the feats in the core PF book is all about the melee fighter and a little bit ranged
they just brushed off the arcane spell caster!
what the heck
I think spellcasters already have a ton of interesting things to do, and maybe they wanted the martial classes to have more variety and flexibility.
the feats in the core PF book is all about the melee fighter and a little bit ranged
they just brushed off the arcane spell caster!
what the heck
The caster's power is not in his feats it's in his spells and class abilities. Look I'd say greater invisibility as a swift action 20 rounds a day, permanent illusions, permanent summons, swift action teleports, etc. might be nice things that the arcane caster has in PF
interesting things to do?
interesting? besides taking away the exp burn when making suff...
oh mybe u mean all that fancy looking extra "weak crap" they added for a specialist wizard or the fancy looking stuff for the sorc.....
are the feats from 3.5 complete arcane and mage compatible?
are 3.5 feats in genarl compatible?
The caster's power is not in his feats it's in his spells and class abilities. Look I'd say greater invisibility as a swift action 20 rounds a day, permanent illusions, permanent summons, swift action teleports, etc. might be nice things that the arcane caster has in PFthe feats in the core PF book is all about the melee fighter and a little bit ranged
they just brushed off the arcane spell caster!
what the heck
please do explain to me
tell me the page number to look up all these swift actions you got going on
The caster's power is not in his feats it's in his spells and class abilities. Look I'd say greater invisibility as a swift action 20 rounds a day, permanent illusions, permanent summons, swift action teleports, etc. might be nice things that the arcane caster has in PFthe feats in the core PF book is all about the melee fighter and a little bit ranged
they just brushed off the arcane spell caster!
what the heckplease do explain to me
tell me the page number to look up all these swift actions you got going on
I don't have the book with me, greater invis is illusionist specialist's power, as is permanent illusions, swift action teleports is conjurer special power, it's in the wizard description.
Director of Brand Strategy
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interesting things to do?
interesting? besides taking away the exp burn when making suff...oh mybe u mean all that fancy looking extra "weak crap" they added for a specialist wizard or the fancy looking stuff for the sorc.....
are the feats from 3.5 complete arcane and mage compatible?
are 3.5 feats in genarl compatible?
In general feats from 3.5 are still compatible. Nothing from WotC's numerous statblocks is open under the OGL, so those weren't omitted out of spite for casters. In general, though, casters have versatility in that they can choose from literally hundreds of spells. Before the addition of all the melee and ranged combat feats you mention, non casters were pretty much one-trick ponies. Now there are a lot more options for customization for beaters as much as there has always been for blasters.
Yeah, all those feats are "compatible".
That means different things to different people. Can you use them in Pathfinder organized play? No. Can you use them in an upgraded 3.5 game where they were used without complications — or in a new Pathfinder campaign where the GM is okay with it? You sure can.
The basic assumptions of spellcasting have not changed one bit. Some of the specific spell text has changed, so you may want to check out the interactions between the new spells and the old feats. Concentration checks work a little differently, but most feats didn't tap into that mechanic.
I think the availability of all that material was one of the reasons we didn't see much feat-love for arcane casters in Pathfinder. It got to the point where arcane spellcasting was the only game in town, so in this edition they got mostly "flavor" changes, whereas the melee types got the power boost.
okok now is paizo going to be coming out with books like
the complete series with all the love for spell casters
becuse they should be more powerful then the other classes
Conjuration School;
Dimensional Steps (Sp): At 8th level, you can use this
ability to teleport up to 30 feet per wizard level per day
as a standard action. This teleportation must be used in
5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke
an attack of opportunity. You can bring other willing
creatures with you, but you must expend an equal
amount of distance for each additional creature brought
with you.
sorry no swift its standrd...looks fancy huh
Summoner’s Charm (Su): Whenever you cast a conjuration
(summoning) spell, increase the duration by a number
of rounds equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum 1).
At 20th level, you can change the duration of all summon
monster spells to permanent. You can have no more than
one summon monster spell made permanent in this way at
one time. If you designate another summon monster spell as
permanent, the previous spell immediately ends.
20th lvl!! lol who gets there nuff to make to useful and fun
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Director of Brand Strategy
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okok now is paizo going to be coming out with books like
the complete series with all the love for spell castersbecuse they should be more powerful then the other classes
Um, why should they be more powerful? I assume you never play anything but arcanists, then?
