Fantasy RPGs are about swords and violence and monster slaying.
And yet, in 99% of the illustrations on my bookshelf, we see people waving swords around at monsters, never plunging them hilt-deep into them. Rarely is there blood spatter, still rarer are wounds depicted on the heroes...
That's one of the things I've noticed about the PRPG core rules, in a few pictures it looks like swords are actually sharp things used for cutting people open. I really like that.
If I had to guess, I'd say the anticipated audience for Pathfinder is a few years older than the more main-stream fantasy RPG. I'd like to see Paizo run with it. It's time the illustrations became representative of the in-game behavior. If mothers have a problem with their children seeing such things, well then, they should know what's actually going on in the game, shouldn't they?
This is all by way of saying "keep up the good work!" Encourage your illustrators to use more red ink.
Thanks!
Blood blood blood
I love violence in sword and sorcery. I him a huge Robert e Howard fan and use lots of violent over the top mayhem as I describe combat. Slashed tendons, punctured internal organ, and bones splintering. Flag stones become smeared and slick with blood. Cavern walls get splattered in crimson as arties get ripped open and a fountain of blood streams out.
that sounds awesome, but sadly I do not think we would ever see it
There's always The Final Wish cover. Although Jhavhul's character shot hides the gore on the front cover, the picture is reproduced in full in above the Table of Contents.
Although there's less gore, the art for Malebolgia in Book of the Damned, Vol. I, Princes of Darkness may help sate your ghoulish craving for violence. And speaking of ghoulish craving (from Carrion Hill)...
There's always The Final Wish cover. Although Jhavhul's character shot hides the gore on the front cover, the picture is reproduced in full in above the Table of Contents.
Yeah, that cover rocked too! Anyone seen any other "More gratuitous than usual" Pathfinder pics they'd like to name?
We have noticed, and we like it. Pathfinder could do worse than to become "the grownup fantasy RPG." The rules are a little more complex, the APs are definitely more maturely themed than their mainstream counterparts.
I know I said this more or less in the OP, but frankly I think being too PG is silly, given the basic premise of the game. Maybe if my players saw the iconics bleeding out a little more, they'd be less shocked when it happens to them!
Ahhh, I was just trying to think of a movie to watch tonight. A Clockwork Orange it is! Thanks for the help EL. ;-)
perhaps some of the artist who specilize in fantasy could get together, each draw a new picture with heroes fighting the monsters from the beastie book, drawn for adults, then put it out in a book. giving us not only great artwork to show the monsters, but multiple new ones so players have to figure out what it is with out the easy recognition of the normal monster's picture. imagine if you will a ghoul pulling out someone's intestines while another hero splits its face wide open with a war axe.
Seconded. I merely request that for certain creatures (dryads, nymphs, succubi), the fighting should be of a... different nature.
I mean grapple. Like firefly uses the word!
If we're going to use violence, we cannot neglect it's twin sister sex!
Unrelated, but the topic hit a memory bank...
The new face of ULTRAVIOLENCE!
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perhaps some of the artist who specilize in fantasy could get together, each draw a new picture with heroes fighting the monsters from the beastie book, drawn for adults, then put it out in a book. giving us not only great artwork to show the monsters, but multiple new ones so players have to figure out what it is with out the easy recognition of the normal monster's picture. imagine if you will a ghoul pulling out someone's intestines while another hero splits its face wide open with a war axe.Seconded. I merely request that for certain creatures (dryads, nymphs, succubi), the fighting should be of a... different nature.
I mean grapple. Like firefly uses the word!
If we're going to use violence, we cannot neglect it's twin sister sex!
Because in America, where most of Paizo's customers live, ultraviolence is just harmless stuff, but even the suggestion of a nipple, never mind sex, can cause mass panic. No, I don't understand it either.
Because in America, where most of Paizo's customers live, ultraviolence is just harmless stuff, but even the suggestion of a nipple, never mind sex, can cause mass panic. No, I don't understand it either.
