Can an elemental sorcerer take the Improved Natural Attack feat?

[Shadow13.com]

Can a sorcerer of the elemental bloodline take the Improved Natural Attack feat to upgrade his ray?

The ray is considered a spell like ability, but is it also considered a natural weapon? Here are some factors I'm wondering about:

1) Unlike a wizard who must learn his spells, the sorcerer's talent is natural, so would the ray be a "natural attack"? The ability does 1d6 dmg and can be used 3+CHA/day. Since this ability is summoned from within, it's technically "natural".

2) Sorcerers of the abyssal and draconic bloodlines have claws which are treated as natural weapons and can benefit from the Improved Natural Attack feat. So would the ray be also be a (ranged) natural attack?

3) Rays are included under the Weapon Focus feat, so in addition to being a spell-like ability, they must also be considered a weapon. If it's considered a weapon, does that disqualify it from being a natural attack?

Also, rays are included under the Weapon Focus feat, but aren't expressly mentioned under the Weapon Specialization Feat. Does this mean the Weapon Specialization feat cannot be applied to the ray? As a ranged attack, I would think it would be eligible for the Weapon Specialization feat.

Are there any other feats/items that can be used to buff the ray?

Any help clarifying these rules would be appreciated.
Thanks!

[Nethys]

Rays are not natural attacks. Even the Elemental Sorcerer's one. Yes, Weapon Focus would help to buff it, though that's about it. Once you become a 6th level caster you could take "Empower Spell-Like Ability" to have it do more damage 3 times per day.

Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys

[Weylin]

Shadow,

That is an extremely liberal interpration of "natural attack". By that logic, a dragon's breath weapon is a natural attack as is a gorgon's breath weapon or a medusa's gaze attack. You could also through that logic apply it to a Cleric's Negative Energy Channeling. So I think this loose of a view on it is a serious mistake.

Natural Attack refers to things like claws, horns, fangs and in the case of monk's their fists (based onanother thread).

The sorcerer's ability is a spell-like ability or a supernatural ability depending on the text.

So you could take the feats that modify those type of abilities, but from what I see, by the RAW you could not apply it to to the sorcerer's class abilities. You might be able to stretch it to apply to the draconic and abyssal bloodlines abilities, but I can easily see a DM ruling so snice while they are treated as natural weapons, they are also summoned weapons essentially.

-Weylin

[Majuba]

Shadow13.com wrote:

Also, rays are included under the Weapon Focus feat, but aren't expressly mentioned under the Weapon Specialization Feat. Does this mean the Weapon Specialization feat cannot be applied to the ray? As a ranged attack, I would think it would be eligible for the Weapon Specialization feat.

Are there any other feats/items that can be used to buff the ray?

Weapon Specialization should work for Rays - it's just rare for a Sorcerer to qualify for it (an Eldritch Knight has a good chance though).

Improved Critical (ray) can be useful as well.

[Zurai]

Natural attacks are, by definition, Natural abilities. ONLY Natural abilities qualify as natural attacks. Any ability that is listed as (Ex), (Su), or (Sp) (Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-Like) is not a natural attack. All Sorcerer, Cleric, and Wizard bloodline/domain/school abilities are one of those three types, and thus none of them are natural attacks EDIT: Except the ones that specifically state otherwise.

[dulsin]

A dragon bloodline sorcerer has claw attack so they could.

[Zurai]

Only because the Claws ability specifically says to treat them as natural weapons. Just because they're claws doesn't mean they automatically are natural weapons.

[Shadow13.com]

Yeah, that's what I thought. I was leaning towards "no" for the Improved Natural Weapon feat, but I wanted to make sure I had all the facts before I shot it down.

Thanks for the input.

Majuba, you think that Weapon Specialization applies to rays?
I find it odd that the description for the Weapon Focus feat specifically mentions rays but Weapon Specialization does not.
But the ray does seem to be treated as a ranged weapon and it can score critical hits, so I don't see why it wouldn't qualify for Weapon Specialization. So maybe you're right.

[Weylin]

Shadow13.com wrote:

Yeah, that's what I thought. I was leaning towards "no" for the Improved Natural Weapon feat, but I wanted to make sure I had all the facts before I shot it down.

Thanks for the input.

Majuba, you think that Weapon Specialization applies to rays?
I find it odd that the description for the Weapon Focus feat specifically mentions rays but Weapon Specialization does not.
But the ray does seem to be treated as a ranged weapon and it can score critical hits, so I don't see why it wouldn't qualify for Weapon Specialization. So maybe you're right.

Makes sense to me that Ray would not be mentioned under Weapon Specialization. Usually those using Ray effects dont get access to that feat (4th level Fighter only afterall all). So, it only comes up if someone does some dedicated mutliclassing into Fighter.

I would say if someone does take 4 levels of fighter though that Weapon Specialization does apply to Rays. Weapon Specialization is an extension of the Weapon Focus tree.

-Weylin