Paizo will continue to release new rules in their upcoming PFRPG sourcebooks, namely the Advanced Player's Guide, as well as setting specific stuff in the APs and Chronicles books. I doubt they'll make WotC's mistake, though, and flood the market with tons of unnecessary dreck several times a year and let power creep take over the game.
becuse[sic] they should be more powerful then the other classes
That is very much your opinion - many people would disagree with you. Balance is a hard thing. Pathfinder deserves credit for giving a damn.
S
Conjuration School;
Dimensional Steps (Sp): At 8th level, you can use this
ability to teleport up to 30 feet per wizard level per day
as a standard action. This teleportation must be used in
5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke
an attack of opportunity. You can bring other willing
creatures with you, but you must expend an equal
amount of distance for each additional creature brought
with you.sorry no swift its standrd...looks fancy huh
Summoner’s Charm (Su): Whenever you cast a conjuration
(summoning) spell, increase the duration by a number
of rounds equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum 1).
At 20th level, you can change the duration of all summon
monster spells to permanent. You can have no more than
one summon monster spell made permanent in this way at
one time. If you designate another summon monster spell as
permanent, the previous spell immediately ends.20th lvl!! lol who gets there nuff to make to useful and fun
Sorry I don't have the whole book memorized I'm fairly certain you've left out the rounds/day greater invisibilty as a swift action, and the dimension step is definately great enough to deserve as a standard action as it doesn't provoke and so you're pretty much immune to getting pinned and thus get to live. Diviners always go in the suprise round, there's a lot of perks for the spellcasters. You are just looking at it from the angle that it's going to suck. Well if that's how you're looking at it that's how it's going to be to you.
okok now is paizo going to be coming out with books like
the complete series with all the love for spell castersbecuse they should be more powerful then the other classes
Um, why should they be more powerful? I assume you never play anything but arcanists, then?
Paizo will continue to release new rules in their upcoming PFRPG sourcebooks, namely the Advanced Player's Guide, as well as setting specific stuff in the APs and Chronicles books. I doubt they'll make WotC's mistake, though, and flood the market with tons of unnecessary dreck several times a year and let power creep take over the game.
because the magic user all thorugh out time and in any genre of life
misic,books,movies,games has been the one to look up to|
Director of Brand Strategy
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Sorry I don't have the whole book memorized I'm fairly certain you've left out the rounds/day greater invisibilty as a swift action, and the dimension step is definately great enough to deserve as a standard action as it doesn't provoke and so you're pretty much immune to getting pinned and thus get to live. Diviners always go in the suprise round, there's a lot of perks for the spellcasters. You are just looking at it from the angle that it's going to suck. Well if that's how you're looking at it that's how it's going to be to you.
I think you're confusing the Illusionist school powers with the Fey bloodline, which grants Improved Invisibility for rounds per day, though I still don't think it's a swift action. In general, Sp and Su abilities (which is what schools, domains, and bloodlines grant) are going to be standards unless specifically noted otherwise in the descriptive text.
okok now is paizo going to be coming out with books like
the complete series with all the love for spell castersbecuse they should be more powerful then the other classes
Um, why should they be more powerful? I assume you never play anything but arcanists, then?
Paizo will continue to release new rules in their upcoming PFRPG sourcebooks, namely the Advanced Player's Guide, as well as setting specific stuff in the APs and Chronicles books. I doubt they'll make WotC's mistake, though, and flood the market with tons of unnecessary dreck several times a year and let power creep take over the game.
because the magic user all thorugh out time and in any genre of life
misic,books,movies,games has been the one to look up to
Plus it's backwards compatible you can still make your 3wiz/10 master specialist/7 initiate of the 7 fold veil and cast anti-magic field on your nemesis as a touch attack with no save and no sr. In high power games that's acceptable, it's just not part of the core rulebook.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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because the magic user all thorugh out time and in any genre of life
misic,books,movies,games has been the one to look up to
Well, you've convinced me. What a clear argument for rules balance.
I guess I'm done on this thread. I didn't bring my acid and/or fire today.
Best of luck.
Sorry I don't have the whole book memorized I'm fairly certain you've left out the rounds/day greater invisibilty as a swift action, and the dimension step is definately great enough to deserve as a standard action as it doesn't provoke and so you're pretty much immune to getting pinned and thus get to live. Diviners always go in the suprise round, there's a lot of perks for the spellcasters. You are just looking at it from the angle that it's going to suck. Well if that's how you're looking at it that's how it's going to be to you.
copy and paste from pdf
i c you point about the AoO and not getting pined
but not worth the specialization...thats just to me
im enjoying the topic and i hope noone is getting mad
Plus it's backwards compatible you can still make your 3wiz/10 master specialist/7 initiate of the 7 fold veil and cast anti-magic field on your nemesis as a touch attack with no save and no sr. In high power games that's acceptable, it's just not part of the core rulebook.
