How good is Deadly Stroke?

[Ardenup]

Hi,

I've read and re-read the description of this feat. I make it to say that (besides doing double damage) if you hit the victim loses one point of con per round (no limit- or until dead) AND damage equal to HD unless a DC15 Healcheck or spell.

So a 20th level char takes 1con on the first round and loses 20 hp. Repeat.

Now if my understanding is correct this is VERY powerful?
Consider a straight fighter could take this at level 11. Now as a standard action he can inflict a bleeding wound equal to what 2/3 the average SA of an equal level Rogue (without needing a flank).

The only catch is if you want to do it unassited is you need to intimidate your opponent first- skill fcs: intimidate, plus an item giving a bonus to the skill means this will likely succeed (take Persuasive as well if you like, but probaly not nessecary)- intimidating a single opponent is a standard action (or if you use Dazzling Display you can effect everyone as a full round action)

any melee multiclass with 8 ftr level could also take it- fighter rogues in particular since shattered defences allows a rogue to SA with full attacks while the intimidation lasts.

Can you use it along with Vital Strike?

[ZappoHisbane]

Ardenup wrote:

I've read and re-read the description of this feat. I make it to say that (besides doing double damage) if you hit the victim loses one point of con per round (no limit- or until dead) AND damage equal to HD unless a DC15 Healcheck or spell.

So a 20th level char takes 1con on the first round and loses 20 hp. Repeat.

Actually, the effects of the CON bleed are only felt every other round. It's only 1 point per round, and ability damage takes effect for every 2 points.

Ardenup wrote:

Can you use it along with Vital Strike?

I don't *think* so, but until the muddy language of Vital Strike is cleaned up, who really knows? :)

Overall, yes, it's reasonably powerful. Anything that does CON damage is nasty, and CON bleed is even worse. I don't think it's overpowered though. There are plenty of poisons and creatures with venomous bites that can do similar damage around the same time as this feat becomes available. The CON bleed will weaken a foe over time, but chances are good that at that level they have a way of stopping it. One DC15 Heal check or any amount of healing will stop all bleeding.

[Ardenup]

Further, to clarity:
Does deadly stroke double ALL your damage? (including feats/enhancement etc)
Or just the weapons normal damage?

For example:
A 20th level Samurai-

Damage: Primary= +5, Shock, Menacing, Ghost touch, Keen, Frost Katana
D8+ 5(wpn enhance) +13(1.5 x str) +1d6 (shock) +1d6(frost)+ 18(PA)+4(Gtr Wpn Spl)= ave 55 per hit

Does Deadly Strokemake it: 110 or 130 if challenging?

Or (Scary Thought) 150 if challenging?

This would be freakin awesome for samurai since they are the only class besides fighter that can get it. Be great for 2 handed fighter archetypes with Overhand chop as well.

[Name Violation]

the first time my group saw the feat we thought " take a feat to have a Deadly Stroke? WTF?"

Ah, misinterpritations, so much fun

[Ardenup]

Any idea on what/how much damage is doubled though?

I'm not just taking this for the uber hit. Shatter Defenses is nice as well since it lowers AC and samurai SHOULD be sword masters.

[Ravingdork]

Ardenup wrote:

Any idea on what/how much damage is doubled though?

I'm not just taking this for the uber hit. Shatter Defenses is nice as well since it lowers AC and samurai SHOULD be sword masters.

Please note that the following applies whenever you multiply damage, regardless of what or why is causing it.

From the Combat Chapter, under the DAMAGE header wrote:

Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.

[Ardenup]

Ravingdork wrote:

From the Combat Chapter, under the DAMAGE header wrote:

Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.

So?

Damage: Primary= +5, Shock, Menacing, Ghost touch, Keen, Frost Katana
D8+ 5(wpn enhance) +13(1.5 x str) +1d6 (shock) +1d6(frost)+ 18(PA)+4(Gtr Wpn Spl)= ave 55 per hit

You'd Double the damage to 110?
My confusion is the last part about extra dice. You'd double the damage EXCEPT the extra dice from frost and shock

meaning 55-7 (combined ave from frost and shock) = 48 x2=96+7
Total damage for a Deadly Stroke is 103?

