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Just a thought...
Now the requisite for dragon disciple "Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation." could be fulfilled by the Wizard's Arcane Bond if a bonded object is chosen?
"A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared."
I would say no, the bonded item is not the same as casting without prep
I would say no, the bonded item is not the same as casting without prep
It's a VERY liberal interpretation, but maybe you could get away with it if your GM is cool.
Once per day does not meet "Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation." As ya can do it once per day so ya can cast a spell, not spells
But if your GM allows it roll with it
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I'm not thinking of creating such a character for me (most probably it will happen the other way). Anyway, I see no real reason not to allow it.
After all, it's the wizard who is casting the spell, not the object. And it's without any doubt without preparation.
As for the 'once in a day', I see no real trouble... wouldn't you allow a 4th level bard qualify for the same requirement (say bard 4/fighter 1 for the other prereqs)? Or a wizard 3/cleric 3 for mystic theurge? One could argue he can choose to cast different spells (hence the plural).
I see no real reason not to allow it by RAW. Besides most descriptions in the Dragon Disciple abilities talk about what happens if the character is a sorcerer or not.
I would allow a bard, I would not a wizard as his item is casting the spell not him. He can not cast the spell if he does not have the item.
Should a fighter with an item that allows him to cast one spell a day be ok to?
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I would allow a bard, I would not a wizard as his item is casting the spell not him. He can not cast the spell if he does not have the item.
I don't agree at all. It's stated very clearly that it's the wizard who casts the spell. See the rules:
A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard's level.
Similarilly, if a prc required 'Ability to prepare 1st level spells' you wouldn't allow a wizard because he can't prepare spells if he doesn't have a spellbook?
Should a fighter with an item that allows him to cast one spell a day be ok to?
Pointless. A fighter would be activating a magic item, not casting a spell. Besides, the arcane bond is a class skill, not magic equipment.
Anyway, if such an item existed that made the user able to cast spells (which doesn't exist, afaik) I still wouldn't allow someone to qualify for a prc due to something that does not come from his levels in one or another class but due to magic items.
Nope it says
A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard's level.
The item is doing the casting, as he can not do it without the item. Just like if he was using a ring of spell storing or such. Your "casting" it but really you do not have the ablity on your on
Like I said if your GM allows it cool, but your twisting the wording and the wizard does not have the ablity the item grants it like a ring of spellstoreing
I would allow a bard, I would not a wizard as his item is casting the spell not him. He can not cast the spell if he does not have the item.
I don't agree at all. It's stated very clearly that it's the wizard who casts the spell. See the rules:
even if the spell is not prepared. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard's level.
Isn't that what staves do?
Using Staves: Staves use the wielder's ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it's higher than the caster level of the staff.
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Nope it says
A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard's level.
The item is doing the casting, as he can not do it without the item. Just like if he was using a ring of spell storing or such. Your "casting" it but really you do not have the ablity on your on
Well that 'the item is doing the casting' is your interpretation. The wizard applies it's ability modifiers, it's caster level, needs to provide components, is subject to spell failure... To me it looks like it's him doing the casting in any way. The bonded object is just an implement given to him as a class feature, similar to the sacred symbol a cleric needs. See this in the cleric section:
"Channel Energy (Su): Regardless of alignment, any cleric can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol."
Would you say it's the holy symbol that's doing the channeling? :-P
Now. What's the difference?
Like I said if your GM allows it cool, but your twisting the wording and the wizard does not have the ablity the item grants it like a ring of spellstoreing
That's totally wrong. A ring of spellstoring uses the modifiers and caster level of the original caster. The one activating it is not subject to spell failure. It's completely different.
Besides, the most important difference, in my opinion is that a wizard has that feature for being a wizard, not for buying something at the magic-o-mart.
Nope it says
A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard's level.
The item is doing the casting, as he can not do it without the item. Just like if he was using a ring of spell storing or such. Your "casting" it but really you do not have the ablity on your on
Well that 'the item is doing the casting' is your interpretation. The wizard applies it's ability modifiers, it's caster level, needs to provide components, is subject to spell failure... To me it looks like it's him doing the casting in any way. The bonded object is just an implement given to him as a class feature, similar to the sacred symbol a cleric needs. See this in the cleric section:
"Channel Energy (Su): Regardless of alignment, any cleric can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol."
Would you say it's the holy symbol that's doing the channeling? :-P
Now. What's the difference?
