store. Since the part 2 of the mini-campaign focuses on a duel to first blood between the party's fighter and the local noble lord's samurai champion - I'm going to need the class placed in its entirety in the next adventure.

The Gift - Part 2: Dim Spirit should be coming out in a couple weeks.

GP

You could substitute Glory, Honor and Status similar to L5R in place of the usual alignment system.

I like the capstone ability. I would possibly scatter the various critical feats through the class.

For a more historic feel, I would possibly change Daikyu Archery to Kyujutsu and Katana Combat to Kenjutsu for class ability names.

On this subject, you could also go the route of "Feat Tree as School/Style" and create several. I personally liked this in OA but did not like the naming conventions being drawn from Rokugan (as much as I love that setting). But the core idea was sound and requires minimal work.

You could have a school of Kujutsu that focused on Accuracy (Point Blank Shot and Deadly Aim) while another focused on Speed (Rapid Shot and . A Kenjutsu school that focused on Power (Power Attack and Cleave), another on Speed (Improved Initiative and Combat Reflexes), another on Defense(Combat Expertise and Dodge), another on Precision (Weapon Finesse and melee version of Deadly Aim).

In the vein of japanese horror, are you incorporating anything about Amatsu-Mikaboshi? or Soku-no-Kumi? Both would serve very well in a setting based on feudal Japan. Amatsu-Mikaboshi could serve as a corrupting being with Soku-no-Kumi as his home plane.

Currently playing with Amatsu-Mikaboshi and Soku-no-Kumi in a modern horror/hunters game I am playing in using Cinematic Unisystem. Both are integral to my current character and his sister.

-Weylin


So, I was experimenting adding more Combat Styles under this samurai, rather than true feat trees, I tried to keep it loose as under the Ranger Combat Styles, making a number of related feats at appropriate levels that the samurai can choose from. Although in most cases I tried to setup appropriate prerequisite feats at lower levels, in some cases that's not true, so as Ranger, samurai still does not require "prerequisites" to take available feats.

Also I placed the combat capstone for samurai within each combat style, thus the capstone varies with each style. All receive Jade Mind immunities, however.

I am not sure, if this is too many styles, or if any of the styles presented are imbalanced (just a bit too powerful) I tried to keep them in reason.

Aijutsu - armored unarmed techniques used especially when a samurai has dropped a weapon or has been disarmed, also good as combined sword and martial arts techniques. I left flurry of blows as a Monk style only.

1st level: Combat Expertise, Dodge, Improved Bull Rush and Power Attack.
6th level: Improved Overrun, Mobility.
10th level: Greater Bull Rush, Spring Attack.
14th level: Greater Overrun, Whirlwind Attack.
18th level: Stunning Fist
20th level: Confirmed Crticals with Bull Rush attacks are combined with the Stunning Fist effect (normal saves apply.)

Kenjutsu (Sword Techniques) include three styles, pick one:

Daisho (2 weapon):
1st level: Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows (use offhand weapon), Double Slice, and Two Weapon Fighting.
6th level: Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense.
10th level: Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Two weapon Rend.
14th level: Critical Focus, Staggering Critical
18th level: Deafening Critical, Stunning Critical
20th level: Confirmed criticals gain Critical Mastery

Ken-te (1 sword):
1st level: Combat Expertise, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Mobility.
6th level: Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack
10th level: Critical Focus, Bleeding Critical
14th level: Blinding Critical, Critical Mastery
18th level: Exhausting Critical
20th level: Confirmed Criticals gain Greater Critical Mastery (3 critical effects simultaneously.

Ni-te (two hand style):
1st level: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Dazzling Display, Power Attack.
6th level: Shattered Defenses, Vital Strike
10th level: Deadly Stroke, Improved Vital Strike
14th level: Ki Balance (spend up to 5 points of ki to remove offhand penalties to attack.)
18th level: Greater Vital Strike
20th level: Confirmed Criticals gain Greater Vital Strike damage, plus normal critical modifiers.

Kyujutsu techniques:
1st level: Deadly Aim, Far Shot, Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot
6th level: Improved Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
10th level: Pinpoint Targeting, Greater Precision Shot
18th level: Ki Range (spend up to 5 ki points to remove range penalties)

Still have to decide on a few more archery benefits.

Planning on creating a Cavalry Tehnique as well.

GP


Slight changes to the Archery style...

Kyujutsu techniques:
1st level: Deadly Aim, Far Shot, Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot
6th level: Improved Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
10th level: Greater Precision Shot, Many Shot
14th level: Pinpoint Targeting,
18th level: Ki Range (spend up to 5 ki points to remove range penalties)
20th level: Rain of Arrows (spend up to 5 ki points to remove penalties for Many Shot) x Dex Bonus/day.

