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Given that the ISG, the UN, Bush and Rumsfeld all agree that Iraq had no WMD program, beyond a few isolated left over shells from the Iraq-Iran war, I do find it amusing that you're trying to change history here.
Not trying to change history. The meme is that no WMDs were found, not that there was no WMD program. The argument made is that Bush lied about the existance of WMDs. Not to mention that in 1998, Iraq declared tht it had destoryed all WMDs in it's possession. If anyone is trying to change history it is you, by moving the goal posts of the anti-Iraq War movement.
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You are quibbling on semantics, especially when every single body in the world, even Bush, Rumsfeld and probably Cheney admit they were wrong and there were no WMD in Iraq. This was clearly resolved back in 2004, when the ISG reported to Congress that Saddam Hussein did not possess stockpiles of illicit weapons at the time of the U.S. invasion in March 2003 and had not begun any program to produce them.
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You are quibbling on semantics, especially when every single body in the world, even Bush, Rumsfeld and probably Cheney admit they were wrong and there were no WMD in Iraq. This was clearly resolved back in 2004, when the ISG reported to Congress that Saddam Hussein did not possess stockpiles of illicit weapons at the time of the U.S. invasion in March 2003 and had not begun any program to produce them.
Loks like you are back to the meme. Let me clear this up for you, it is not arguing semantics to say that there is a difference between sying thre was no active program to continue the development of WMDs and the existance of WMDs in Iraq. I am willing to concede that Sadaam Hussien had stopped the active production of weapons of mass production in Iraq. However, it is not trying to changehistory, as you earlier accused me of to point out that weapns of mass destruction were in existance in Iraq at the time of the Second Gulf War.
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I know it sounds tinfoil hatlike, but I believe there were WMD's, and for some reason it's still top secret, so there's no point in arguing it cos there's no way to prove it.
For some reason, the fact that UK invented the computer during WW II was a top secret for 40 years post the war. Why that remained a secret, I have no idea.
Julia Childs was a secret agent or something.
Crazy or true....
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Is there some kind of mental block that prevents certain people from realising that, when the ISG reported that Iraq had neither stockpiles of WMD, or WMD programs, that means that didn't have WMD, nor did they have WMD programs. This isn't some wacky meme dreamed up by the internet.
According to CNN, MSNBC, USA Tody, The U.K. Guardian, the London Times, etc. there were WMDs in Iraq. They were left over from the Iran/Iraq War sure, but Iraq still had them in their arsenal. They may not have been building or stockpiling more, but they kept the ones that they could hide from the inspectors and they still had them in their arsenal. They used them to gas the Kurds after the First Gulf War. If anyone is suffering a mental block and is unable to recognize the truth it is you. Not manufacturing is not the same as not having. How much clearer can I put it? It may not have been dreamed up by the internet, which is an inanimate object which can not dream or imagine anyway, but it certainly is wacky because is does the very thing you initally accused me of, rewrites history.
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Let me quote you from your own source.
The massive report does say, however, that Iraq worked hard to cheat on United Nations-imposed sanctions and retain the capability to resume production of weapons of mass destruction at some time in the future.
"[Saddam] wanted to end sanctions while preserving the capability to reconstitute his weapons of mass destruction when sanctions were lifted," a summary of the report says.
Duelfer, testifying at a Senate hearing on the report, said his account attempts to describe Iraq's weapons programs "not in isolation but in the context of the aims and objectives of the regime that created and used them."
""While the ISG has not found stockpiles of WMD, the ISG and other coalition elements have developed a body of fact that shows that Saddam Hussein had, first, the strategic intention to continue to pursue WMD capabilities; two, created ambiguity about his WMD capabilities that he used to extract concessions in the international world of disclosure and discussion and negotiation."
Some other sources as well:
Danish and Icelandic troops have uncovered a cache of 36 shells buried in the Iraqi desert, and preliminary tests showed they contained a liquid blister agent, the Danish military said Saturday.
Why bury them if they didn't exist?
The recent discovery of two chemical artillery shells in Iraq has raised concerns among weapons inspectors that other shells may turn up in the hands of insurgents battling American troops, the head of the U.S. search team said Wednesday.
"We need to investigate whether there are more where that came from, wherever that is, and we need to make certain that they're not finding their way into anti-coalition or terrorist hands," said Charles Duelfer, head of the CIA-led Iraq Survey Group, in an interview via satellite from Baghdad.
