At higher level, Abundant Step along with a grapple will seriously inconvenience your example of a flying mage (minimum 880').
I suggest you re-read dimension door ;)
I suggest you re-read dimension door ;)
I have Slow Fall, so I never bother to read anything!
(Monks lost knowledge arcana.)
AAAAAGGGGHhhhhhhhhhhhhh thud.
I suggest you re-read dimension door ;)I have Slow Fall, so I never bother to read anything!
(Monks lost knowledge arcana and religion.)
AAAAAGGGGHhhhhhhhhhhhhh thud.
Slow Fall only works next to a wall, you know ;)
At higher level, Abundant Step along with a grapple will seriously inconvenience your example of a flying mage (minimum 880').I suggest you re-read dimension door ;)
I realize that you cannot take any other actions when you use dimension door, however it is a standard action to use it (casting the spell).
Abundant Step says that it a move action to use. I have always interpreted that to mean that the monk can take a standard action after using this class ability.
Abundant Step says that it a move action to use. I have always interpreted that to mean that the monk can take a standard action after using this class ability.
Then you're using a house rule (not that there's anything wrong with that). Dimension door specifically says you cannot take any other actions after using it, and abundant step doesn't override that. It's a fair enough house rule, but it's got no place in a discussion about how a monk is supposed to handle a flying wizard.
Abundant Step says that it a move action to use. I have always interpreted that to mean that the monk can take a standard action after using this class ability.Then you're using a house rule (not that there's anything wrong with that). Dimension door specifically says you cannot take any other actions after using it, and abundant step doesn't override that. It's a fair enough house rule, but it's got no place in a discussion about how a monk is supposed to handle a flying wizard.
Actually, I wasn't viewing it as a house rule, but as an interpretation of the ability/rule. There are several differences between Dimension Door and Abundant Step, such as the monk not being able to take anyone with them and that it is a move action to use it.
What would the point be to changing it to a move action if the monk could not also take a standard action afterward?
What would the point be to changing it to a move action if the monk could not also take a standard action afterward?
So that the monk can attack and dimension door away.
There are no grounds to allow the monk to attack after using abundant step within the rules. None. Abundant step says it mimics dimension door except that it's a move action and you can't take any other creatures with you. Nowhere does it state that you can ignore the major restriction on dimension door. That means you can't.
All abilities that function as Ability X with exceptions Y and Z only possess exceptions Y and Z. If it is not listed as possessing exception Q, then it does not possess exception Q. That is not a matter of interpretation.
Could you elaborate on that comment please? I have played monks in the past who did not need "more" than everyone else, so I am not seeing where they are lacking.
"Need more" is not necessarily the same as "more dependent." Though, as always, personal experience means nothing.
At lower levels, a Monk has the rough equivalent of dual-wielding short swords while wearing leather armor and taking penalties to other physical stats due to needing the wisdom to get the equivalent of leather armor.
The Monk can benefit from neither weapons nor armor, as Monk weapons pretty much universally bite in comparison to their unarmed strike, but their innate abilities don't really scale in such a way as to truly rival the weapons and armor that they're giving up. Bonuses they need. And the amulet of mighty fists costs more than twice what a comparable weapon would cost. To make matters worse, that caps out at +5, whereas many warriors would be buying +10-equivalent weapons before Greater Magic Weapon.
Monks get an innate AC bonus (that advances iff they take a lot of class levels in Monk) and can still benefit from Magic Vestment, but ultimately, you miss out on the more significant advantages of armor unless you're using bracers of armor, which cost as much as regular armor enchantments.
So, Monks has a lot of ground to make up; it's not that they don't need weapons and armor, so much as they can't benefit from them and miss out on their advantages while their innate abilities don't stack up, which is why they have to compensate with the rest of their gear, including that overpriced amulet of mighty fists, which actually eats up all the weapon/armor savings on its own; a single amulet of mighty fists costs as much as two equivalent weapons and an equivalent suit of armor combined. At the very least, they need stat boosters on dexterity, constitution, and wisdom, as well as possibly strength (which is kinda made moot by there not being a Dex/Con item that's not packaged with Str) as a primary source. All the usual incidentals that all non-caster melee needs have to be covered by magic items. And those bracers of armor mean you're not saving anything at all on armor, but you still need them for fortification and AC.