Cavalry techniques: (will look for a better, more Japanese name)
1st level: Improved Bull Rush, Mounted Archery, Precise Shot, Ride by Attack
6th level: Improved Precise Shot, Spirited Charge
10th level: Shot on the Run, Trample
14th level: Unseat, Vital Strike
18th level: Improved Vital Strike
20th level: On a successful charge, samurai gets a full attack.


The samurai in Seven Samurai and Yojimbo, as well as other movies such as Lone Wolf and Cub, were all 'ronin', disenfranchised warriors. Since they were obligated to no one beyond their personal code, they could be chaotic. However, the function of the bushi class was primarily to maintain order and enforce the will of the daimyo. Samurai in the service of a lord were most certainly restricted in their actions and acting in a disreputable or shameful manner could well result in being ordered to commit seppuku. Japanese history is filled with cases of notable figures obeying lethal orders because it was what was expected of them.

As I wrote the class up in Paths of Power, Samurai in the service of a lord can only be Lawful, with the majority being Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil - ie keeping order by cutting troublemakers' heads off. Ronin aren't restricted in class, but they have other penalties for being societal outsiders.


game-printer, I really like the expansion of the schools quite a bit. A japanese influenced game, many of the PC warrior types are likely to be Samurai(bushi) than Fighters (ashigaru nco and officers...most ashigaru being simply Warriors). I think have several schools of combat will help give some diferentiation between Samurai and stop them from being clones of each other.

I like the three styles you have so far for the class. I would suggest one that used a more defensive style to represent some of the more conservative kuryu. also consider a style based more on mu-shin (using wisdom instead of Strength or Desxterity) and possibly as later school abilities modifiers against fear and enchantment (harder to effect a mind in such a state).

Also possibly some that used weapons other than the diasho...while they carried the katana and wakizashi, some schools favored weapons such as the yari or naginata (historically appropriate for onna-bugeisha).

For archery, I would include an option somwehere in the base kyujustu school or a secondary school for "Zen archery" (using Wisdom instead of Dexterity).

I see a lot of solid potential in a japanese inspired setting, especially if it is japan-based but not literal historic japan itself.

-Weylin


Lyingbastard wrote:

The samurai in Seven Samurai and Yojimbo, as well as other movies such as Lone Wolf and Cub, were all 'ronin', disenfranchised warriors. Since they were obligated to no one beyond their personal code, they could be chaotic. However, the function of the bushi class was primarily to maintain order and enforce the will of the daimyo. Samurai in the service of a lord were most certainly restricted in their actions and acting in a disreputable or shameful manner could well result in being ordered to commit seppuku. Japanese history is filled with cases of notable figures obeying lethal orders because it was what was expected of them.

As I wrote the class up in Paths of Power, Samurai in the service of a lord can only be Lawful, with the majority being Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil - ie keeping order by cutting troublemakers' heads off. Ronin aren't restricted in class, but they have other penalties for being societal outsiders.

I would saw Neutral Good/True Neutral/Neutral Evil could also serve under a daimyo. If you take cultural views into consideration, many of the samurai would also be Lawful Good. If you take cultural view based entirely on modern, most samurai would be Lawful Evil...deciding someone was sub-human and and thus could be killed without penalty is not something most would call Good or even Neutral.

-Weylin


So I talked our groups DM to test the Samurai out as an NPC opponnet. Our group is really high level, several Epic level characters in the group, especially the party tank, who is an 18th level fighter/cleric with the Deva template who deals out mega-damage in combat. Although we were fighting in a heavy arcane fog that made combat more difficult, it was still a party of five near epic players against one epic samurai.

The samurai was defeated in the end, but not before he did an exhausting critical strike on the party tank and party sorcerer. He also managed to do critical blind to the second fighter, before we beat him down. In the end, the samurai escaped (no doubt he'll be a reoccurring villain over the next few adventures.)

Once the fog separated the party, the samurai was doing full attacks against our party tank who held him off well, until the Exhausting Critical hit him, but by then two more party members managed to reach the fighting pair. After which the samurai was doing spring attacks to avoid attacks with multiple party members at the same time and managed to get another Exhausting Critical on the sorcerer. The fog had dispelling properties so made spells more difficult to cast, but my war mage/elemental savant got an empowered/maximized fire ball (acid ball)that was a major hit on the samurai. Still we didn't get to kill him.

I'd like to playtest a much lower level samurai as well, but at high levels he did very well, against an overly powerful group.

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