I can believe the challenge dice would double as well (since unlike SA the number is fixed)

So a Deadly Stroke on a Challenge target is 143 on a single hit. NICE!

Not sure if Paizo envisioned challenge combining with deadly stroke. It is alot for a single hit. Not overpowered I guess since
a. A cavalier spirited charge does more damage
b. The opponent needs to be flat footed or stunned.

These conditions are actually pretty easy for a Samurai to meet though
Because of his 3 bonus feats and fighter feat access.

He can take the Shatter Defences/Conrugan Smash trick to make opponents flat footed for multiple rounds.
He can take Stunning Assault or Stunning Crit (though in those 2 cases he may be better off just full attacking)

[Ravingdork]

Added dice do not multiply. Static numbers and base weapon damage do.

Does NOT multiply: +4d6, +5d4, +2d10.

DOES multiply: 1d8*, 2d6*, +1, +20, +45.

* Base weapon damage.

Pretty easy really.

Deadly Stroke and Vital Strike cannot be combined as they are both distinctly separate standard actions. A cavalier can use Deadly Stroke on a foe that he has Challenged. Since the extra damage from the challenge is a static number, rather than dice of damage, it DOES get multiplied by Deadly Stroke. Hardly overpowering as he could probably do more damage with a Challenge and a full attack.

[Caineach]

Deadly Stroke is useful on certain builds, but it is very difficult to get.

1. It requires Greater Weapon Focus, so you need at least 8 levels of Fighter.

2. They need to be suffering from 1 of a specific list of conditions. These are difficult to get without at least 1 round of prepwork, often 2. This prepwork is not always economical compared to a full attack. You can design characters who can come close to keeping up, but it is not easy.

3. It has 2 prerequisites that are not necessarily useful to the build. Deadly Stroke needs Shattered Defenses and Dazzling Display. Shattered defenses is a good way of making use of Deadly Stroke, but works into the 1+ rounds of prepwork. Dazzling Display requires intimidate, which then encourages you to focus much more on that part of the build. This can become resource intensive.

Overall, I do not think the feat is as bad as many feel it is. At some point I want to play a character that goes for it. But it does require you to specialize and build arround it, and then to know when to use it and when not to.

[Kaiyanwang]

Another way to use it is Crossbow Fighter and Double Crossbow.

[Quantum Steve]

Hmmm... By my calculations, a 17th Magus would qualify for this feat. Interesting.

[Ardenup]

Thing is I DID build a samurai to focus on it.
I like my meleers to have real high to hit numbers (does a lot for dpr being able to land iteratives)

So I took Gtr Wpn Fcs, Spl. But this only resulted in a to hit of 31.
I looked at the Conrugan Smash trick as a free action trigger for shatter defenses (denies dex so lowers AC), lowering Target AC. So he would hit more and discovered he actually qualified for deadly stroke.

So while I was only after a better chance of landing full attacks, I decided if the hit was enough might as well make it a focus.

I know a full attack is worthmore, but since Conrugan smash is a free intimidate it would be good vs mobile opponents who won't let me full attack them. (Our DM doesn't like to just give us full attacks, hence our melee's either need to be mobile heavy jitters- pounce barbarians, mobile fighters or take the whole Stepup chain- twf'rs.

[Muser]

Naturally the best class to work this into is the Battle Oracle. Greater Weapon Focus from a revelation and a high charisma to really stack on that Intimidate modifier. Pick up Intimidating Prowess and you are all set.

If Inquisitors could get Gtr Weapon Focus somehow, the commendation would obviously go to them. That class just has so many ways to benefit from intimidation and certain racial abilities.

[Kaiyanwang]

You are not forced to use Deadly Stroke with intimidation only.

Improved Invisibility or a Shadowdancer Dip can do the job too. In that case, DS would be an opening move, not a finishing one.

[Ardenup]

Good call, i was so focused on getting it through the build i forgot about magic.

[Kierato]

Not to mention improved feint.