I have to agree with Lokie and others that monks can make good mage killers. At lower levels, their high movement allows them to get in close fast. At higher level, Abundant Step along with a grapple will seriously inconvenience your example of a flying mage (minimum 880'). You don't necessarily have to use up a lot of expendables (especially as the monk will likely have friends casting any needed buffs on them).
As stated, Abundant Step doesn't work. At the lower levels? The Barbarian is just as fast or faster until level 6. Much beyond that, mages start putting the real nasty toys like flight and Wall of Stone and Mirror Image to use, that Monks just don't have a counter for.
If the Monk has caster friends standing behind her buffing her, it's the caster friends who are doing the heavy lifting and providing the necessary tools to beat the mage. In fact, the Monk becomes a worse subject for this method, since that spell resistance blocks buffs and is thus an active liability in that role; the Fighter or especially the Paladin would be a better candidate to take to the skies.
As stated, Abundant Step doesn't work.
Well, that's not entirely true. It takes no action to fall on someone. :D
To me, Monks are a fascinating class, with divers benefits, incredible strengths, and some solid weaknesses. Sometimes you just won't know what hit you, and sometimes, a lot like a wizard who's out of good spells, he's just shaking his fist at you.
At the very least, they need stat boosters on dexterity, constitution, and wisdom, as well as possibly strength (which is kinda made moot by there not being a Dex/Con item that's not packaged with Str){Belt of Physical Might can be Dex/Con} as a primary source.
I have never seen their use of many abilities scores as a dependency, but as a strength. Need to up AC? Belt of Dex. Need to up it more? Headband of Wis at 1/3rd the cost of increasing the Dex belt. Both to +4 for less than a +6. And not just AC, but Ki Points, Stunning Fist DC, and Will saves.
Along with that advantage *is* the of being buffed. They are able to be buffed better, and usually easier/cheaper than anyone else. Their "leather armor" stacks with mage armor, and shield (via potion), Bull's, Cat's, Bear's, Owl's, inspire, bless, all that. If you put a monk in a party of all fighters/non-buffers, yes, you will lose out a bit. But relying on others for some things is not a weakness. They get more bang for their buffing buck.
To me, Monk is the class you pick when you roll *nice*, or have a really big point-buy, and feel like having some fun with things. They get more benefit out of multiple high ability scores than any other class, barring perhaps the Paladin. They're not "the uber-mage killer", or the most devastating anything. They're the Bard of non-casters, and that's a good thing.
I'm totally with you on the Dimension door limitation, but nothing says "bye bye Mirror Image" like a flurry of blows (misses count too now!)
1-point Wholeness of Body for me by the way - I just can't see a Monk using up Ki Points like that for such tiny healing, in anything but the most dire circumstances.
Edit: Oh, I wanted to say that the discussion on the worthwhile-ness of Wholeness of Body was one of the cordial I've seen on monks, bravo all :)
I wasn't so much addressing the state of the Monk class as a whole, but that they are still an extremely gear-dependent class.
But, going along? For flurry countering Mirror Image, that actually taps into one of their major weaknesses. If they're flurrying, they're not moving. If they're moving, they're not flurrying. If the Monk has to move more than ten feet to reach the mage, they can't flurry, because it requires a full attack.
Their stat requirements still mean they require the stats to function; while other classes can get by investing in two or three stats with ease, the Monk has to sacrifice across the board to raise four or five just to attain base functionality and get many of their class features to do anything at all.
Magic Vestment ultimately obviates Mage Armor.
The ironic thing about being more 'buffable' is that Monks actively shoot that in the foot with their spell resistance, which becomes an active liability, shutting down friendlies' spells unless you spend the standard action to turn it off.
