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Darkwood adds 10 GP to the cost of a wooden item per lb of the original item made.
Armor for Large and Small creatures weighs twice as much or half as much as armor for Medium creatures. Would the surcharge for using Mithral or Adamantine scale proportionately?
Mithral lists a cost of +500 GP per lb for a weapon, Adamantine for weapons is just listed as a flat +3000 GP; assuming that's priced for a longsword, that translates to +750 GP per lb.
I'd be tempted to
Darkwood adds 10 GP to the cost of a wooden item per lb of the original item made.
Armor for Large and Small creatures weighs twice as much or half as much as armor for Medium creatures. Would the surcharge for using Mithral or Adamantine scale proportionately?
Mithral lists a cost of +500 GP per lb for a weapon, Adamantine for weapons is just listed as a flat +3000 GP; assuming that's priced for a longsword, that translates to +750 GP per lb.
I'd be tempted to
For weapons and armor mithril and adamantine have flat costs depending on the type of item.
The advantage these items provide to the character is the same no matter the size. It therefore is not balanced to prize the items by weight. (Even if it makes sense in a RL context)The same also aplies to darkwood, but since it is relatively inexpensive the effect on game balance is negligible.
For weapons and armor mithril and adamantine have flat costs depending on the type of item.
The advantage these items provide to the character is the same no matter the size. It therefore is not balanced to prize the items by weight. (Even if it makes sense in a RL context)The same also aplies to darkwood, but since it is relatively inexpensive the effect on game balance is negligible.
Actually, I read the rules this way :
Sized weapons : Double cost and weight for a large weapon. Same price but half weight for small weapons.
That means, to me, that the cost of flat additions like Adamantine would be doubled as well. So, a medium adamantine longsword would be 3015gp, but a large would be 6030gp. Mithral however, would be based on weight, which would double the cost for a large wepaon, but half the weight for a small. I wouldn't double the doubled weapon though for mithral, you're already doing that by doubling the weight. A medium mithral longsword then would cost 2015gp, but a large would cost 4030gp and a small would cost 1015gp.
It's internally inconsistent, to be sure. Honestly I wish this was something they had fixed and just given a per pound cost for all special materials (like mithral and darkwood). Make the adamantine very expensive per pound, by all means, but make it have some reasonable relation to the item you are using it on. An adamantine dagger and an adamantine maul cost the same despite the maul using a LOT more metal than the dagger.
The easiest way to handwave around the cost and have it make sense is to note that larger creatures have less surface area relative to their mass so the amount of metal needed does not necessarily need to increase in thickness relative to the size of the user. For example, a door shield sized for a halfling, a human and a giant might not have to have thicker plate each time it went up in size, or at least not proportionally.
Not that I'm necessarily happy with this, but it at least sounds better to have the giant's shield be a certain amount of adamantium sheet metal bolted to underlying steel and oak, whereas the human's doesn't need the extra steel, and the halfling's is made out of pure adamant with no wood either.
Or at least that's how I'll explain it if I go with the fixed cost.
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That means, to me, that the cost of flat additions like Adamantine would be doubled as well.
I disagree. The "double cost" is based on the original weapon (in my reading of RAW.) So a Large Steel Longsword costs X and one made of Adamantine would add a specific amount per weapon.
For weapons and armor mithril and adamantine have flat costs depending on the type of item.
The advantage these items provide to the character is the same no matter the size. It therefore is not balanced to prize the items by weight. (Even if it makes sense in a RL context)The same also aplies to darkwood, but since it is relatively inexpensive the effect on game balance is negligible.
Would this be true for all special materials? (Adamantine, Cold Iron, Darkwood, Dragonhide, Mithral and Silver). All costs for these items would be based on medium size, regardless of the actual size of item?
Sized weapons : Double cost and weight for a large weapon. Same price but half weight for small weapons.That means, to me, that the cost of flat additions like Adamantine would be doubled as well...
I agree with doubling the prices for special materials for large items.
As the special material price is a 'item cost modifier' I would expect it to be a part of the items price, and therefore being doubled like the rest of the item price.If you do not double the price, you actually get an inconsistancy between Dragonhide and the rest of the materials. As DH doubles the masterwork price of the armor, it will affect the price equally whether you make the adjusted before or after the modifier for size.
I fail to see why all the other materials shouldn't be modified by size when DH is.
I agree with doubling the prices for special materials for large items.