Like I said if your GM allows it cool, but your twisting the wording and the wizard does not have the ablity the item grants it like a ring of spellstoreingThat's totally wrong. A ring of spellstoring uses the modifiers and caster level of the original caster. The one activating it is not subject to spell failure. It's completely different.
Besides, the most important difference, in my opinion is that a wizard has that feature for being a wizard, not for buying something at the magic-o-mart.
Just because he did not pay for it that does not mean the item is not responsible for the affect.
And if you want to try to get around the intent of the rules.
RequirementsTo qualify to become a dragon disciple, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Race: Any nondragon.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks.
Languages: Draconic.
Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation.
The item only allows for one spell not multiple spells. So whether you go by the letter of the law or the spirit of the law it can't be done
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Just because he did not pay for it that does not mean the item is not responsible for the affect.
So again, a cleric can't take a prc that needs chanelling as a prereq, as he needs it's holy symbol. Same could probably go for sneak attack (which needs a weapon), perform (when it needs an instrument), druids needing mistletoe...
It's not that he did not pay for it. It's that it is a class feature
And if you want to try to get around the intent of the rules....
RequirementsTo qualify to become a
Why is it more 'against the intent' that a wizard qualifies if a bard does as well.
Anyway, a wizard will most probably have more than one 1st level spell in his spellbook so he will be able to cast 1st level spells. Saying it needs to cast many spells each day (in fact he'll need only 8 hours) is ridiculous.
As I wrote before. Would you deny a wizard 3 / cleric 3 becoming mystic theurge because they only cast one 2nd level spell each day? :-P
Would you deny a 4th level bard /1st level anything become a dragon disciple because he has only one 1st level spell a day? Come on... :-P
I wan't something by the rules that really disallows it. Not just a 'because a wizard couldn't before, he can't do it now'.
it's the fact his item gives him the ablity he does not have it himself. He can't cast spells like a sorcerer he has a 1/day ablity to cast from his item. A bard casts by himself, your wizard can not without his item...meaning if ya loose it for even a round you loose all DD powers and ablitys as ya know it grants em after all
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it's the fact his item gives him the ablity he does not have it himself. A bard casts by himself, your wizard can not without his item...meaning if ya loose it for even a round you loose all DD powers and ablitys as ya know it grants em after all
I do not agree. The wizard has the ability, as it is his class feature, but needs the item as a conduit or an implement. The item does not have the ability, and it cant grant it to anyone else.
How is this different from a cleric's channeling?
Would you rule the same against a cleric prc that loses his holy symbol?
Would you deny a wizard a prc benefits if he loses his component pouch? :-P
I think you see this as 'unnatural' because it wasn't possible in 3.5. But if you look at it only with PFRPG rules in mind, there is no reason to say he doesn't qualify.
No he can not. He does not have the ablity to cast spells without perpareing. He can 1/day cast a spell he has not prepared but is in his book or recast one he has cast by drawing the power From the item.
He lacks the ablity to cast spells without preparing them.
Just because he did not pay for it that does not mean the item is not responsible for the affect.
So again, a cleric can't take a prc that needs chanelling as a prereq, as he needs it's holy symbol. Same could probably go for sneak attack (which needs a weapon), perform (when it needs an instrument), druids needing mistletoe...
It's not that he did not pay for it. It's that it is a class feature
And if you want to try to get around the intent of the rules....
RequirementsTo qualify to become a
Why is it more 'against the intent' that a wizard qualifies if a bard does as well.
Anyway, a wizard will most probably have more than one 1st level spell in his spellbook so he will be able to cast 1st level spells. Saying it needs to cast many spells each day (in fact he'll need only 8 hours) is ridiculous.
As I wrote before. Would you deny a wizard 3 / cleric 3 becoming mystic theurge because they only cast one 2nd level spell each day? :-P
Would you deny a 4th level bard /1st level anything become a dragon disciple because he has only one 1st level spell a day? Come on... :-P
I wan't something by the rules that really disallows it. Not just a 'because a wizard couldn't before, he can't do it now'.
You show me a cleric or wizard than can only cast 1 3rd level spell that was intended to play in a game and I will say yes because if they are limiting themselves to one spell then they have no reason to go mystic theurge.
A bard's cha that intended to cast anything would put him over the limit for the one 2nd level spell per day.