The difference between Monk and Bard is that Bard abilities compliment each other and work together, while Monk abilities actively oppose each other. A lot of their abilities suggest that they're meant to keep moving and be a light-weight skirmisher type, yet at the same time, their most powerful ability, Flurry of Blows, can't be used in the same round as a move action. The Monk just doesn't synergize with itself at all.
Chakra Body Alignment
Prerequisite: Wholeness of Body ability, Wisdom 13 and Constitution 13.
Benefit: You may now use the Wholeness of Body ability as a move action. You also gain 1 additional use of the Wholeness of Body for free per day.Chakra Body Alignment Mastery
Prerequisite: Chakra Body Alignment Feat, Wholeness of Body ability, Wisdom 15 and Constitution 13.
Benefit: You may now use the Wholeness of Body ability as a swift action. You also gain 2 additional ki points.____________________________________________________________
Perhaps this might help fix the problem?
I'm assuming these are your creations?
First off... Extra Ki already gives 2 Ki points each time you take it.
Secondly, the first feat would need a slight rewording as WoB does not have "uses per day" anymore. Perhaps just have it increase the speed of your Ki abilities to a Move Action?
Thirdly, the second feat gives the benefit of Extra Ki + makes WoB a Swift action. Perhaps just have it make Ki abilities a Swift action?
First, I know it runs off of ki, but I wanted to put the 1/day in there because 2 extra ki for anything would be over powered.
Second, a 2nd tear feat devoting to such a limited power deserves reward.
Third, it should have been a swift action to start, so spending 2 feats JUST to get it where it was supposed to be would be even more of a waste, while spending 1 feat to jump from standard to swift just seemed like it was too much of a jump, and not enough of a bonus for something that, again, should have been that way to start.
Chakra Body Alignment
Prerequisite: Wholeness of Body ability, Wisdom 13 and Constitution 13.
Benefit: You may now use the Wholeness of Body ability as a move action. You also gain 1 additional use of the Wholeness of Body for free per day.Chakra Body Alignment Mastery
Prerequisite: Chakra Body Alignment Feat, Wholeness of Body ability, Wisdom 15 and Constitution 13.
Benefit: You may now use the Wholeness of Body ability as a swift action. You also gain 2 additional ki points.____________________________________________________________
Perhaps this might help fix the problem?
Good ideas Hex!
Those might work as alternate class abilities as well.
Thanks, glad you liked it.
So I lied... you "win".
My only further comment is "No comment".
I hope the OP was able to get what they needed.
I don't think that throwing around ideas and opinions is a win/lose situation Lokie. Unless of course you make it so...
Role-playing is about choices, and styles, some DMs run with hundreds of house-rules in their own worlds, others play out of the box, with RAW...
It's up to the GM and the People playing in their game.
I do not believe its about winning or losing either. But apparently "V V" does. Sitting in front of the computer and typing away we can describe just about any situation to our advantage.
I've long learned that I cannot "convince" someone of they do not want to believe in the first place. So putting out ideas that "V V" can just shoot down by saying "my wizards casts x,y,x" is not going to get me anywhere. Its futile.
However, I feel the need to say that YES there are permanent anti-magic effects to be found. At least one exists in Golarion. I'm sure the good people living in Magic Dead Alkenstar would be able to point out an ore or whatever from the Mana Wastes that could be made into a dart or some other throwing weapon that would put even a prepared wizard in a world of hurt as all their defenses fail.
And honestly, I've designed and played 3.5 Monks that required nearly nothing in the way of equipment. A good selection of feats does allot in determining what equipment you may or may not need. And with the new Ki Pool class feature... I can see the current Monk needing even less.
Some quick examples as I'm typing this before work and will have to get ready soon...
An Azuran Monk selecting the Shape Soulmeld feat from Magic of Incarnum several times can get multiple semi-permanent magic effects. These include (but are not limited to) flight, water walking, feather fall, and short range teleportation effects. A Monk designed using Magic of Incarnum material can also pick up Azure Touch for extra Wholeness of Body goodness... or Sappire Fist to increase the save DC's for their stunning blows and add extra damage besides. There is a short range Blindsense ability that can be picked up with a feat... and while it does require several feats to "bump it up" so it has a more useful range it can quickly negate the benefits of invisibility allowing the monk to pinpoint the square the wizard is in.