Charlss Duelfer is the man who wrote the report that you claim says there were no WMDs in Iraq. Clearly he was at least aware of these two and was worried that more were out there.
Polish troops recently discovered more than a dozen warheads containing mustard or sarin gas in Iraq, US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said in a radio interview released.
Rumsfeld said Polish Defense Minister Jerzy Szmajdzinski told him about the find when they met earlier this week at a NATO summit in Istanbul.
DFunny how Donald Rumsfeld is also among those you claim admit that there were no WMDs in Iraq. Oh those pesky facts, they keep getting in the way of the reality we wish we lived in.
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Firstly, it's well known that reality has a liberal bias.
I am really curious now. The ISG said, quite clearly, in it's final report, that there were no signs of WMD in Iraq. 36 Shells buried in the desert do not qualify, I'm afraid. They certainly weren't the reason we went to war. I don't think we were within 45 minutes of destruction from a bunch of decade old shells buried in the freaking desert.
The ISG says they didn't have any. Bush says it. That's the key one for me. Do you honestly think that if they found any proper amount of WMD in Iraq that Bush would stay quiet about it? The man staked his entire reputation in history on Iraq having WMD.
As an aside, you know those 36 Shells you keep going on about? Well, unfortunately, it turns out the preliminary tests were wrong, and that infact they didn't have any chemical agents within. Here's the story, from everyone's favourite fair and balanced political organisation.
That actually happened a fair bit. There would be an early find, often by troops who were looking for the worst case scenario. This would be reported on. However, once the experts came in, they invariably discovered that either a) The initial tests were wrong or b) These were weapons that Iraq had declared and were waiting to be destroyed by UN weapons inspectors.
Firstly, it's well known that reality has a liberal bias.
Thanks for the good laugh Uzzy. I needed that. ;)
...A giant, robotic praying mantis! =DI could get behind that.
I CAN'T GET BEHIND THAT!
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Nutty? I'm surprised another member of the boards hasn't mentioned this.
** spoiler omitted **
For a while there I thought this guy was a Mormon... there are so many groups that'd say something like that.
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I wonder what other crazy conspiracy theories we can find that people seriously believe in?Conspiracy theories that I don't believe in:
The moon landing was a fake.
There was a second shooter on the grassy knoll.
Obama was born in Kenya.
The Bush administration masterminded 9/11.
HIV was invented by the US government to kill blacks and/or gays.Now add "The US government invented swine flu to cull the population" to that list.
BTW, I'm well aware that someone is going to dive in and argue against one of my positions above. What can I say, I'm the most non-conspiracy theorist out there.
Grassy gnoll? So we're talking what, some sort of titanic gnoll that went to sleep and was covered in grass? And two people were on it, shooting? Gah!
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Is there some kind of mental block that prevents certain people from realising that, when the ISG reported that Iraq had neither stockpiles of WMD, or WMD programs, that means that didn't have WMD, nor did they have WMD programs. This isn't some wacky meme dreamed up by the internet.
They did have programs, as is evidenced by the nerve gassing of thousands of their own people.
It's in the news.|
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Is there some kind of mental block that prevents certain people from realising that, when the ISG reported that Iraq had neither stockpiles of WMD, or WMD programs, that means that didn't have WMD, nor did they have WMD programs. This isn't some wacky meme dreamed up by the internet.They did have programs, as is evidenced by the nerve gassing of thousands of their own people.
It's in the news.
Back in 1988, yes. Last time I checked, the US was still allied with Iraq then. Besides, those programs had been shut down or dismantled by UN Weapons Inspectors after the Gulf War.
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Firstly, it's well known that reality has a liberal bias.
I am really curious now. The ISG said, quite clearly, in it's final report, that there were no signs of WMD in Iraq. 36 Shells buried in the desert do not qualify, I'm afraid. They certainly weren't the reason we went to war. I don't think we were within 45 minutes of destruction from a bunch of decade old shells buried in the freaking desert.
The ISG says they didn't have any. Bush says it. That's the key one for me. Do you honestly think that if they found any proper amount of WMD in Iraq that Bush would stay quiet about it? The man staked his entire reputation in history on Iraq having WMD.
As an aside, you know those 36 Shells you keep going on about? Well, unfortunately, it turns out the preliminary tests were wrong, and that infact they didn't have any chemical agents within. Here's the story, from everyone's favourite fair and balanced political organisation.