Ultraperversion! I want to cause panic! Don't listen to the Hithhiker's Guide! Panic panic panic panic!
BEHOLD THE NIPPLE OF ULTIMATE DOOM!
Fear is power. I shall rule the world.
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Because in America, where most of Paizo's customers live, ultraviolence is just harmless stuff, but even the suggestion of a nipple, never mind sex, can cause mass panic. No, I don't understand it either.perhaps some of the artist who specilize in fantasy could get together, each draw a new picture with heroes fighting the monsters from the beastie book, drawn for adults, then put it out in a book. giving us not only great artwork to show the monsters, but multiple new ones so players have to figure out what it is with out the easy recognition of the normal monster's picture. imagine if you will a ghoul pulling out someone's intestines while another hero splits its face wide open with a war axe.Seconded. I merely request that for certain creatures (dryads, nymphs, succubi), the fighting should be of a... different nature.
I mean grapple. Like firefly uses the word!
If we're going to use violence, we cannot neglect it's twin sister sex!
To take from the movie Eurotrip, "America was founded by religious prudes who fled Europe to escape all the wild kinky sex... I'm just going back to reclaim my birthright."
Sex is part of life, and it plays almost as big a part in my campaigns as violence does, our Sharressan priestess once "distracted" the dragon, while the rest of the group wiped out his minions.
More sex in my violence.... please. ;)
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perhaps some of the artist who specilize in fantasy could get together, each draw a new picture with heroes fighting the monsters from the beastie book, drawn for adults, then put it out in a book. giving us not only great artwork to show the monsters, but multiple new ones so players have to figure out what it is with out the easy recognition of the normal monster's picture. imagine if you will a ghoul pulling out someone's intestines while another hero splits its face wide open with a war axe.Seconded. I merely request that for certain creatures (dryads, nymphs, succubi), the fighting should be of a... different nature.
I mean grapple. Like firefly uses the word!
If we're going to use violence, we cannot neglect it's twin sister sex!
Now I can't get the image of a Succubus vs Dryad vs Nymph... grapple out of my mind. :)
(My gold is on the Succubus.)
All this talk of ultraviolence.... gets me thinking of terrible art like this travesty. I like some of the stuff that Paizo's put out with actual combat and blood and what-not (poor, defenseless musician) but there's a point that it just becomes ridiculous.
All this talk of ultraviolence.... gets me thinking of terrible art like this travesty.
LOL! That's hilarious.
All this talk of ultraviolence.... gets me thinking of terrible art like this travesty.
Ha! I dunno, I sort of like it. It has a "Where the Wild Things Are: EXTREME EDITION" feel to it.
DoS raises a good point though. I'm not hoping for gore-for-gore's-sake. It should be depicted realistically by artists, and the reason we want to see red ink is because it is there in the game.
1d8 longsword damage is not a a carebearstare.
All this talk of ultraviolence.... gets me thinking of terrible art like this travesty.
yeah but that piece of art is supposed to be ridiculous....isn't that from hackmaster? I love the cover of the hacklopedias. Its something like eight volumes with each cover depicting a different member of the iconic party being brutally slaughtered by a monster stated out in the manual. Great stuff.
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Don't wanna be the Nay-sayer here but I actually like that my lil' son loves to look through my Pathfinder material (he LOVES the trolls from Classic Monsters) and I'd hate to have to put it away because of too graphic violence.
So if something like this has to be done, then please, Paizo, use it very sparingly.
I'm still expecting to see someone partially(or in the process of being) disintergrated.
All this talk of ultraviolence.... gets me thinking of terrible art like this travesty.
That's just awful. I don't mind people getting brutally mutilated. I mean, give me more of it.
But the style is atrocious. :P
Interesting! It would be cool to get a "make me an orc cleaving a wizard in half" commission :D
I still remember quite clarly the cover illo of a Genie cutting the arm of a woman on the Legacy of Fire AP. I don't like gratuituos violence, but for the sake of action/realism, some blood spatter or gore is just "healthy" every now and then.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Blood blood blood
I love violence in sword and sorcery. I him a huge Robert e Howard fan and use lots of violent over the top mayhem as I describe combat. Slashed tendons, punctured internal organ, and bones splintering. Flag stones become smeared and slick with blood. Cavern walls get splattered in crimson as arties get ripped open and a fountain of blood streams out.