...and I'm out of time. 30 minutes till midnight and 30 minutes for me to get ready and get to work.
Hmm... while we're fiddling with ki powers and complaining about flurry interfering with mobility, how's this for a house rule. Rather than spending a ki point to add an attack to a flurry:
"You may spend 1 ki to use the attack action as a swift action. You must make this attack with a weapon you could use in a flurry of blows. In place of the attack action, you can use any combat maneuver which can be performed as a standard action."
And honestly, I've designed and played 3.5 Monks that required nearly nothing in the way of equipment. A good selection of feats does allot in determining what equipment you may or may not need. And with the new Ki Pool class feature... I can see the current Monk needing even less.I would be intensely interested in seeing these supposed 3.5 monks that worked well on level-appropriate foes with nearly nothing in the way of equipment.
At the moment, I don't see why people are so intensely dedicated to defending a 3/4 BAB, d8 HP class whose strategy is to hit people in the face, yet gets no bonus damage to do so nor any special abilities to not die when doing so. If you are a melee class and cannot kill things in melee and die to the full attacks of things in melee, what good are you?
I'd post them but I'm not sure where the character sheets are at since my latest move. I'll take a stab at putting down what I remember off the top of my head. My tactics which worked for me in the game I played the monk also follow. The campaigns I play in generally only reached mid level (around 10th)
My "combat" Monk's main attack and line of defense is for the most part a very strong Stunning attack. Its also important to pick up Pain Touch. I designed my Monk around Magic of Incarnum material, so for my Azurin Monk I also picked up the Sapphire Fist feat, Improved Essentia Capacity, and Bonus Essentia. My most important equipment purchase was Ki Straps which can be found in the Magic Item Compendium. I also eventually picked up a +2 strength item and a +2 or +4 wisdom item.
My Azurin's essentia pool and the Sapphire Fist and Improved Essentia Capacity feats allowed me to put 2 points of essentia into my Sappire fist giving me a +2 bonus on the save DC for my stunning attack and +2 damage on my stunning attack. At 3rd level when I picked up Pain Touch, I could stun an enemy for one round and leave him nauseated the following round. I think my Monk picked up a +2 strength item around 3rd level as loot. At 6th level the Bonus Essentia feat gave me another point of essentia to put into my Sapphire Fist, giving me another +1 to the save DC of my stunning attack and another +1 damage on my stunning attack. Also about that time I had saved up enough gold to pick up the Ki Straps which gave me another +2 bonus on the save DC of my stunning attack.
My main tactic in combat was to close in on a target (charging if possible) and Stun them (which I did 80%-90% of the time) which would put them out of the fight for two rounds. I could then move on to another target and let the party fighter bash on the target I just stunned, or unleash a flurry of blows on the target while it is nauseated starting with a stunning attack at the beginning of the flurry. Because of my relatively high strength I generally had very little trouble hitting. On my stunning attacks I did about +8 damage by 6th level, my regular attacks were at +5 damage a pop on top of monk damage appropriate to the level. Rarely did I need to worry about being hit in combat. However, when I needed the extra AC, I fought defensively or used total defense. (combined with my high ranks in tumble this gave me a +3 or +6 respectively) This usually was in response to things I could not stun, and I generally would provide the fighter a flanking buddy while fighting defensively and using the aid other action. The fighter would then go to town with power attacks until whatever-it-was got crushed.
Stunning my targets also have a fun side effect in that I also effectively disarmed them as well as they would drop whatever weapons or items they had in hand.
I didn't use much in the way of weaponry. The monk did carry a handful shuriken that he would use against unarmored targets. (Because of his 20 strength they did a minimum of 6 damage and on a flurry that could add up quick)
Over the Monk's career he did own and use an assortment of potions or alchemical items. Never did he have very many at any one time though. Mostly he carried an emergency healing potion (supplemented by Wholeness of Body) or two and some smoke sticks and tendertwigs. (Ninja Vanish!)