That actually happened a fair bit. There would be an early find, often by troops who were looking for the worst case scenario. This would be reported on. However, once the experts came in, they invariably discovered that either a) The initial tests were wrong or b) These were weapons that Iraq had declared and were waiting to be destroyed by UN weapons inspectors.
How about 500 tons of yellow cake uranium? You can't make lemon cake out of that. You can make bombs though.
It's a good thing we took Hussein out. All the rest is semantics.I bet it'll come out in 20 years that there were wmd's, and it'll come out that they snuck a bunch in to Syria and Iran to hide, just like they hid their good planes during the first gulf war in Iran.
Of course, I can't really prove any of this; I don't have Top Secret clearance or a need to know.
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evil lizard-men live on the reverse side of the surface world with an interior sun overhead.Is there a contest to make the most outlandish claims and have people believe in them?
There are no lizard-men in the world.
The mole people hunted them to extinction long ago, riding them down on their dinosaur mounts.
Dinosaur mounts that shoot lightning out their nostrils.
People have believed in Agartha for decades. The Nazis apparently sent some (pseudo)scientists to Greenland so that they could take pictures of the British Fleet on the otherside since the Earth curves back on itself near the "holes in the poles" and they could take the pictures from above. They literally pointed their cameras up to see the other side.
I wonder, can you can mistake a seagull for a cruiser?
It seems like Nazis are the stereotypical crazy pseudo-scientists of choice since WWII.
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Back in 1988, yes. Last time I checked, the US was still allied with Iraq then. Besides, those programs had been shut down or dismantled by UN Weapons Inspectors after the Gulf War.Is there some kind of mental block that prevents certain people from realising that, when the ISG reported that Iraq had neither stockpiles of WMD, or WMD programs, that means that didn't have WMD, nor did they have WMD programs. This isn't some wacky meme dreamed up by the internet.They did have programs, as is evidenced by the nerve gassing of thousands of their own people.
It's in the news.
So, you don't think they were going to reimplement their WMD programs at the first opportunity?
Ah the spooky music brings back memories of the X-Files.....Well this explanantion is one I cant acept because I find it doesnt answer the question fully. Its the case where scientists due to lack of complete evidence just try to downplay their failure to understand a situation. personally I would prefer if the scientists came out and said the causes are as of yet unknown.
What part of the question is not answered to provoke your rejection of the explanation?
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For a while there I thought this guy was a Mormon... there are so many groups that'd say something like that.Nutty? I'm surprised another member of the boards hasn't mentioned this.
** spoiler omitted **
Nope Farakhan is not a Mormon, and Mormons as a group wouldn't say it. I should know, I am one. You will find the ocassional nutter in our midst, but as evidence has shown you will find nutters among gamers as well.
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How about 500 tons of yellow cake uranium? You can't make lemon cake out of that. You can make bombs though.
It's a good thing we took Hussein out. All the rest is semantics.I bet it'll come out in 20 years that there were wmd's, and it'll come out that they snuck a bunch in to Syria and Iran to hide, just like they hid their good planes during the first gulf war in Iran.
Of course, I can't really prove any of this; I don't have Top Secret clearance or a need to know.
Multiple things here.
Firstly, the 500 tons of yellowcake uranium is an idea that comes from forged documents. Such a transaction between Iraq and Niger never took place. As the IAEA said..
Based on thorough analysis, the IAEA has concluded with the concurrence of outside experts that these documents which formed the basis for the report of recent uranium transaction between Iraq and Niger are in fact not authentic. We have therefore concluded that these specific allegations are unfounded.
Secondly, the idea of Iraq hiding anything in Iran is utterly insane. Have you ever heard of the Iran-Iraq War that raged for 8 long bloody years? They hated each other. They despised each other. Iran wouldn't let Iraq land planes inside it's border, they'd shoot them down!
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Firstly, it's well known that reality has a liberal bias.
Thanks for the good laugh Uzzy. I needed that. ;)
Add that to the crazy conspiracy list. Oh and Uzzy, the originator of that statement was Stephen Colbert, well know political satirist and comedian. Maybe I should start adding the political wisdom of Jeff Foxworthy to the debate.
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Add that to the crazy conspiracy list. Oh and Uzzy, the originator of that statement was Stephen Colbert, well know political satirist and comedian. Maybe I should start adding the political wisdom of Jeff Foxworthy to the debate.Firstly, it's well known that reality has a liberal bias.
Thanks for the good laugh Uzzy. I needed that. ;)
Oh, I already knew that. It's a joke.
