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While in most situations Vital Strike isn't the best option for a player character, for many monsters it's an extremely good choice.
Take the humble tyrannosaurus as an example. As it is, he does a meager 4d6+22 with his bite attack. But exchange some of his feats with Improved Natural Weapon (bite), Vital Strike and Greater Vital Strike and it becomes a not so meager 18d6+22. So with only 3 feats, he more than doubled his average damage while ignoring the usual disadvantage of vital strike (no cascading attacks, but he hasn't got them anyway).
The same goes for any other monster with one strong natural attack and a BAB sufficiently high to qualify for vital strike and its improved and greater version.
The same would probably apply to feats like Cleave and Great Cleave.
Or are those feats unusable with natural weapons?
Pretty sure VS wasn't playtested with non-PCs in mind.
Animal companions have a list of feats they can pick from (VS isn't on it), so a tyrannosaurus with VS would have to be a DM creation.
Edit: There is a possibility of getting VS on an animal companion -- it would have to have an Int of 3 or greater.
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Pretty sure VS wasn't playtested with non-PCs in mind.
Animal companions have a list of feats they can pick from (VS isn't on it), so a tyrannosaurus with VS would have to be a DM creation.
Edit: There is a possibility of getting VS on an animal companion -- it would have to have an Int of 3 or greater.
Oh, I wasn't arguing about animal companions. For them, Vital Strike isn't that great since at the 9th effective druid level, animals with only one natural attack get an additional attack at -5.
Druids, on the other hand, also benefit greatly from taking Vital Strike or Improved Vital Strike.In my opinion, monsters shouldn't become much more effective just by changing their feat selection.
In my opinion, monsters shouldn't become much more effective just by changing their feat selection.
As a DM, I constantly want to strengthen and weaken monster damage output quickly without crazy side effects. In the later levels, unless something ridiculously large or otherwise unique, a monster that has a single natural weapon hit is going to get mowed down by PCs with relatively little resource utilization. With VS, I like that there's a quick way to increase monster natural weapon damage on single hits very quickly and easily.
That said, with the various nerfs to polymorphing mechanics, it might be necessary for a druid to have the VS feat chain to keep up in damage output with other classes. I'd have to see how it pans out compared to other classes. My gut sense is that overall druid + VS seems strong, but nothing that makes me cringe. You're trading power (full attack actions) for flexibility (one hit a round + movement).
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Did a thread search, and this was the only one that came up, so I thought I would resurrect it for others who have questions like myself.
For a creature with multiple natural weapons (not iterative attacks) like for example a dragon, with the vital strike feats (like my friend the Adult Black Dragon
Do they only get to make 1 attack and apply the effects of Vital Strike, do they get to only make their primary attacks and apply the effects of vital stike, or do they get to apply it to all their attacks?
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There is no restriction in the feat description. But monster design is tricky business, simply because something is allowed doesn’t mean it should be used, But then again if you have player who annoys you with Munchkin-ness why not Munchkin you monsters.
And for Galnörag,
“Q: What type of action (standard, full, move, swift, free) does Vital Strike use?
A: (Jason Bulmahn) Vital Strike is an attack action, which is a type of standard action. Note: Attack Action means it is one of the types of action listed under Standard Actions defined on page 182 or Standard Actions List on the PRD. You see that Attack is one of the types of Standard Actions available others including: Activate Magic Item, Cast a Spell, Total Defense, and Use Special Ability. “
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There is no restriction in the feat description. But monster design is tricky business, simply because something is allowed doesn’t mean it should be used, But then again if you have player who annoys you with Munchkin-ness why not Munchkin you monsters.
And for Galnörag,
“Q: What type of action (standard, full, move, swift, free) does Vital Strike use?
A: (Jason Bulmahn) Vital Strike is an attack action, which is a type of standard action. Note: Attack Action means it is one of the types of action listed under Standard Actions defined on page 182 or Standard Actions List on the PRD. You see that Attack is one of the types of Standard Actions available others including: Activate Magic Item, Cast a Spell, Total Defense, and Use Special Ability. “
I guess what was missing, and I think I have figured out from the rules forum, but I can't find a book answer was "how many attacks does a monster make as a std action" and the answer seems to be 1, no matter how many attacks they normally get. So vital strike applies to which ever attack the monster chooses to make, but they still only get one. Makes me a fond of the mechanism in 4e, where multi headed creatures effectively have 1 initiative role per head, and that head may make one action, std, move or swift. It really boosts the CR of the creature, but makes the fight more dynamic.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Or are those feats unusable with natural weapons?
I don't see anything that rejects it. It doesn't say "manufactured weapon" does it?
I can't find a book answer was "how many attacks does a monster make as a std action" and the answer seems to be 1, no matter how many attacks they normally get.
There is no rule that suggest any answer other than 1. In 3.5 Hydra's had an odd "more than 1 attack in a standard" and that was explicitly removed from 3.p rules (since that was the ONLY way to get more than 1 attack as a standard in 3.5 games.)
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I can't find a book answer was "how many attacks does a monster make as a std action" and the answer seems to be 1, no matter how many attacks they normally get.There is no rule that suggest any answer other than 1. In 3.5 Hydra's had an odd "more than 1 attack in a standard" and that was explicitly removed from 3.p rules (since that was the ONLY way to get more than 1 attack as a standard in 3.5 games.)
I don't doubt that is the rule, but the only place that I've seen that clearly printed is in thread posts here and not in the Bestiary itself.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I don't doubt that is the rule, but the only place that I've seen that clearly printed is in thread posts here and not in the Bestiary itself.
I'm confused. What are you doubting?
Where in the Bestiary do you believe it suggests/hints/etc that you can make more than 1 attack in a standard ever?
Did a thread search, and this was the only one that came up, so I thought I would resurrect it for others who have questions like myself.
For a creature with multiple natural weapons (not iterative attacks) like for example a dragon, with the vital strike feats (like my friend the Adult Black Dragon
Do they only get to make 1 attack and apply the effects of Vital Strike, do they get to only make their primary attacks and apply the effects of vital stike, or do they get to apply it to all their attacks?
Vital strike is always a single attack and you give your other attacks up to do it.