The group I played in worked together well, and we would take down enemies quickly. We often used Haste as a buff because it let the fighter keep up with my monk, and gave my monk an extra attack and ac.
I do not believe its about winning or losing either. But apparently "V V" does. Sitting in front of the computer and typing away we can describe just about any situation to our advantage.
I've long learned that I cannot "convince" someone of they do not want to believe in the first place. So putting out ideas that "V V" can just shoot down by saying "my wizards casts x,y,x" is not going to get me anywhere. Its futile.
You're taking this way too personal, chief, and you're ascribing motives that just ain't there.
Logical discourse is about one thing, and one thing only. The truth. Not about who's right, who's wrong, taking sides. It's about identifying accurate information. Making it personal is unproductive.
Fact: Standard mage defenses include things such as Invisibility, Wall of Stone, Mirror Image, and Fly. This is not a case of the Wizard pulling out spells specifically keyed to counter the Monk. It's the Wizard using the normal defenses that Wizards are expected to use.
Fact: In order to qualify as an exceptional mage-slayer, one must be uniquely suited to bypassing a mage's normal defenses.
Nothing you've provided establishes Monks as uniquely suited to taking down mages. Everything you bring up, a Barbarian can do just as well. And the antimagic dart is a non-factor. It's not, "I'm right, you're wrong." It's, "These premises do not promote the conclusion that Monk is an exceptional mage-slayer."
However, I feel the need to say that YES there are permanent anti-magic effects to be found. At least one exists in Golarion. I'm sure the good people living in Magic Dead Alkenstar would be able to point out an ore or whatever from the Mana Wastes that could be made into a dart or some other throwing weapon that would put even a prepared wizard in a world of hurt as all their defenses fail.
I'm looking at the campaign setting and I don't see anything about any sort of antimagic ore. In fact, unless I'm missing something, it looks like the mana wastes are just a big dead magic zone rather than any sort of antimagic field at all. And though it is entirely possible that I did miss that part, it's rather obscure, quite cheesy, almost certainly not RAI, and most importantly, something anyone could do, not just the Monk, meaning it contributes nothing at all to Monk as a uniquely-suited mage-slayer.
And honestly, I've designed and played 3.5 Monks that required nearly nothing in the way of equipment. A good selection of feats does allot in determining what equipment you may or may not need. And with the new Ki Pool class feature... I can see the current Monk needing even less.
Some quick examples as I'm typing this before work and will have to get ready soon...
An Azuran Monk selecting the Shape Soulmeld feat from Magic of Incarnum several times can get multiple semi-permanent magic effects. These include (but are not limited to) flight, water walking, feather fall, and short range teleportation effects. A Monk designed using Magic of Incarnum material can also pick up Azure Touch for extra Wholeness of Body goodness... or Sappire Fist to increase the save DC's for their stunning blows and add extra damage besides. There is a short range Blindsense ability that can be picked up with a feat... and while it does require several feats to "bump it up" so it has a more useful range it can quickly negate the benefits of invisibility allowing the monk to pinpoint the square the wizard is in.
If you're invoking 3.5, yes, 3.5 offers some solid options to Monk (most of which offer the chance to stop taking class levels in Monk in order to take somethingthat's any good). However, incarnum is not an ability unique to Monk. A Fighter or a Swordsage or a Knight or a Barbarian or a Cleric could all do the same. It's not anything that's unique to Monk, which is means it doesn't make Monk any more uniquely suited to the task of a mage-slayer.
And do note that you're invoking incarnum in Pathfinder General to defend a PF core class.
And with full access to 3.5 material, I can make a lowly Commoner who can clean up through mid levels. Doesn't make the class as a whole any good.
Calling me chief will get you nowhere. :)
(I myself am a mere serf working for my daily bread.)
Fact: The standard caster's defensive magic is not always up and running. Allot of the more potent spells work on a per round basis. Unless given pre-warning a caster will not prep these spells until combat begins.
Fact: The best offense against a caster is to hit them before the have a chance to put up their most potent defensive magics.
