I just bought my copy of Tome of Secrets, and when I was going through
the new classes, the swashbuckler got my attention with his Find the
mark ability.
While it is clear that keen weapons and improved critical don't stack
anymore, Find the mark is a different matter. Because it doesn't double
the threat range, but adds the increment by one (or two), I'm not sure
do you add them before or after the keen/improved critical.
For an example we have a rapier, with 18-20/X2 threat range. Then we
have +1 keen rapier with 15-20/X2 threat range. If this +1 keen rapier
would be used by a lvl 16 swashbuckler, would the threat range be
11-20/X2 (Add the points from find the mark first, and then double it)
or would it be 13-20/X2 (double first, and then add the points from find
the mark)?
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I just bought my copy of Tome of Secrets, and when I was going through
the new classes, the swashbuckler got my attention with his Find the
mark ability.While it is clear that keen weapons and improved critical don't stack
anymore, Find the mark is a different matter. Because it doesn't double
the threat range, but adds the increment by one (or two), I'm not sure
do you add them before or after the keen/improved critical.For an example we have a rapier, with 18-20/X2 threat range. Then we
have +1 keen rapier with 15-20/X2 threat range. If this +1 keen rapier
would be used by a lvl 16 swashbuckler, would the threat range be
11-20/X2 (Add the points from find the mark first, and then double it)
or would it be 13-20/X2 (double first, and then add the points from find
the mark)?
Personally, I'd add them after. Double the base threat range, then add on Find the Mark. It makes more sense that Find the Mark is a static bonus rather than doing double duty for a Keen weapon.
Personally, I'd add them after. Double the base threat range, then add on Find the Mark. It makes more sense that Find the Mark is a static bonus rather than doing double duty for a Keen weapon.
I would agree with Paul here. It is a "knowledge" of a bit better way, to double that with improved critical (which is also a "knowledge" in my opinion), would seem improper.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Personally, I'd add them after. Double the base threat range, then add on Find the Mark. It makes more sense that Find the Mark is a static bonus rather than doing double duty for a Keen weapon.
If I allowed it at all, it would be a static bonus applied last. I don't think I would allow it, as it is likely more powerful than it should be.
If I allowed it at all, it would be a static bonus applied last. I don't think I would allow it, as it is likely more powerful than it should be.
It's kinda like the point for whole swashbuckler class to have a ridiculously high threat range. Reminds me of some dual-wielding keen kukri rogues in 3.5e.
Of course if you don't like it, it's okay to remove the whole class from the game, but modifying it that way would just make it too weak. After all, rapier does a whopping 2d6+x points of damage on a critical, where x is probably close to 20. And a fighter does the same damage without critical...
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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It's kinda like the point for whole swashbuckler class to have a ridiculously high threat range.
The whole class sounds badly balanced. Allowing high threat range coupled with a high multiplier (like x4) makes your damage go up much faster than can ever be balanced.
If you limit them to increasing threat while maintaining x2 multiplier or increasing multiplier while maintaining 20x threat is balanced. Increasing both is the same as increasing one twice as much (mathematically.)
Swashbucklers only use light swords, which have only X2 critical multiplyier
Remember the rule that a double double is not quadruple, it's merely triple? If not, see the Multiplying Damage rule on page 179.
Yeah, not really applicable, but it is relevant. You never double the double - you always work off of the base value. The rule says so.
If you add the +2, then double it, you've really doubled the +2, which is sort of like a double double, if you get my point (no pun intended).
Maybe a better way to say it is this: since the rules say you shouldn't double the double, I don't think you should double the plus either.
At the very least, while that isn't explicitly RAW, I would definitely consider that to be RAI.
Remember the rule that a double double is not quadruple, it's merely triple? If not, see the Multiplying Damage rule on page 179.
Yeah, not really applicable, but it is relevant. You never double the double - you always work off of the base value. The rule says so.
If you add the +2, then double it, you've really doubled the +2, which is sort of like a double double, if you get my point (no pun intended).
Maybe a better way to say it is this: since the rules say you shouldn't double the double, I don't think you should double the plus either.
At the very least, while that isn't explicitly RAW, I would definitely consider that to be RAI.
Yes, I've known the "double*double=triple"-rule as long as I've played D&D. The Swashbuckler ability just wasn't doubling, or at least it wasn't worded that way. But I think it's now clear for everyone, that you don't double anything else but the base threat range. And then you add other modifiers if applicable.