Houserule: Gibs. If you kill an enemy on a crit, OR if you do enough damage to reduce an enemy to negative Con hp from positive hp, you may "describe the gruesome manner of your foe's demise." Quite the popular and oft-invoked houserule in my games.
Now I can't get the image of a Succubus vs Dryad vs Nymph... grapple out of my mind. :)
Makes me think of Tyralandi from STAP. Tatted-up goth chick half-fiend nymph. Hotsauce.
Because in America, where most of Paizo's customers live, ultraviolence is just harmless stuff, but even the suggestion of a nipple, never mind sex, can cause mass panic. No, I don't understand it either.
RPG publishers aren't concerned with offending the sensibilities of America's mothers as much as they are with making the hobby friendly to female gamers. You can only pander eye candy to male gamers so much before it starts to get annoying to women. Anybody remember the Seoni Christmas card controversy?
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Because in America, where most of Paizo's customers live, ultraviolence is just harmless stuff, but even the suggestion of a nipple, never mind sex, can cause mass panic. No, I don't understand it either.RPG publishers aren't concerned with offending the sensibilities of America's mothers as much as they are with making the hobby friendly to female gamers. You can only pander eye candy to male gamers so much before it starts to get annoying to women. Anybody remember the Seoni Christmas card controversy?
Well, yeah, if you want to go with the real reason.
RPG publishers aren't concerned with offending the sensibilities of America's mothers as much as they are with making the hobby friendly to female gamers. You can only pander eye candy to male gamers so much before it starts to get annoying to women. Anybody remember the Seoni Christmas card controversy?
It is not only the ladies, but their admittedly whipped boyfriends (such as myself) who resent too much of this stuff, because frankly it isn't a part of my enjoyment. And my girlfriend would probably roll her eyes a lot less in the game store, which means there's money in it.
All this talk of ultraviolence.... gets me thinking of terrible art like this travesty.
I think this was one of the pics Sendak chose to leave out of "Where the Wild Things Are"...
All this talk of ultraviolence.... gets me thinking of terrible art like this travesty.That's just awful. I don't mind people getting brutally mutilated. I mean, give me more of it.
But the style is atrocious. :P
You know what's also atrocious? Look at the drow sorceress in the background. She's not doing anything to help her minions, aside from revealing her unsightly dark elfin armpit fur. Now THAT is atrocious!
All this talk of ultraviolence.... gets me thinking of terrible art like this travesty. I like some of the stuff that Paizo's put out with actual combat and blood and what-not (poor, defenseless musician) but there's a point that it just becomes ridiculous.
How do I use this as my avatar?
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You know what's also atrocious? Look at the drow sorceress in the background. She's not doing anything to help her minions, aside from revealing her unsightly dark elfin armpit fur. Now THAT is atrocious!All this talk of ultraviolence.... gets me thinking of terrible art like this travesty.That's just awful. I don't mind people getting brutally mutilated. I mean, give me more of it.
But the style is atrocious. :P
INVISIBUL SHAKKELS!
You can only pander eye candy to male gamers so much before it starts to get annoying to women. Anybody remember the Seoni Christmas card controversy?
There was a controversy? The female gamers I know who received the card didn't have a problem with it at all.
You can only pander eye candy to male gamers so much before it starts to get annoying to women. Anybody remember the Seoni Christmas card controversy?There was a controversy? The female gamers I know who received the card didn't have a problem with it at all.
All hell broke loose. Or at least some of it. Yeah, that's probably more accurate:
Some hell broke loose.