Fact: Most casters aside from divine ones have piss poor fortitude saves.
Fact: A Monk is uniquely qualified from levels 1-8 to stop most casters dead with an option that is available only to them from levels 1-8... Stunning Fist. A stunned wizard remains stunned until right before the Monks turn, at which point the monk can flurry of blows against the "usually" low AC easy to hit wizard, starting off his flurry with a stunning fist attack. (A barbarian does not have this option until after 8th level. In 3.5 a Barbarian would need to use a 9th level feat.)
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The campaign setting has, of course, been left rather vague and open. However, when you have an area such as the Mana Wastes that denies the use of magic, often times there is a reason why. Perhaps it is a certain type of anti-magic radiation. Who knows! The ore is not actually listed anywhere. It was just meant as a hypothetical option. I was just pointing out that there are indeed "permanent" anti-magic effects. Magic dead... is effectively anti-magic... is effectively magic dead. Po-tay-toe <> po-tah-toe. Magic does not work. I'll agree to wave this as an argument for monks as mage-slayers.
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Note... I'm posting the general workings of a 3.5 monk that I used in response to "A Man in Black" request to see a monk that did not need much equipment. I did not state that Incarnum was a "monk only" ability. The feats I did pick however only work for the Monk class until about 8th level when +8 BAB classes can pick up Stunning Attack.
I have not as yet been able to play a PF monk and never said I had done so. In fact... up thread I pretty much declared I'd need to play a PF monk before I could decide on if I would want to house-rule for my games that monks would only need to spend 1 point for WoB. I have not as of yet "defended" the PF Monk specifically just Monks in general. I can only state what has worked for me. Apparently, the games I've played in, have not been hard-core enough to give me the impression that "monks suck". Or I'm just better can creating characters than I believe I am.
However, as PF is backwards compatible, I fully intend to continue to use Magic of Incarnum as I really enjoy the flavor and options it provides.
If I can make a character of any class that is effective in the games I play the character in using whatever options are open to me, I think the system as a whole has provided what you need...considering that, I am by no means a super character creator.
I guess I'm just sick of "class-bashing" in general.
P.S. - I've never taken anything said or written here personally. I did post here a little late the other day shortly before bed-time and may responded with a little irritation, but that was not in any way intentional. I'm now posting about an hour before the earliest time I go to bed... so if I again appear to be taking things personally... I'm not. I'm actually in a fairly good mood right now. I blame the impersonal nature of the internets.
Fact: The standard caster's defensive magic is not always up and running. Allot of the more potent spells work on a per round basis. Unless given pre-warning a caster will not prep these spells until combat begins.
You're ignoring basic defenses on the grounds that they might not be up right away? Psh. And you're even invoking the edition that gives rise to Celerity of all things in order to bolster the Monk. That's extremely lopsided, assuming that one side is completely prepared and flawlessly built, while the other is completely off guard and has nothing ready, not even the basics of day-to-day self-protection.
Being able to get through those defenses is still an absolutely fundamental and vital aspect of being a mage-slayer that cannot merely be brushed off with, "well maybe the mage won't have those defenses."
Fact: The best offense against a caster is to hit them before the have a chance to put up their most potent defensive magics.
And the Wizard's fundamental strategy is to take out enemies before they can do anything. 3.5/PF is rocket tag. The realization that the game is, in fact, rocket tag doesn't change much.
And a mage is still liable to have that contingent Wall of Stone at the ready, set to go off when anyone charges 'em. After all, Contingency is perhaps the single most powerful defense in a mage's entire arsenal. And the only forewarning they need to have that spell active is, "I might be attacked this month."
Fact: A Monk is uniquely qualified from levels 1-8 to stop most casters dead with an option that is available only to them from levels 1-8... Stunning Fist. A stunned wizard remains stunned until right before the Monks turn, at which point the monk can flurry of blows against the "usually" low AC easy to hit wizard, starting off his flurry with a stunning fist attack. (A barbarian does not have this option until after 8th level. In 3.5 a Barbarian would need to use a 9th level feat.)