The DD was always meant for spontaneous casters. The wizard does not have the ability to cast arcane spells without preparation. If that was the case then why even put the entry in there, just so wizards with familiars can't take the class? They might as well have just made 1st level spells the requirement.
If you like we can go to the rules board with it to get an official answer.
it's the fact his item gives him the ablity he does not have it himself. A bard casts by himself, your wizard can not without his item...meaning if ya loose it for even a round you loose all DD powers and ablitys as ya know it grants em after allWould you deny a wizard a prc benefits if he loses his component pouch? :-P
The pouch holds the components for individual spells, but not all spells have material components so the bag is not a requirement to cast spells.
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The DD was always meant for spontaneous casters. The wizard does not have the ability to cast arcane spells without preparation. If that was the case then why even put the entry in there, just so wizards with familiars can't take the class? They might as well have just made 1st level spells the requirement.
If you like we can go to the rules board with it to get an official answer.
I don't disagree about that the prc was meant for spontaneus casters (though I'd say it was meant for characters with a little bit of innate arcane power), but what I mean is that the arcane bonded item class feature has the 'side effect' of making a wizard a (limited) spontaneous caster. Anyway it may ban other arcane casting classes that will appear on the future (as it would ban warlocks, should you use them, for example).
Is this not the rules board? Is there somehow we could have an official answer? I'd love to.
The pouch holds the components for individual spells, but not all spells have material components so the bag is not a requirement to cast spells.
Would you deny a wizard a prc benefits if he loses his component pouch? :-P
So a cleric without his holy symbol (who can't channel energy, as the symbol is always a requirement to use that class feature) would be in the same situation as the wizard, for a prc that needed channeling? Or a wizard without a spellbook for a prc that needed preparing spells?
No he is still not a spontaneous caster, he has a 1/day ablity but he is not a spontaneous caster.
The DD was always meant for spontaneous casters. The wizard does not have the ability to cast arcane spells without preparation. If that was the case then why even put the entry in there, just so wizards with familiars can't take the class? They might as well have just made 1st level spells the requirement.
If you like we can go to the rules board with it to get an official answer.
I don't disagree about that the prc was meant for spontaneus casters (though I'd say it was meant for characters with a little bit of innate arcane power), but what I mean is that the arcane bonded item class feature has the 'side effect' of making a wizard a (limited) spontaneous caster. Anyway it may ban other arcane casting classes that will appear on the future (as it would ban warlocks, should you use them, for example).
Is this not the rules board? Is there somehow we could have an official answer? I'd love to.
The pouch holds the components for individual spells, but not all spells have material components so the bag is not a requirement to cast spells.
Would you deny a wizard a prc benefits if he loses his component pouch? :-PSo a cleric without his holy symbol (who can't channel energy, as the symbol is always a requirement to use that class feature) would be in the same situation as the wizard, for a prc that needed channeling? Or a wizard without a spellbook for a prc that needed preparing spells?
lol ,it is the rules board. sorry about that.
A spellbook and a holy symbol are not the force by which their abilities work. They assist with the abilities. That arcane bond is a class ability that works just like the a staff once per day. It is IMHO nothing more than a limited use magic item. It is more complicated than that, but I dont know how to explain it.
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If we're going to be nitpicky, let's look at the PrC requirements a little more closely.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.
If you can't tell, I put an emphasis on a single word in the previous paragraph. It's not the word that's important, it's the fact that it's pluralized. Since the PrC clearly states you have to be capable of casting multiple first-level spells, a Wizard with a bonded item is ineligible.
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No he is still not a spontaneous caster, he has a 1/day ablity but he is not a spontaneous caster.
Totally agree with that one. If the requisite was to be a spontaneous caster I'd say no to the. But the requisite is much smaller, it's to be able to cast a 1st level spell without preparation, which, incidentally is what any wizard with an arcane bond item can do (it's even described with those same words 'cast a spell [...] even if not prepared').
lol ,it is the rules board. sorry about that.A spellbook and a holy symbol are not the force by which their abilities work. They assist with the abilities. That arcane bond is a class ability that works just like the a staff once per day. It is IMHO nothing more than a limited use magic item. It is more complicated than that, but I dont know how to explain it.
Nevermind, maybe someone will pop in with an official answer. :-)
Anyway, I don't think you catch my point... many (most) classes have abilities that need some implement to function. But in none of them is the implement considered to be the 'source' of the ability. Because that item is so closely bonded to the class that every member of that class need it to function properly.