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You can only pander eye candy to male gamers so much before it starts to get annoying to women. Anybody remember the Seoni Christmas card controversy?There was a controversy? The female gamers I know who received the card didn't have a problem with it at all.
a few points
1. You (presumably) only know a small percentage of the female gamer population.2. You assume that only women would be offended.
Anecdotes are unhelpful - For instance, I am a man and I find it insulting when businesses caricature my gender, including myself, as boorish sex-addicts whose critical faculties can be suspended by showing us some cleavage.
So I have a problem with the eye candy approach. But I do not speak for all men,
I prefer to see pictures with the necessary verisimilitude to aid me in immersing myself in the game world.
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Blood, blood, glorious blood!
Nothing quite like it while chewing the cud.Come with me, down to the hollow
Where we will wallow
In glorious blood!
<repeat>
Y'know, I too sing a similar song based on the same tune. Scary.
Blood, Blood, rich human blood.
Spilled onto the altar, or trod into the mud.
So, follow me follow (wonderful!)
Down to the hollow (glorious!)
And there we will wallow in glorious blood!
a few points
1. You (presumably) only know a small percentage of the female gamer population.
2. You assume that only women would be offended.Anecdotes are unhelpful - For instance, I am a man and I find it insulting when businesses caricature my gender, including myself, as boorish sex-addicts whose critical faculties can be suspended by showing us some cleavage.
So I have a problem with the eye candy approach. But I do not speak for all men,
I prefer to see pictures with the necessary verisimilitude to aid me in immersing myself in the game world.
I'll file your first two points and your following line under "D" for "duh."
The fact that I was pointing out the reaction I witnessed was not meant to speak for the entire gaming community.
Seoni had been an iconic character long before that Xmas card was delivered. Her outfit, sans Santa hat, has also been a regular staple. Her clothes can hardly be considered conservative and definitely not designed for utility in adventuring situations. They show copious amounts of skin and afford obvious sex appeal. Yet only when she dons a furry hat and strikes a coquettish pose does the uproar begin? I find that to be somewhat silly. It seems an extreme leap to consider that by sending out this image that Paizo Publishing wishes to "suspend your critical faculties" with it.
Sex has long been a method used in advertising. Often it is utilized with products that have no real sexual use or connection, but I hardly think that that Seoni Christmas e-card was an overt advertising ploy. I give Paizo a bit more credit than to attempt to pull a "Hey! Look! Cartoon boobs! Now buy our stuff while your critical faculties are disabled!"
a few points
1. You (presumably) only know a small percentage of the female gamer population.
2. You assume that only women would be offended.Anecdotes are unhelpful - For instance, I am a man and I find it insulting when businesses caricature my gender, including myself, as boorish sex-addicts whose critical faculties can be suspended by showing us some cleavage.
So I have a problem with the eye candy approach. But I do not speak for all men,
I prefer to see pictures with the necessary verisimilitude to aid me in immersing myself in the game world.
I'll file your first two points and your following line under "D" for "duh."
The fact that I was pointing out the reaction I witnessed was not meant to speak for the entire gaming community.
Seoni had been an iconic character long before that Xmas card was delivered. Her outfit, sans Santa hat, has also been a regular staple. Her clothes can hardly be considered conservative and definitely not designed for utility in adventuring situations. They show copious amounts of skin and afford obvious sex appeal. Yet only when she dons a furry hat and strikes a coquettish pose does the uproar begin? I find that to be somewhat silly. It seems an extreme leap to consider that by sending out this image that Paizo Publishing wishes to "suspend your critical faculties" with it.
Sex has long been a method used in advertising. Often it is utilized with products that have no real sexual use or connection, but I hardly think that that Seoni Christmas e-card was an overt advertising ploy. I give Paizo a bit more credit than to attempt to pull a "Hey! Look! Cartoon boobs! Now buy our stuff while your critical faculties are disabled!"
Can I just ask for more Seoni? Or am I being objectionable?
My only objection to the Seoni Christmas card was that it looked like she had two left feet. Or was it right feet? Her feet looked like they were both of the same body part, not a symmetrical mirrored pair.