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Firstly, it's well known that reality has a liberal bias.
I am really curious now. The ISG said, quite clearly, in it's final report, that there were no signs of WMD in Iraq. 36 Shells buried in the desert do not qualify, I'm afraid. They certainly weren't the reason we went to war. I don't think we were within 45 minutes of destruction from a bunch of decade old shells buried in the freaking desert.
The ISG says they didn't have any. Bush says it. That's the key one for me. Do you honestly think that if they found any proper amount of WMD in Iraq that Bush would stay quiet about it? The man staked his entire reputation in history on Iraq having WMD.
So you deny any weapons of mass destruction existed in Iraq? Don't give the tap dance about they were alread declared or mistested either. Do you deny that there were ANY WMDs in Iraq or not? Also do you deny that your precious ISG report said that given the chance, Iraq would restart it's WMD program? If you answer no to either question, you have just undermined your whole argument. By the way your openning quote was made by Stephen Colbert as part of a comedy show. Stop taking everything so seriously.
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How about 500 tons of yellow cake uranium? You can't make lemon cake out of that. You can make bombs though.
It's a good thing we took Hussein out. All the rest is semantics.I bet it'll come out in 20 years that there were wmd's, and it'll come out that they snuck a bunch in to Syria and Iran to hide, just like they hid their good planes during the first gulf war in Iran.
Of course, I can't really prove any of this; I don't have Top Secret clearance or a need to know.
Multiple things here.
Firstly, the 500 tons of yellowcake uranium is an idea that comes from forged documents. Such a transaction between Iraq and Niger never took place. As the IAEA said..
Based on thorough analysis, the IAEA has concluded with the concurrence of outside experts that these documents which formed the basis for the report of recent uranium transaction between Iraq and Niger are in fact not authentic. We have therefore concluded that these specific allegations are unfounded.Secondly, the idea of Iraq hiding anything in Iran is utterly insane. Have you ever heard of the Iran-Iraq War that raged for 8 long bloody years? They hated each other. They despised each other. Iran wouldn't let Iraq land planes inside it's border, they'd shoot them down!
Uh,...."the enemy of my enemy is also my friend."
Iraq hid it's damn air force in Iran during the original Gulf War.What's a little sarin gas?
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Interesting. The Iraqi Air Force hiding it's planes in Iran still requires some extraordinary evidence, given just how much Saddam hated the Ayatollahs. Evidence you've failed to provide so far.
The Yellowcake thing is interesting though. While it's clear Iraq didn't try to buy any from Niger (something used by us Brits to justify the war), it seems they had some Yellowcake. Still, it needs a very careful enriching process to turn into weapon grade uranium, and Iraq certainly didn't have anything approaching a nuclear enriching programme.
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So you deny any weapons of mass destruction existed in Iraq? Don't give the tap dance about they were alread declared or mistested either. Do you deny that there were ANY WMDs in Iraq or not? Also do you deny that your precious ISG report said that given the chance, Iraq would restart it's WMD program? If you answer no to either question, you have just undermined your whole argument. By the way your openning quote was made by Stephen Colbert as part of a comedy show. Stop taking everything so seriously.
I lighten things up with a little quip, and you say I'm taking things too seriously? Heh.
Now, if the weapons were tested and found not to be biological or chemical weapons, then that would seem to indicate that they aren't WMD, right? The only other weapons there were ones already declared by Iraq and in line to be destroyed. So no, the US forces did not find any WMD in Iraq, beyond those already declared! No hidden WMD. No hidden Biological, Chemical or Nuclear programmes.
Iraqi WMD was no threat to anyone. The fact that the ISG suggested that Iraq might try to restart it's programmes if sanctions were lifted is true, but irrelevant, as that wasn't the rationale for war, was it? The rationale for war was Iraq's Clear and Present Danger from it's WMD and WMD programmes, neither of which it possessed.
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Interesting. The Iraqi Air Force hiding it's planes in Iran still requires some extraordinary evidence, given just how much Saddam hated the Ayatollahs. Evidence you've failed to provide so far.
The Yellowcake thing is interesting though. While it's clear Iraq didn't try to buy any from Niger (something used by us Brits to justify the war), it seems they had some Yellowcake. Still, it needs a very careful enriching process to turn into weapon grade uranium, and Iraq certainly didn't have anything approaching a nuclear enriching programme.
Aww, Jesus; it was on the news 18 years ago.
So, they were going to make lemon cake out the uranium then....|
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*sigh*
from Wikipedia....