right
now that proper Bonked
Sorry I don't have the whole book memorized I'm fairly certain you've left out the rounds/day greater invisibilty as a swift action, and the dimension step is definately great enough to deserve as a standard action as it doesn't provoke and so you're pretty much immune to getting pinned and thus get to live. Diviners always go in the suprise round, there's a lot of perks for the spellcasters. You are just looking at it from the angle that it's going to suck. Well if that's how you're looking at it that's how it's going to be to you.
copy and paste from pdf
i c you point about the AoO and not getting pined
but not worth the specialization...thats just to meim enjoying the topic and i hope noone is getting mad
Nonononono it's not worth the specialization. It's ON TOP of the bonus spell for specialization. Personally, I think the diviner ability is the #1 thing around. Roll perception 1+2 = 3 crap, something bad's about to happen. Surprise round. Roll initiative anyways 10+10 = 20.. ok I go first. I ready an action to web wherever my first enemy comes out of hiding.
The illusionist power will be great if you want a blaster. Starting at 8th level you can just be invisible when you want to while blasting away. Incredible.
Casters are already more powerful than the other classes; just not to the point where they make non-casters obsolete around level 10.
i dont feel that they ever did
these are the spells per day at 10th lvlfrom o-5th
4 4 4 3 3 2
if you have an 18 int your still only getting a max of
3 5th lvl spells a day..not alot
sure hell have a few niffty little items to help em but
a 10th lvl wizard still needs help
Invisibility Field (Sp): At 8th level, you can make yourself
invisible as a swift action for a number of rounds per
day equal to your wizard level. These rounds do not
need to be consecutive. This otherwise functions as
greater invisibility.
okok ill give you that one..yeah that is big time huh
im just not a fan of the Illusion School
Casters are already more powerful than the other classes; just not to the point where they make non-casters obsolete around level 10.
i dont feel that they ever did
these are the spells per day at 10th lvl
from o-5th
4 4 4 3 3 2if you have an 18 int your still only getting a max of
3 5th lvl spells a day..not alot
sure hell have a few niffty little items to help em buta 10th lvl wizard still needs help
What more do you need. Level one grease/Ray of enfeeblement, level two glitter dust/web, level 3 stinking cloud/haste/slow, level 4 enervation/black tentacles(nice combo with ray of enfeeblement) and level 5 you may have a quicken once a day by then so cloudkill followed by quickened wall of stone otherwise you'll have to deal with a BBEG with no mooks if you can't quicken it. Wizards are awesome. Instead of fighting they just turn you into a frog, pickup your magic gear, and go on their merry way.
Invisibility Field (Sp): At 8th level, you can make yourself
invisible as a swift action for a number of rounds per
day equal to your wizard level. These rounds do not
need to be consecutive. This otherwise functions as
greater invisibility.okok ill give you that one..yeah that is big time huh
im just not a fan of the Illusion School
You don't have to prep a lot of illusion spells. Keep 1 silent image/color spray, one mirror image, one displacement, one shadow conjuration/phantasmal killer, and gain swift greater invis :) then prep what you want in your non-specialist slots
you can only quicken once a round
then if you do that forget bout your swift action
right? only one of these types of actions per round
this is fun but i have to go to work now
and the dimension step is definately great enough to deserve as a standard action as it doesn't provoke and so you're pretty much immune to getting pinned and thus get to live.
The MOVEMENT does not provoke AoO, the actual using of the spell like ability still does, and also requires a concentration check to use while threatened, etc.
Just wanted to point that out.
while I definately dont think arcane casters need a power boost, a few new feats would have been nice. I mean after all everyone got more feats, but the arcane casters didnt really get much to do with them.
you can only quicken once a round
then if you do that forget bout your swift actionright? only one of these types of actions per round
this is fun but i have to go to work now
Are you complaining about a free quickened improved invisibility? Yes you only get one swift action per turn.
while I definately dont think arcane casters need a power boost, a few new feats would have been nice. I mean after all everyone got more feats, but the arcane casters didnt really get much to do with them.
I don't know about that. I can't get feats fast enough if I'm playing a caster. I much prefer a wizard with feats at 1 3 5 7 9 and bonus feats at 1 5 and 10 rather than 1 3 6 9 and bonus feats. At the same level he has an extra, and he has been getting them one earlier from level 5 on. Extra spell penetration, craft, school focus goes a long way.