And standing a decent chance against mages at levels 1-8 isn't particularly meaningful, because mages have not yet exploded. In fact, from level 1-6, they don't have Dimension Door, their save button against grappling, so a Barbarian charging in and grappling the mage would be considerably more effective. Even a few levels beyond, they're not liable to actually prepare it.
And mage-versus-mage would be better at targeting that fortitude save, as well; mages are more free to invest in extremely high casting stats and DC boosters, meaning they're more suited to tagging those fortitude saves, leaving Monks at the status of so-so and second string, at best.
I guess I'm just sick of "class-bashing" in general.
Logically analyzing both the strengths and weaknesses of a class that happens to be very bad is not 'class bashing.' It's an essential element of understanding the game.
Firstly - I beg forgiveness for the continued thread-jack... but I'm having fun now.
"Rocket Tag" is a new term for me... interesting.
Before I continue, let me ask you this V. V. - I'm curious, what spells you would have active at any given time outside of combat? (I myself do not have allot of experience playing wizards. The highest level wizard I've played was at around 12th in 3.5. out of maybe 3 wizards I've ever created.)
The obvious, Mage Armor is hours per level and gives the benefit of a "chain shirt" in protection.
Past that... if you had a wizard of say... 11th level (having just gained access to contingency) what spells would you have active outside of combat?
Edit: And now off to bed as I should have been half an hour ago. heh.
Rocket tag is basically the game of disabling your enemies in a single shot. Any ability that can instantly remove an enemy from the fight is a rocket. If you can deal enough raw damage to kill an enemy in a single round, your attack serves as a rocket. Sleep is a rocket. A medusa's gaze is a rocket. 3.5 Solid Fog is a rocket.
Anyways. What defenses. Lessee, assuming no mercy... It's been a while since I've bothered with a Wizard. *Doth skim.* Huh. Contingency is personal-only. Okay, so the walls are out. Still, contingent Mirror Image, triggered upon being attacked in melee (assuming I don't do contingent Teleport, triggered by a free action spent screaming at any time). Endure Elements, depending on region. Mage Armor or Greater Mage Armor, possibly, though it's a trivial defense. I'm probably not going to bother with Contingent Energy Resistance yet. Nerveskitter's probably prepped.
I'd have my retributive spell up, depending on what build I was going with. An Orb of X metamagicked up the yin yang to the point where ya ain't gonna survive is possible. Metamagicked Ray of Stupidity or Shivering Touch are possible, with caveats. Sensory Deprivation is possible. Forceful Hand is possible.
I might have Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability up at this point. Most notably, for Benign Transposition, letting my familiar take my place if absolutely necessary. A followup metamagicked Ray of Stupidity or Shivering Touch are possible, to put the enemy in a coma or paralyze them respectively.
And at this point, I'm liable to have a fair amount of initiative-boosting gear.
I can't believe I forgot overland flight.
Well... for the purposes of this discussion if we are limiting the Monk to PF only material we should do the same for the wizard. Thus only spells from >>HERE would be be appropriate. Giving a Monk access to all books... its kinda like giving a wizard access to all spellbooks. Both can be termed "kinda silly".
Edit: I guess I should also ask what your standard trigger for contingency would be. Though is most cases anything that would trigger a contingency means that I've gotten at least one hit off on you.
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A lot of it is outdated due to 3.5, but yes, a good read.
<threadjack>
Some people here are not afraid of full BAB and all good saves.
Pathfinder monk already has those, for all intents and purposes but hit dice.
Except when it moves. Or can't full attack.
Isn't moving one of its main class features?
Good point.
If you are using a fighter you can also use the Disruptive and Spellbreaker feats.
Some people here are not afraid of full BAB and all good saves.Pathfinder monk already has those, for all intents and purposes but hit dice.
Except when they need to move. Or use a feat like Gorgon Fist. Or qualify for Feats. Or for CMD. Or for power attack. Or for everything else except Flurry of Blows and CMB.