The wizard with a bonded item is even more. If he doesn't have the bonded item in hand or equipped he won't be able to cast almost any spell (he needs a concentration check DC 20 + spell level, that's quite a hard roll!).
Most of you (at least most of the ones that are replying) are considering that bonded item a 'bonus' as if it's not part of being a wizard but, indeed, it's more necessary for him to work normally than a holy symbol for a cleric.
It's not just some fancy item to get a bonus spell, it's the item that allows the wizard to channel his magic.
No he is still not a spontaneous caster,
It's not just some fancy item to get a bonus spell, it's the item that allows the wizard to channel his magic.
It helps him channel his magic. It does not allow it because the spells can be cast without it; it is just harder. It gives you one spell, but it does not allow you to spells. Casting 1st level spells as a continuous ability is why the word is plural in the requirement section.
I do get what you mean. I just dont think it works by RAW or RAI."I don't disagree about that the prc was meant for spontaneus casters" are your own words so you know it does not work RAI, and the requirement section shows it does not work by RAW. If it does not work by either method then how are you still trying to say it should work that way?
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No he is still not a spontaneous caster,
It's not just some fancy item to get a bonus spell, it's the item that allows the wizard to channel his magic.
It helps him channel his magic. It does not allow it because the spells can be cast without it; it is just harder. It gives you one spell, but it does not allow you to spells. Casting 1st level spells as a continuous ability is why the word is plural in the requirement section.
I do get what you mean. I just dont think it works by RAW or RAI."I don't disagree about that the prc was meant for spontaneus casters" are your own words so you know it does not work RAI, and the requirement section shows it does not work by RAW. If it does not work by either method then how are you still trying to say it should work that way?
I think it does not work RAI with 3.5 wizards. I honestly don't know if PFRPG wizards were intended to be able to pick up this prc.
RAW I do think it works.
About the plural, as I have stated at least twice in previous posts. A fresh new 1st level wizard already has various 1st level spells in his spell book, if he also has an arcane bonded item, he can choose amongst them so, in my opinion, he can 'cast 1st level spells witouth preparation'. He could for example cast a magic missile or a mage armor. Just as a 4th level bard without bonus spells. And I guess you wouldn't put any objection with the bard.
The fact that 'cast 1st level spells' means to be able to cast two 1st level spells in 8 hours is something you are supposing, it's not, by any means, RAW.
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The fact that 'cast 1st level spells' means to be able to cast two 1st level spells in 8 hours is something you are supposing, it's not, by any means, RAW.
Funny how you're accusing me making suppositions when you yourself are doing the same thing about the use of a Bonded Item. At times there is a divergence in the letter of the law and the intent of the law. Argue all you want about spelling, pluralization, specific wording, specific interpretations of the rules, or otherwise and it still doesn't bypass the fact that the intent of the DD is to be used by spontaneous spellcasters which at this point in the PFRPG are strictly bards and sorcerers.
I as a DM would never allow such a combo, as would (my guess) most DMs. It's things like this that make me really frustrated with roleplaying sometimes. I always meet up with players that feel like "because the rules in some strange way allow me to do something which wasn't supposed to be allowed by the rules, I can". That just doesn't fly at my table.
No he is still not a spontaneous caster,
It's not just some fancy item to get a bonus spell, it's the item that allows the wizard to channel his magic.
It helps him channel his magic. It does not allow it because the spells can be cast without it; it is just harder. It gives you one spell, but it does not allow you to spells. Casting 1st level spells as a continuous ability is why the word is plural in the requirement section.
I do get what you mean. I just dont think it works by RAW or RAI."I don't disagree about that the prc was meant for spontaneus casters" are your own words so you know it does not work RAI, and the requirement section shows it does not work by RAW. If it does not work by either method then how are you still trying to say it should work that way?
I think it does not work RAI with 3.5 wizards. I honestly don't know if PFRPG wizards were intended to be able to pick up this prc.
RAW I do think it works.
About the plural, as I have stated at least twice in previous posts. A fresh new 1st level wizard already has various 1st level spells in his spell book, if he also has an arcane bonded item, he can choose amongst them so, in my opinion, he can 'cast 1st level spells witouth preparation'. He could for example cast a magic missile or a mage armor. Just as a 4th level bard without bonus spells. And I guess you wouldn't put any objection with the bard.