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and the dimension step is definately great enough to deserve as a standard action as it doesn't provoke and so you're pretty much immune to getting pinned and thus get to live.The MOVEMENT does not provoke AoO, the actual using of the spell like ability still does, and also requires a concentration check to use while threatened, etc.
Just wanted to point that out.
Quick quote from the Conjuration specialist powers:
Dimensional Steps (Sp): At 8th level, you can use this ability to teleport up to 30 feet per wizard level per day as a standard action. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
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For people who think any particular thing should be infinitely better be they elf or caster lovers or want to be napoleon, drizzt or god. We have a class for them..... 1st level commoner belonging to the great world power organisation 'the asylum'.
I disagree. Classes should be better at different power levels. Saying that a 20th level fighter should be equal to a 20th level wizard is amusing at best. That is like saying a 20th level wookie should be equal to a 20th level jedi. Sorry but I felt Luke was far superior to Chewbacca in Return of the Jedi.
For people who think any particular thing should be infinitely better be they elf or caster lovers or want to be napoleon, drizzt or god. We have a class for them..... 1st level commoner belonging to the great world power organisation 'the asylum'.I disagree. Classes should be better at different power levels. Saying that a 20th level fighter should be equal to a 20th level wizard is amusing at best. That is like saying a 20th level wookie should be equal to a 20th level jedi. Sorry but I felt Luke was far superior to Chewbacca in Return of the Jedi.
Ahh, see, but here's where your logic is flawed. There are plenty of things that Chewbacca can do that Luke, even as a full fledged Jedi, can't. I'll bet he's a better shot with a bowcaster. I'm absolutely certain that Luke couldn't have put C-3PO back together in the span of no more than a day or so, while stuck in a jail cell. Yes, I know that happened in ESB.
Different party members have should different roles to play, and they should all excel in their fields. Where people get upset is when the Wizard is able to be a one-man party because his spells can do pretty much everything he'd otherwise need the others for.
So far as I can tell this debate seems to break down into "logic" vs. "balance", inasmuch as logic can be applied to a roleplaying game where i shoot fire from my fingertips that is.
Logically I would agree that a caster, by and large, should be a far FAR FAR more powerful character, at higher levels at least. When you have the power of the gods at your fingertips (or library as it may be) very little should be able to stop you.
Unfortunately this wouldn't be a whole lot of fun, for the caster OR his friends.
Balance is finding the point at which people still want to play casters because they are fun and useful, preferably equally across disparate levels and styles of play, while not obviating the need to have fighters, healers and the sundry other archetypes there are in this wonderful game we play.
I happen to favor the balanced approach rather than trying to think too hard about what gandalf/raistlin/zed/moiraine would/could do in the right situation. I think 3.P has gone a lot further than people are like to give credit for to close the gap between the magical and the martial.
However, that being said, when it comes to specific class balance I think fighter and paladin are perhaps too powerful compared to barbarian or ranger, classes that are largely playing the same role. I still fear that a well equipped and played fighter or paladin potentially make a caster obsolete, where I don't fear the reverse.
Mind explaining for us how you think a Fighter or Pali could make casters obsolete? I sure as hell don't see it lol, but I may be missing something.
What makes casters necessary at high levels? A paladin or fighter is better at doing damage, in melee and with the right feats/magic items at range. The right selection of magic items, perhaps custom made, can replace all the powerful buffs a wizard can give the party.
At high levels, aggainst appropriate CR opponents or groups of opponents, assuming the above and a party with wisely crafted utility use items, there's nothing left for a caster to do that can't be done by someone else.
Not that I can think of anyway. And not to say it still isn't nice, but a wizard or sorcerer (and to a lesser extent a cleric) can by and large be replaced by magic items which in the worst case can only be used by someone willing to sink points into UMD.
Magic items of high level spells are
A: not cost effective
B: not versatile (you buy the item and you get those very few options with it)
C: Easily resisted (Saving throws are generally the minimum possible for that given spell)
Trust me, the high level game isn't even about damage. Sorcerers and Wizards aren't awesome because of damage (which the other characters are SUPPOSED to do better, especially when that's just about all they have to contribute) but because they win the fights.
Save or suck, save or lose, buffs, battlefield controls.
These are the things that make casters rule the battlefield.
Believe me, I understand all these things. I play utility casters, debuffers, buffers, and its fun and powerful.
However we were arguing NECESSITY not cost-effectiveness. Though be fair, I wasn't talking about single use items but things we all take for granted like boots of speed, wings of flying, or goggles of darkvision or see invis which can make even the most stacked encounter a breeze.
In the end, if you can do enough damage to kill something quickly you have bested that challenge.