I did some looking in to how a melee character can prevent a spellcaster from casting and noticed the option to ready an action. Could a melee character not move up to threaten the caster, ready an action "to distract/prevent spellcasting if the caster attempts to cast a spell", and then get a damaging attack when the caster tries to attack, force the caster to cast defensively if they try to cast or get an attack of opportunity, and get an attack of opportunity if the caster attempts to move away. Add the Step Up feat in, and the caster can't even use a 5-ft step to avoid the attack of opportunity. And, if the damaging attack has some sort of bleed/damage over time effect added, then that would force an additional concentration check. Force enough concentration checks and the caster will eventually fail one.Yes, a melee class can do that, and casting defensively doesn't prevent a readied attack from interrupting the spell.
Unfortunately, monks are bad at that, because they don't have full BAB except when they full attack!
Against Clerics and other classes that can potentially wear and cast in heavier armor I perhaps can see this... but why is full BAB a requirement for threatening wizards?
Also... a Monk would be better off attempting to stun the offending caster with a stunning attack and just prevent any action at all.
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Just an anecdote. I was playing a 4th level monk in a 3.5 OA game. Was scouting ahead of the party a bit, came up on an enemy sorc. No surprise, either side. I won init, closed, grappled. Next round pinned. I had Earth's Embrace (iirc the name of it) that let me do damage each round to a pinned enemy. Game, set, match.
Later the DM told me that it was a 12th level sorc meant to be a recurring BBEG. IDK what his spell list was like.
Earth's Embrace really didn't make much difference because in a couple rounds the party caught up to me. If the sorc hadn't already been dead, they would have coup de graced him as soon as they showed up.
Not trying to argue that at any level monk beats mage or vice versa, and I know some mages have ways of dealing with grapples, merely FWIW.
Later the DM told me that it was a 12th level sorc meant to be a recurring BBEG. IDK what his spell list was like.It was a pretty bad spell list. There are a number of options to exit a grapple easily at that level.
I have to add my personal experience with grapple in general regarding this; maybe in 3.x it was extremely easy for a caster to escape from a grapple thanks to Dimension Door, Teleport or Freedom of Movement, but in my recent game sessions I've seen quite a few creatures with spells or spell-like abilities caught in a grapple and struck on the spot.
PRD -> Glossary -> Grappled:
"A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell."
Now, excluding a caster with an active Freedom of Movement spell (which has a duration of 10 minutes per caster level - not a spell which can be active all the time) or a Contingency spell (a Contingent Dimension Door or Freedom of Movement require a caster level 12, a Contingent Teleport require a caster level 15), the required Concentration check to escape a Grapple can be fairly high.
This Sunday, the Druid's Animal Companion (a Constrictor Snake) of our group owned literally a poor Succubus who was grappled (and Constricted) every round... the DC to escape with her Greater Teleport or Etherealness spell-like ability was 17+ the CMB of the Snake (+16 vs. Grapple - +3 BaB, +1 Size, +8 Str, +4 Grab)... Even with her caster level 12 and Cha +8, she required a 13 or more to escape.
We are obviously speaking of a creature which is optimized to grapple other creatures - but the Succubus is a creature which is supposedly optimized to use her spell-like abilities quite well (+20 to Concentration checks).
Not every caster is prepared for every situation.
Just my 2c.
The healing ability sucks because of the weird scaling. When you have level 20 and can use 2 points to heal 20 damage it is a decent nitch heal.
I would suggest changing it a cost of 1 ki and heals 10 points. This way the ability will always be useful and you won't be burning through Ki as fast.
I don't understand your reasoning dulsin. You want to halve the cost and the benefit? That doesn't change anything but the length of time it takes to burn through them all.I took the suggestion as a static bonus. It is more beneficial right up to 20th level, where it becomes the same, but slower.
So anytime you use WoB, you spend 1 ki point and gain 10 hp. It's a slower heal at 11 and above, but at half cost. This really does peg it to an after-combat ability, though. But an extra 50hp is usually good to have in your pocket...
I'd go even further and allow the monk to burn as many points as he wants at one time (similar to 3.5 Lay On Hands or Wholeness of Body).