The fact that 'cast 1st level spells' means to be able to cast two 1st level spells in 8 hours is something you are supposing, it's not, by any means, RAW.
By your logic if a fighter can UMD a staff he can qualify for the class since he can cast spells through an item. I am sure that wont fly in anyone's game.
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By your logic if a fighter can UMD a staff he can qualify for the class since he can cast spells through an item. I am sure that wont fly in anyone's game.
By my logic, and I am repeating myself, if a class feature allows a non-sorcerer, non-bard to cast 1st leves spells without preparation, I think it's ok.
Of course, and I think this is obvious for anyone (see the post about the ring of spell storing) activating a magic item should never allow someone to qualify for a prc. Besides, using a staff, be it through UMD or not is not casting a spell, is activating a magic item (you can see the list of actions on page 183 of the core rulebook, notice casting and activating a magic item are different actions).
Now, for I may have not stressed it well enough, an arcane bonded item is a class feature and not a magic item (the object doesn't even have to be magical, just masterwork!) .
Now, how can a masterwork amulet be casting spells? One more reason in my point that it is the wizard casting the spell, not the item.
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My question is, assuming this is possible, does the wizard retain any of the benefits of the dragon disciple class if he loses his bonded object?
At most, he'd lose the benefits if he lost the class feature. Though that'd fall in the realm of house ruling.
I do not recall that sort of rule except for feats where you need to be meeting the prerequisites when acquiring or using the feat. Also in feats, it's feasible to meet requisites via magic items (usually with bonuses to an ability score).
I've seen no such rule for prestige class requirements, in fact, RAW says you have to meet the prerequisites only when you are about to gain the first level of the class.
Another point I've come across is that,even if you don't think a wizard meets the requisites, you could be a bard-1/wizard-4, enter the prc and apply all of its benefits to your wizard levels...
Spells per Day: At the indicated levels, a dragon disciple gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a dragon disciple, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
One more point, noticed just as I was pasting this... notice the text in bold, where it suggests you don't necessarily have to be an spontaneous spellcaster to enter the PRC. So now it seems it's not either RAI that the class is just for spontaneous spellcasters...
The more I think of it the more it appears that wizards are elegible as DD in PFRPG...
Of course, if you allow feats from WOTC's "Complete" line, a wizard could take alacritous cogitation allowing him to cast 1 spell spontaneously each day. Combine this with a wizard's item familiar and he can then spontaneously cast 2 spells per day. One would be available by leaving a slot unprepared, regardless of having a bonded item with him, and the other would be available with his bonded item.
Thereby a wizard could qualify to be a dragon disciple. I'm not sure if it would be worthwhile except for the improved melee combat abilities, but that may be sufficient for some.
The answer has to be no.
Wizards are not spontaneous casters, Sorcerers and Bards are.
If you are finding that you are twisting words and digging out wierd feats and it still looks and feels wrong then it probably is.
The PrC is open to spontaneous casters only. Not Vancian casters, Clerics, Paladins, etc. but only Sorcerers and Bards and that is clearly the RAI and IMO RAW. As a GM I would never allow it.
Just a thought...
Now the requisite for dragon disciple "Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation." could be fulfilled by the Wizard's Arcane Bond if a bonded object is chosen?
"A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared."
No offense, Midknight, but it seems you came in with your mind made up about how this should be, in which case there's no reason for a discussion.
The rules clearly intended it to be impossible for a wizard with a bonded item to qualify for DD (as wizards, even with bonded items, don't have spontaneous casting as a class ability). They could have worded it differently, but the fact remains...wizards aren't supposed to take it. Not because it would be madly overpowered, but because of flavour.
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The answer has to be no.
Wizards are not spontaneous casters, Sorcerers and Bards are.
If you are finding that you are twisting words and digging out wierd feats and it still looks and feels wrong then it probably is.
The PrC is open to spontaneous casters only. Not Vancian casters, Clerics, Paladins, etc. but only Sorcerers and Bards and that is clearly the RAI and IMO RAW. As a GM I would never allow it.
There's no need for word twisting or feat digging.
If it's the RAI, why mention that the character may not be a spontaneous spell caster in the prestige class features description (see the quote 2 posts above)?
There's no need for word twisting or feat digging.
If it's the RAI, why mention that the character may not be a spontaneous spell caster in the prestige class features description (see the quote 2 posts above)?
Emphasis mine.