"The first week of the air war saw a few Iraqi sorties, but these did little damage, and 38 Iraqi MiGs were shot down by Coalition planes. Soon after, the Iraqi Air Force began fleeing to Iran, with 115 to 140 aircraft flown there.[44] This mass exodus of Iraqi aircraft took coalition forces by surprise as the Coalition had been expecting them to flee to Jordan, a nation friendly to Iraq, rather than Iran, a long-time enemy. As a purpose of the war was to weaken Iraq militarily, the coalition had placed aircraft over western Iraq to try to stop any retreat into Jordan. This meant they were unable to react before most of the Iraqi aircraft had made it "safely" to Iranian airbases. The coalition eventually established a virtual "wall" of F-15 Eagle, F-14 Tomcat fighters and F-16 Fighting Falcons on the Iraq-Iran border (called MIGCAP), thereby stopping the exodus of fleeing Iraqi fighters. Iran has never returned the aircraft to Iraq and did not allow the aircrews to be released until years later. However, most Iraqi planes remained in Iraq. They were devastated by Coalition aircraft throughout the war."
So, what's a little sarin gas?
Man you are just itching for a fight tonight warwoof!
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I don't know where it is, but this physicist working on that particle accelerator, the one that's supposed to make tiny black holes, said something about he thinks people are coming from the future to mess them up starting it going cos maybe it's gonna blow the f*%$ out of everything.
I can't find the source though; maybe it's just crazy talk.
I don't know where it is, but this physicist working on that particle accelerator, the one that's supposed to make tiny black holes, said something about he thinks people are coming from the future to mess them up starting it going cos maybe it's gonna blow the f~## out of everything.
I can't find the source though; maybe it's just crazy talk.
You are right. I have heard the same thing from inside sources.
My question is, are they good aliens or bad aliens?
Cable TV?
If I had the money for it I would open a gym with a boxing ring and and MMA cage. I would rent it to people who want to take their internet arguments into the physical world. Then I would sell the tapes of their fights for obscene profits.
Why don't you solicit investors? Promise them repayment from the operating cash flows of the fight's obscene profits, plus a percentage.
This is how most business's get started.
>Here is a paper< where some dude wants to use the Large Hadron Collider to create warp drive - for reals!
Quote:
"This paper presents a design of a laboratory experiment that could test the suitability of relativistic gravity for
propulsion of spacecraft to relativistic speeds. Within the weak-field approximation of general relativity, exact
solutions have been derived for the gravitational field of a mass moving with arbitrary velocity and acceleration
(Felber, 2005a). The solutions indicated that a mass having a constant velocity greater than 3 1/ 2 times the speed of
light c gravitationally repels other masses at rest within a narrow cone ... "
I want a little black hole lava lamp or something.
Wow....what a great paper shredder idea. Just watch out for the event horizon.
I'm thinking we put them at the bottom of toilets.
I don't know where it is, but this physicist working on that particle accelerator, the one that's supposed to make tiny black holes, said something about he thinks people are coming from the future to mess them up starting it going cos maybe it's gonna blow the f@#& out of everything.
I can't find the source though; maybe it's just crazy talk.
>Here is the paper< where real scientists worry about people coming back from the future to stop their work.
F%##ing awesome!!!
"It was speculated that all the accelerators producing large amounts of Higgs particles such as the Superconducting Super Collider (SSC) would mean that the initial conditions must have been arranged so as not to allow these accelerators to work."
Note section 3.1: "3.1 The importance of competition between times on determining the fate of all times"
And, again: "We might recognize an effect from the future if some accelerator that is already planned is then stopped by Congress."
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I don't know where it is, but this physicist working on that particle accelerator, the one that's supposed to make tiny black holes, said something about he thinks people are coming from the future to mess them up starting it going cos maybe it's gonna blow the f@#& out of everything.
I can't find the source though; maybe it's just crazy talk.>Here is the paper< where real scientists worry about people coming back from the future to stop their work.
f*~#ing awesome!!!
"It was speculated that all the accelerators producing large amounts of Higgs particles such as the Superconducting Super Collider (SSC) would mean that the initial conditions must have been arranged so as not to allow these accelerators to work."
Note section 3.1: "3.1 The importance of competition between times on determining the fate of all times"
And, again: "We might recognize an effect from the future if some accelerator that is already planned is then stopped by Congress."
Wow...I wanna read that over. It looks like a damn player handout from Call of C'thulhu.