Seoni is a sorceress. They're pretty much supposed to be hot.
I think it speaks well of Paizo that of all their female iconics, they only have one that is the super-hotness. I mean they've also got a female paladin who no doubt has a decent CHA score but you don't see her in lingerie because it's not her thing. Kyra the cleric is good looking too, but you don't see her wearing Seoni's clothes.
The barbarian wears kind of skimpy clothes, but she doesn't ooze sex appeal like Seoni does. That's just who Seoni is.
I was at work today and at lunch I was thinking that Paizo needs a hot female bard to complement the hot female sorceress. I mean there's Lem, but he's a male halfling bard. That's hardly the same ballgame. Bards need a bit of sex appeal.
All that having been said, I think the violent art is cool. I LOVE the ghoul stuff, including the Skinsaw Murders cover (that my forum avatar is from). I mean it doesn't show blood, but those ghouls are clearly taking a body, maybe even a live one, down that well.
I remember an article that appeared in Dragon magazine...I'm thinking pre-3rd edition or early 3E. There was one particular piece of artwork of a halfling standing over the fallen body of an orc. He held a bloody club in his hand and the orc's brains were spilling from his head. Apparently Dragon caught quite a bit of heat for that particular picture, with people writing in saying it went beyond the bounds of good taste and that the violence was gratuitous.
I can see their point. It was much more overt than anything I had seen in the magazine before. Granted, it was rather cartoonish in nature, but still a graphic depiction of things that aren't normally rendered for the game, other than in color commentary from the DM.
Where to begin drunk on a Friday night?
Whoops! My bad! Saturday morning.
Are others more interested in my opinion/response to others? Have I yet to post enough to warrant that kind of clout. Better stick to my own opinion (while I still remember it) before I get to others.
POTENTIAL VS. KINETIC
OP, as I understand it, was griping about the dearth of "money shots" (for lack of a better term) in graphic art. Having three friends to dress up as the Droogees one All Hallow's Eve, I, anecdoctadally, know a bit about the old ultra violence. (TANGENT: and no, I wasn't Alex, in fact, I was Pete; but yes, "Alex" did have the fake eyelash. SECANT: Three out of four said, "Who the f are you four supposed to be?" while one out of four said, "That's the coolest f'ing Halloween costumes I've ever f'ing seen ! ! !"END TANGENT/SECANT).
If you've followed this far, then I wonder if you can tell me how many calories I've burned on the BACKSPACE key? Did I mention inebriation?
No? Good. I'd hate to disillusion my constituents. Oh, can't be that bad, I just spelled "c-o-n-s-t-i-t-u-e-n-t-s."
ANYWAY, my point is I enjoy that there is ***NOT*** a great deal of blood/gore/splatterporn in the artwork. To me, the artwork is enough to set up the scene for each individual hero. But at the moment of, forgive the pun (4 backspaces), execution, it is each PLAYER that extends that moment through to the blood spurt. The art work is the POTENTIAL of all that the PLAYER carries through KINECTICALLY.
If you clicked then I don't want to hear you complain. I'm 35. I remember when mTV played videos. And videos were incoherent "Gee, I wonder what we can do?" mini-movies. But it was a time when visual art was expressive. Watch videos today. They rarely tell a story anymore and are usually a collection of quick cuts of "how cool am I/are we?" Yes, yes, yes, I'm sure you can enumerate a specific example here and there. I'm not debating that. But for each one you can name, I'll easily rattle off 10 from one year in the 80's when videos were figuring out what they were (before YouTube). Don't mess with me on this, I'm 35 with eidetic memory when it comes to 80's music.
I'm rambling. I've re-read and am now aware of this. I had a point, I'll get back to it after the spoiler (did I mention enebriation?) You're reading, so don't give your grief. MY POINT IS: We (American, b/c being American (and how self-centered is that b/c there's a whole other continent named America, but when we say "America" we all know we're talking about not even NORTH America, but the United States of America (*cue Sousaphone (and if you don't know what a Sousaphone is you are are a degenerate [EXPLETIVE DELETED]))) are fed images and NOTHING is left to the imagination.