A Wizard with a bonded item isn't a spontanious caster. He is a vancian caster which has an item which allows him to cast a single spell without preparation. The Wizard is still a vancian caster with or without a bonded item. The spell hasn't been placed in the item "spontaneously" but after the Wizard has sat down, read his spellbooks and put it in there.It is very clear both RAW and RAI that Wizards can not take this PrC.
It isn't stated in the rules that PC can't invent the zeppelin so my Wizard is going off now to make one.
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No offense, Midknight, but it seems you came in with your mind made up about how this should be, in which case there's no reason for a discussion.
None taken ^_^
I was just browsing the changes in the system and noticed the wizard's bonded item. It just stroke me that the feature could change the way some prestige classes are accessed and wanted to check.Of course, what I wanted to know is if there were any rule that forbid it, and found none. I don't say this is how it should be, but find no answer better that disguised 'it was not possible in 3.5's.
The rules clearly intended it to be impossible for a wizard with a bonded item to qualify for DD (as wizards, even with bonded items, don't have spontaneous casting as a class ability). They could have worded it differently, but the fact remains...wizards aren't supposed to take it. Not because it would be madly overpowered, but because of flavour.
If the rules were clear, this thread would have been much shorter.
It's obvious that the rules for some wizard features have changed, and that the rules for DD have as well (in fact the requirements are not the same as in 3.5). In fact now I see the PRC leaning to almost full spellcasting, while in 3.5 it was more useful for a fighter type with just a dip of sorcerer.I just wanted to discuss if those changes had in mind that wizards now should be able to be DD, if they shouldn't or if it was just an unintended side effect.
About the flavour... well, the truth is that I can conceive more easily a wizard DD than a bard one. In fact, the fluff in PRD talks about wizards wanting to become DDs...
As some of the most ancient, powerful, and capricious creatures in existence, dragons occasionally enter into trysts with unsuspecting mortals or sire offspring with exceptional individuals. Likewise, the great power wielded by these creatures has long intrigued wizards and alchemists who have sought various magical methods to infuse their bodies with draconic power. As a result, the blood of dragons runs through the veins of many races. For some, this heritage manifests as a sorcerous bloodline and a predilection for magic; for others, however, the power of their draconic ancestors becomes an obsession.
I think we are all a bit 3.5-minded, and refuse to think that what was not possible there is not possible in PFRPG...
There's no need for word twisting or feat digging.
If it's the RAI, why mention that the character may not be a spontaneous spell caster in the prestige class features description (see the quote 2 posts above)?Emphasis mine.
A Wizard with a bonded item isn't a spontanious caster. He is a vancian caster which has an item which allows him to cast a single spell without preparation. The Wizard is still a vancian caster with or without a bonded item. The spell hasn't been placed in the item "spontaneously" but after the Wizard has sat down, read his spellbooks and put it in there. He can't cast spells spontaneously as a class ability and therefore can't take DD.
It is very clear both RAW and RAI that Wizards can not take this PrC.
It isn't stated in the rules that PC can't invent the zeppelin so my Wizard is going off now to make one.
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A Wizard with a bonded item isn't a spontanious caster. He is a vancian caster which has an item which allows him to cast a single spell without preparation. The Wizard is still a vancian caster with or without a bonded item. The spell hasn't been placed in the item "spontaneously" but after the Wizard has sat down, read his spellbooks and put it in there. He can't cast spells spontaneously as a class ability and therefore can't take DD.
So, apart that you like the 'vancian' word a lot, I don't get your point here. The requisite for the PRC is not to be a spontaneous spellcaster (which a wizard is not) but to be able to cast 1st level spells spontaneously (which he can).
I'm not sure if you know we are talking about pathfinder RPG here, but I'm quite sure you haven't read the rules we are talking about here...
Wizard's don't place spells in their items, they cast it without preparation, just in the middle of combat if they wish, just like a sorcerer.
It is very clear both RAW and RAI that Wizards can not take this PrC.
It isn't stated in the rules that PC can't invent the zeppelin so my Wizard is going off now to make one.
I can't help but notice you have read at most 2 posts in this thread. And your last comment is so trollish it regenerates and smells real bad :-P
A Wizard with a bonded item isn't a spontanious caster. He is a vancian caster which has an item which allows him to cast a single spell without preparation. The Wizard is still a vancian caster with or without a bonded item. The spell hasn't been placed in the item "spontaneously" but after the Wizard has sat down, read his spellbooks and put it in there. He can't cast spells spontaneously as a class ability and therefore can't take DD.