As the special material price is a 'item cost modifier' I would expect it to be a part of the items price, and therefore being doubled like the rest of the item price.If you do not double the price, you actually get an inconsistancy between Dragonhide and the rest of the materials. As DH doubles the masterwork price of the armor, it will affect the price equally whether you make the adjusted before or after the modifier for size.
I fail to see why all the other materials shouldn't be modified by size when DH is.
I remember reading "somewhere" many years ago that adamantine and mithral do not change with size (as previously posted in this thread). Although darkwood and dragon hide have base cost modifiers, I suspect the modifiers were only to apply on a medium sized item. If dragon hide and darkwood are also meant to be a flat price regardless of size, then the modified cost for the medium sized item would be the cost.
I understand that from a pricing viewpoint, that the creators wanted to implement a "flat price" structure, to ensure there was a significant cost to mithril and adamantine to represent their uniqueness, and to ensure that early level characters were not loading up with adamantine and mithral weapons.
Since the costs for Cold Iron, Darkwood, Dragonhide and Silver are not as astronomically high as the other two, I wonder if the intent was instead to allow them to be adjusted by size. Unfortunately the designers were thinking in terms of standard-size (medium & small) player characters when they created the special materials section. They didn't even think of barding.
In the Excel character creator I am making, I need to try to make this "as official as possible". If there is any chance one of the Pathfinder designers could suggest how they would house rule such, it would really help to fill a rules void that has been open for years.
It would really be nice if in the future release of the Equipment Guide if special materials versus size costs could be addressed. Another void that exists is weapon cost and weight modification by size. There's a good table for armor modifiers on page 153, but no such table has ever existed for weapons. Following the reference to large weapon pricing, for weapon cost, I have traditionally just doubled or halved the cost for each size category outside of the "standard sizes":
Fine x .13
Diminuative x .25
Tiny x .5
Small x 1
Medium x 1
Large x 2
Huge x 4
Gargantuan x 8
Colossal x 16
Perhaps weapon costs were also meant to follow the humanoid armor pricing modifiers?
Mithril Weapon Pricing
Mithral weapons cost is calculated as 500gp / 1 lbs. The size of the weapon affects the weapons weight. Unlike darkwood, which mentions that the weight-based price is calculated on the original weight, mithral does not say this. I'm assuming then, that you would first half the weapon's weight, then apply the size modifier and then apply the per-weight cost modifier?
Example:
Large Mithral Battleaxe
10 gp base price + 6 lbs x .5 mithral mod x 2 large size mod x 500gp = 1010gp
Mithril Weapon Pricing
Mithral weapons cost is calculated as 500gp / 1 lb. The size of the weapon affects the weapons weight. Unlike darkwood, which mentions that the weight-based price is calculated on the original weight, mithral does not say this. I'm assuming then, that you would first half the weapon's weight, then apply the size modifier and then apply the per-weight cost modifier?
Example:
Large Mithral Battleaxe
10 gp base price + 6 lb x .5 mithral mod x 2 large size mod x 500gp = 1010gp
Acutally, it now occured to me that the pricing must be the same as Darkwood, since this is supposed to include the masterwork cost. Otherwise a medium mithral dagger would be 250gp which is less than the masterwork price. The pricing for mithral must be based on the original weight, and should include a caveat that it costs a minimum of 500 gp, if the weight is less than 1 lb, except for ammunition. A dart which is not ammunition is .5 lb, however this again would bring the cost to 250 gp, even though a masterwork dart would cost more.
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Armor for Large and Small creatures weighs twice as much or half as much as armor for Medium creatures. Would the surcharge for using Mithral or Adamantine scale proportionately?
Put simply, the game is well-balanced around race-selection already. If Gnome Fighters start getting exotic material-armor earlier than humans, that gives them a major advantage. House-rule it if you want, but I say it's good as-is.
Sure, in real-life smaller armor would need less materials, and would -probably- cost less. But in real-life there are no dragons, similarly there are some not-quite realistic rules in PF. Them's the breaks.
After thinking things through, it seems like it should be a flat cost no matter the size. It work alright when you start doubling for increased size, however if you start applying the dividing for decreased size things tend to not work out so well. Why? Master Work aspect of some of these armors and weapons. These are flat priced, and if it changed between medium and small this would have been noted.
So, has there been any more discussion on this or any input from the staff?
I am particularly interested in seeing if there is a a material cost modifier for large or small Adamantine weapons vs medium size.