So, have I made my point? Sure I have! But the point of a needle is keenly felt and the point of the push-pin hand mold isn't even felt as a prick (I mean that in a non-phallic reference). I am aware of the diarrhea of the fingers that I am typing (did I mention inebriation?) and am yet, curiously, uninterested in stopping it. Judgement is the first thing to go and yet the knowledge of same, does not prohibit its inhibition.
You'll have to delve, if you're interested. Of course, you could just say I'm drunk to alleviate you laziness, or crawl through, up to you.
Maurice Sendak; for Evil Lincoln
I met him. I was nine. He came to my school. He drew a Wild Things original piece of artwork on, and I don't care how drunk you think I am at this point, but I swear on the LORD, SWEET JESUS, 30 feet of butcher paper he tore straight off from the roll. He did it in charcoal and chalk highlights. I was in the third grade. The librarian, Mrs. Kraft (who had a phobia of rats), hung that monster masterpiece up like it was the Mona Lisa (and to us, students and teachers, it was the [EXPLETIVE DELETED] Mona Lisa). The man I met, who may very well have changed from the man I met 1983, or my idolized interpretation of him sees him through rose-colored lenses, would pitch the proverial fit over the movie that is out, so please don't troll me about that steaming pile of let's all feel good manure.
Anecdotes are unhelpful . . .
Well, I'm sorry the rest of us aren't card-carrying members of Gallup Poll! The vast majority of us don't go around taking surveys of tens of thousands of diverse socio-economic groups to insure a valid sample population. Most of us, Hell maybe I'm the only one (Hell, maybe I'm the only one who fears a place called Hell enough to capitalize the son of a b&~$&), don't have that kind of time and can only provide on a [EXPLETIVE DELETED] message board ANECTDOTAL stories. For me, it's why I read the [EXPLETIVE DELETED] message boards in the first place! To hear the stories/experiences/advice/etcetera,etcetera of other [EXPLETIVE DELETED] gamers.
SEONI
Her sexy outfits account for her high DEX bonus to AC, but low armor bonus. Her high DEX isn't so much from her Matrix-stlye bullet-time dodging abilities, but from the fact that your BBEG is too busy staring at her mamaries/gluteous/legs/etc. to focus on actually killing her. Heck, I might even give her a CHA bonus to AC for that!
Dang, if you read through all that (I know I didn't proof-read) then you're a better man than I, Gunga-Din!
My only objection to the Seoni Christmas card was that it looked like she had two left feet. Or was it right feet? Her feet looked like they were both of the same body part, not a symmetrical mirrored pair.
You noticed her feet?
See? Picture couldn't have been that bad, people still looked at her feet.
On the other hand, I hear there's people who really like feet, so the jury is still out.
Where to begin drunk on a Friday night?
Raise your voice in prayer to the Porcelain God? Ah, wait, no, that's how to end drunk on a Friday night. Or Sunday morning. Yes, I know I skipped Saturday there. I'm talking about proper drunk.
What to do when drunk and on a computer? Well, posting something (It was more than 2 words so I didn't read it - this is the internet, remember) is a fine way. I always liked playing some multiplayer games, totally rocking, and then telling everyone they've been owned by a guy you wouldn't trust to not run into something in a straight hallway. I bet that back in the day, a couple of counterstrike players hanged themselves because of my escapades. But that was long ago. I cannot stomach counterstrike players any more. I don't speak their language. And I don't mean English or German. I speak those. They don't. They speak b!&%#+!+, and speak it fluently. Not my dialect, either.
What's this all about? I think it is in part to brag about my prowess in some game, and in part to show that I can write a lot of nonsense on a Saturday morning - no, wait, the clock says it's past noon now! - while stone dead sober.
But let me end it with saying I still don't mind pretty women in pictures. Or pretty men (though I don't personally want to look at pretty men - but others do, and I don't mind everyone getting something to look at).