So, apart that you like the 'vancian' word a lot, I don't get your point here. The requisite for the PRC is not to be a spontaneous spellcaster (which a wizard is not) but to be able to cast 1st level spells spontaneously (which he can).
I'm not sure if you know we are talking about pathfinder RPG here, but I'm quite sure you haven't read the rules we are talking about here...
Wizard's don't place spells in their items, they cast it without preparation, just in the middle of combat if they wish, just like a sorcerer.
It is very clear both RAW and RAI that Wizards can not take this PrC.
It isn't stated in the rules that PC can't invent the zeppelin so my Wizard is going off now to make one.
I can't help but notice you have read at most 2 posts in this thread. And your last comment is so trollish it regenerates and smells real bad :-P
And I can't help notice that you are the only person who thinks it should work.
If you think that taking an opposing view and pointing out why the rules, to me, clearly indicate that a Wizard isn't a spontaneous caster and therefore can't be a DD is being trollish fine.You have made your mind up about this even before an answer to your post was made and therefore this is a pointless discussion.
Ho Hum.
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Spells per Day: At the indicated levels, a dragon disciple gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a dragon disciple, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
One more point, noticed just as I was pasting this... notice the text in bold, where it suggests you don't necessarily have to be an spontaneous spellcaster to enter the PRC. So now it seems it's not either RAI that the class is just for spontaneous spellcasters...
The more I think of it the more it appears that wizards are elegible as DD in PFRPG...
Does that also mean a wizard/dragon disciple does not get the two free spells per level to which a normal wizard is entitled? RAW, it seems ONLY spontaneous casters get additional spells known.
Does that also mean a wizard/dragon disciple does not get the two free spells per level to which a normal wizard is entitled? RAW, it seems ONLY spontaneous casters get additional spells known.
"Spells known" is irrelevant to wizards. Wizards never have any spells known, even if they have a dozen spellbooks filled to the brim with spells.
As for that clause, it's the standard "Increase in caster level" boilerplate text. It's copy-and-paste and no indication that you can take DD without being a spontaneous caster.
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"Spells known" is irrelevant to wizards. Wizards never have any spells known, even if they have a dozen spellbooks filled to the brim with spells.
As for that clause, it's the standard "Increase in caster level" boilerplate text. It's copy-and-paste and no indication that you can take DD without being a spontaneous caster.
Oh, in that case, I guess those two free spells would fall under the "any other class features" that a DD does not receive. Truthfully, I was only trying to see how far the OP was willing to take the RAW/RAI argument.
I wonder if this would fly in PFS. Might give some indication of the designer's intentions for the class.
"Spells known" is irrelevant to wizards. Wizards never have any spells known, even if they have a dozen spellbooks filled to the brim with spells.
As for that clause, it's the standard "Increase in caster level" boilerplate text. It's copy-and-paste and no indication that you can take DD without being a spontaneous caster.
Oh, in that case, I guess those two free spells would fall under the "any other class features" that a DD does not receive. Truthfully, I was only trying to see how far the OP was willing to take the RAW/RAI argument.
I wonder if this would fly in PFS. Might give some indication of the designer's intentions for the class.
It would not fly, the class was not intended for non spontaneous casters.
Another issue is that the sorcerer, who the PrC seems to be made for can't even take the arcane blood line to get it, which gives it the wizard's arcane bond. If that is the case, and the arcane bond(for the sake of argument) allows a wizard to get in then the arcane and the dragon bloodline should do it.
For the wizard to go stepping on the sorcerer's toes, when the sorcerer is already restricted in how it can get into a class that was made for it, would not make sense to me.
If we're going to be nitpicky, let's look at the PrC requirements a little more closely.
Pathfinder Core Rulebook wrote:
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.If you can't tell, I put an emphasis on a single word in the previous paragraph. It's not the word that's important, it's the fact that it's pluralized. Since the PrC clearly states you have to be capable of casting multiple first-level spells, a Wizard with a bonded item is ineligible.
I've seen this argument several times in this thread. It's really a weak argument.
A Wizard with Arcane Bond can cast all kinds of Spells spontaneously, a whole spellbook of them. He can cast 7 spells a week. Where did you get the "in a single day" requirement?
