Hello, boards
I have a player wanting to use The Quintessential Druid books (from Mongoose). In these books, he found the Swift Claw variant allowing him to stack his monk damage with his wild shaped natural attacks (at the expense of Resist Nature Lure, if I recall correctly).
While I can consider this alright, we have a discussion about the amount of damage this incurs : is the additional damage relative to the wild shaped animal's size ?
His character is currently monk 1/druid 6 and, if we agree on the previous question, he can add 1d8 (Large Monk) to his animal shape's damage. More if he succeeds in getting a Monk's Robe, 2 druid levels (Huge), a level in War Shaper, and/or Superior Unarmed Strike (feat, +4 monk levels for damage).
What are your thoughts on this ?
Well depends on the type of game you want to run.If you allow Monks robe, and superior unarmoed strike (and while you did not mention it Improved natral attack) is it really that much of a problem?
(...)
All in all I don't think swift claw is that big of a deal, but it all depends on the type of game you want to run.
You are right, I forgot about Improved Natural Attack. The thing I'm wary about is this:
Huge animal: damage 2d8 (i.e. Elephant)Huge monk level 1+5+4 with INA : damage 4d8
Warshaper's Morphic Weapons gives +1 size bonus to one attack, applies to both since they stack ? If the answer is yes, I'm looking at a beast that can deal 9d8 damage per attack, not counting Strength bonuses, other feats, and other magical items. Sure, it's in a few levels, but still...
Well depends on the type of game you want to run.If you allow Monks robe, and superior unarmoed strike (and while you did not mention it Improved natral attack) is it really that much of a problem?
(...)
All in all I don't think swift claw is that big of a deal, but it all depends on the type of game you want to run.
You are right, I forgot about Improved Natural Attack. The thing I'm wary about is this:
Huge animal: damage 2d8 (i.e. Elephant)
Huge monk level 1+5+4 with INA : damage 4d8
Warshaper's Morphic Weapons gives +1 size bonus to one attack, applies to both since they stack ? If the answer is yes, I'm looking at a beast that can deal 9d8 damage per attack, not counting Strength bonuses, other feats, and other magical items. Sure, it's in a few levels, but still...
Ok 9th level monk does 1d10 at medium, 2d8 at large, 3d8 at Huge, 4d8 at Gargantuan, 6d8 at Collosal.
Yes, the size modifiers for morphic weapon and improved natural attack stacks.
My point is that IF he wants to taek advanage fo sizing he can do it in a LOT more efficent ways than this and in so doing still get level 20 monk unarmed damage by level 11, with size increases (if he pushes for it) to Collosal still doing 12d8 per attack.
Druid is NOT the optimal way of doing this.
My suggestion is to decide if you wish to restrict to pathfinder core only, in which case these worries go away, or open it up to 3.0, 3.5 backward compatible spells in which case the druid stunt here is not the biggest issue you will have to worry about.
wildshaper's morphic weapons
wildshaper smurfic weapons
Hmmm....
Thanks for your input.
Another point of discussion between us is the possible use of Pounce ability (gotten through the Barbarian's Lion Totem Alternate Class Feature, for instance) with Whirldwind Attack.
Since WA forbids additional attacks when used and Pounce (which kind of grants additional attacks) is needed before using WA... do you think they stack?
On the cheesy side, that would mean a beast able to charge multiple foes in a single round, especially with reach.
As for Druid/Monk being subpar compared to full Monk, I think the ability to heal and wild shape are very important for this player.
On a side note, his first idea was a build based on full-Warshaper to get Multimorph. Do you know a feat/ability/ACF able to do that without "losing" 5 levels in a class not advancing wild shape and spellcasting ?
Whirlwind attack doesn't stack with pounce, because both require full round actions. If the guy invested the feats for WW attack though, I would personally allow him to use that as a pounce if he wished, substituting one form of full attack for a normal replacement of it.
Pounce: When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
Whirlwind Attack: When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent.
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
Up to the last sentence, the abilities stack: Pounce gives full attack at the end of a charge, and that full attack can be used for a WA. The last sentence, though, is ambiguous: does it mean that you can't use Pounce when you do a WA even though you had to use it to activate WA ?
Besides, having Pounce for a creature with only one attack seems quite useless if you can't do things like WA.
(Though honestly that barbarian substitution is extremely lame lol, seriously 1 level of barbarian for the key to all melee combatant's wet dream? I agree the ability should be accessible, but if your going to make it that accessible I'd say a feat is a better choice lol)
If the character wasn't already short with feats, I'd have helped him find a feat for it (although those feats have restrictions: Lion's Pounce, for instance, requires the character to expend a use of Wild Shape). Add that to d12 HD, +1 BAB, +2 Fort, and a (limited but still useful) Rage ability, that level isn't completely lost.
Thanks for pointing out the full attack action bit, I had completely missed that for whirlwind attack, yes you can whirlwind at the end of a pounce.I wasn't calling it a lost level, just rather stupid that it requires dipping to get when it's so important to melee classes. If they were going to introduce that ability to any class (barb included) it should have been as a feat. "Pounce: You may take a full attack action at the end of a charge.
OK I now understand why you called it "lame" earlier. And I agree about it being better as a feat. After all, the "grab" and "trip" abilities have their own feat chains, why not Pounce? Why not all the monsters' abilities? (assuming logical prerequisites and description for the ability - I wouldn't have a halfling fighter Trampling kobolds, for instance; although Overrunning them is still an option)
However, the interaction between Pathfinder RPG and D&D 3.0-3.5 "splat books" is sometimes sketchy (qv. threads on Master of Many Forms). They might have seen Pounce and decided it was too broken to allow for everyone and their pet.
Back on the player's character build, I think I'll let him continue as he sees fit, adjusting the monsters if the encounters are too easy (I mean... charge as an elephant/giant croc/whatever Huge at full BAB+2 for 9d8+Str*1.5 on each monster in 10' reach... some encounters will be too easy).
If it damages the group dynamics, though, I'll have a serious chat with him...
We had a test game wednesday, playing a custom high-level adventure. Dave wanted to play a high-level version of his build, and he trounced the opposition. Since he dumped Cha, he had difficulties with Diplomacy, obviously. And the occasional undead was more in the Cleric's range. But any other challenge he met well above the other PCs' abilities.
He agreed to limit the added damage from Swift Claw to the base damage from his monk levels only. The Swift Claw wording from Mongoose is quite short, and we house-ruled it this way : since the bonuses from Warshaper and size come from his animal shape, he won't be able to use them to improve his human shape-related abilities.
Improved Natural Attack was ruled as a bonus to one type of physical attack WHEN USED. He wanted to keep the feat, so we decided to apply it to the GORE attack he used most. It changes the 2d8 from his elephant shape to 3d8.
He still uses Superior Unarmed Strike, though, which allows him to add 2d8 to his hits. While not as impressive as his previous 9 die, 5d8 is still correct for a melee character of his level (the barbarian and rogue now have a better chance to do more damage, especially with their magic weapons) - and he still has an Animal Companion and his spells, too.
Here is hope that my previous posts didn't encourage others to create more broken builds.
My point is that IF he wants to taek advanage fo sizing he can do it in a LOT more efficent ways than this and in so doing still get level 20 monk unarmed damage by level 11, with size increases (if he pushes for it) to Collosal still doing 12d8 per attack.
Druid is NOT the optimal way of doing this.
I agree, but it gives the character more self-healing options, and more versatility (a.k.a "spells" :-)