There is nothing that says, nor implies, that to qualify as someone who casts spells that you need to be able to cast at least 2 spells per day. It's transparent grasping at straws.
A Wizard with a bonded item isn't a spontanious caster.
That's not a requirement of the class, only that you can cast 1st level arcane spells spontaneously. A wizard with a Bonded Item is a prepared caster who can cast spells spontaneously once per day as a special class feature.
He is a vancian caster which has an item which allows him to cast a single spell without preparation.
Actually, he can cast all kinds of spells, all without preparation, which is, by definition, spontaneous casting.
A Cleric is a character with an item that allows him to channel negative or positive energy. Does that mean that he can't qualify for a PrC that requires the ability to channel positive or negative energy because he needs a holy symbol to do it?
There is a difference between activating a wand or staff to cast the spell within it, and using a class feature to cast a spell that has an item that must be held as a requirement.
We all know that though right?
It is very clear both RAW and RAI that Wizards can not take this PrC.
I think it's clear by RAW he can, but I'm not so in tune with the designers intentions to claim to ever know RAI for certain. I would guess however that the designers likely were not intending this PrC for Wizards, but unintentionally made it possible. That's just my guess though.
It isn't stated in the rules that PC can't invent the zeppelin so my Wizard is going off now to make one.
It however IS stated in the rules that a Wizard with a bonded item can cast spells without preparation...which is by definition, spontaneous casting.
The rules aren't set up to list all the things you can't do, but in this case, they HAVE listed something the Wizard can do, whether they considered the implication for PrC qualification or not.
(as wizards, even with bonded items, don't have spontaneous casting as a class ability)
Bonded item IS a class ability, and provides the ability to cast spontaneously, so I don't know where you get that from.
The designers MAY not have intended it, but it's not something that is going to make the character too powerful or anything.
If you don't think the flavor fits, or just don't like the idea that the Wizard is using a technicality to qualify, then don't allow it in your own campaign. I would certainly call it a DM call.
I would not call it however, "very clear both RAW and RAI that Wizards can not take this PrC." not a bit.
And I can't help notice that you are the only person who thinks it should work.
Not anymore.
Actually, by the letter of the rules, it's the item that casts the spell, not the Wizard, just the same as using a wand.
So no, it doesn't work.
Actually, by the letter of the rules, it's the item that casts the spell, not the Wizard, just the same as using a wand.
So no, it doesn't work.
You are referring to this?
A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting...
Consider this statement:
"A microphone can be used to sing any song that the musician knows and have it heard by everyone in the audience."
So who is singing, the microphone or the musician?
Or
"A keyboard can be used to write any post that Treantmonk wants to write to destroy Zuria's point."
Don't blame me, blame the keyboard.
There is a difference between activating a wand or staff to cast the spell within it, and using a class feature to cast a spell that has an item that must be held as a requirement.
We all know that though right?
A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard's level.
Using Staves: Staves use the wielder's ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, e wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it's higher than the caster level of the staff.
Different wording same affect. You can't use RAW for one example and use RAI for another.
Now if it turns out that being a spontaneous caster is no longer the requirement then they may as well open the class up for everyone, but to fluff it as a PRC for the sorcerer class and then officially say a wizard can take it too kind of defeats the purpose*.
*There has been no official statement at this time. I was just making a point.
The issue is you can not cast all your 1st level spells without prep, you can cast 1...once per day. It never improves, it can't get more with a high score , the item is storing, the power for it,your not.
Hince you fail to meet the required "can cast 1st level spells without preparing them" You simply do not have the ability to do so, your item can just as a scroll can or a wand can or a staff can. It even stats it's treated like a wizard spell. So on all level it fails the requirements
Does it really matter?
IMO it's pretty obvious this isn't what was intended by the designers with arcane bond but quite honestly though why does it matter?
Further, the class is significantly less useful to a wizard than it is to a sorcerer. Sorcerers progress their bloodline powers which significantly boosts the classes usefulness to them.
You drop a caster level right off the bat and the BAB is medium so it's not like this is all kinds of powerful. So you have a prestige class which isn't extremely powerful to begin with and the wizard class benefits from the PrC even less than sorcerer does...
It doesn't really fit thematically but if he has some character concept that he feels works with it why not?
Whether this opens up a whole can of worms with non-Core stuff is a whole other issue which I don't worry about much because as far as I'm concerned non-core stuff is buyer beware anyhow.