Ok,
Need a question answered, and I'm thinking it may require something from the Paizo Posse.
So, a minotaur is CR 4, with 6 hit dice. That's equivelant to a Level 4 character. So, we advance him until he's CR 7. Now he qualifies for the Leadership feat. Let's assume he's got a decent CHA, so he's got a Leadership Score of 13. This net's him 10 1st level followers, and 1 2nd level followers.
Now, the problem with this is... none of his fellow lizardfolk in his tribe qualify as followers. They are all Level 4 at a minimum, unless we de-age them and he leads a bunch of hatchlings around with a pre-adolescent. So... how does Leadership work for Monsters and Monstrous classes? It seems like on the face of it, you'd need a leadership score of at least 17 just to have one lizardfolk follower if you are a lizardfolk chieftan.
Or am I completely missing something in the rules?
Leadership would be for those followers that never question him. As chieftain it's assumed he has met some "role playing" requirements that cause the other lizardfolk to follow him. He doesn't always get them, and if they die there is no guarantee he'll get more.
Just like with a PC the current tribe follows him for RP reasons... and the because DM said so.
Leadership would be for those followers that never question him. As chieftain it's assumed he has met some "role playing" requirements that cause the other lizardfolk to follow him. He doesn't always get them, and if they die there is no guarantee he'll get more.
Just like with a PC the current tribe follows him for RP reasons... and the because DM said so.
And that's perfectly reasonable. But, the leadership feat specifically has rules for 'He was a bad leader' or 'he was a good leader'. And it still doesn't answer 'how does he have followers from the feat'.
Not being snarky, just saying within the rules the feat only makes sense for PC's, it's almost like there would have to be a second Leadership feat for non-PC's.
Leadership would be for those followers that never question him. As chieftain it's assumed he has met some "role playing" requirements that cause the other lizardfolk to follow him. He doesn't always get them, and if they die there is no guarantee he'll get more.
Just like with a PC the current tribe follows him for RP reasons... and the because DM said so.
And that's perfectly reasonable. But, the leadership feat specifically has rules for 'He was a bad leader' or 'he was a good leader'. And it still doesn't answer 'how does he have followers from the feat'.
Not being snarky, just saying within the rules the feat only makes sense for PC's, it's almost like there would have to be a second Leadership feat for non-PC's.
Not snarky at all, perfectly reasonable.
My response at this point is simply: He doesn't have lizardfolk followers. They're human slaves, maybe some swamp mephit type things, or other low CR monsters.
Leadership doesn't actually state you get to choose what followers you get, or that they will be a certain thing for you so maybe his followers are simply that pack of shocker lizards he raised from eggs.
However we do have something I want to clear up: You started talking about Minotaurs at the start of the post, and switched to Lizardfolk half way through... is there a reason for this or a simple mix up... because that might answer your question some.
A personal note on leadership, that is Houserule territory:
Personally I really don't see the Leadership feat being for NPCs. I also don't really allow it on the general basis I have enough going on already without having a squad of whatever behind each player. So when I do allow it I generally give it as a bonus feat as a reward for outstanding role playing (i.e. Hey you rescued the town, now the town guard give you a bodyguard, and you can get a squad of townsfolk to help you with whatever you need... bonus feat leadership -- and stat me up some NPCs for your followers... what would you be looking for in a bodyguard *these are still NPCs, I'll let the player tell me what he's looking for in his Cohort, but what's available is up to me -- not to screw the player but for verisimilitude, and clarity of what the Cohort is... he's not just a trapfinding device this way).
Not snarky at all, perfectly reasonable.My response at this point is simply: He doesn't have lizardfolk followers. They're human slaves, maybe some swamp mephit type things, or other low CR monsters.
Leadership doesn't actually state you get to choose what followers you get, or that they will be a certain thing for you so maybe his followers are simply that pack of shocker lizards he raised from eggs.
However we do have something I want to clear up: You started talking about Minotaurs at the start of the post, and switched to Lizardfolk half way through... is there a reason for this or a simple mix up... because that might answer your question some.
Sorry, it's for an NPC Lizardfolk I'm making for my game. He runs a village of lizardfolk. I was using the minotaur because he's a CR4 and makes a better example. The Lizardfolk is a 2, so not quite as bad as the Minotaur, but still has a similar problem. Just forgot I'd used the Minotaur to draw out the larger example.
A personal note on leadership, that is Houserule territory:Personally I really don't see the Leadership feat being for NPCs. I also don't really allow it on the general basis I have enough going on already without having a squad of whatever behind each player. So when I do allow it I generally give it as a bonus feat as a reward for outstanding role playing (i.e. Hey you rescued the town, now the town guard give you a bodyguard, and you can get a squad of townsfolk to help you with whatever you need... bonus feat leadership -- and stat me up some NPCs for...
That's pretty much what happens for me too, I only allow the leadership feat if either A) It's required by the plot, or B) they do something to earn it in game.
Yeah, Leadership isn't really intended for NPC use. The lizardman chief rules the tribe because he can beat the snot out of the other lizardmen, or because he's friends with lizardmen who can beat the snot out of the other lizardmen. No feat needed.
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10 1st level followers, and 1 2nd level followers.
Now, the problem with this is... none of his fellow lizardfolk in his tribe qualify as followers.
Or am I completely missing something in the rules?
Lizardfolk are CR 1, so he could have 10x Lizardfolk and 1x Lizardfolk Cleric (CR 2.)
Assuming everything said here is accurate, such as all the lizardfolk being equivalent of level 4, then you have one of three options.
1. Don't use the leadership feat. I am quite certain this feat was never meant to cover every type of leadership. For example, just what level does a king have to be to be the leader of a kingdom of 500,000 people, at least some of whom are high level (Elminster and Drizzt and everyone else have to live somewhere after all)? I doubt all kings are level 200+, so clearly they lead in ways that are not reliant of the feat. Likewise, your lizardfolk leader might lead because his papa was the previous chief, or because he has a flaming sword and all the other lizards think that makes him a god, or maybe just because nobody else in the village can beat him in one-on-one combat. No feat required.
2. Use the feat exactly as raw, but he'll have to use something else, not from the level 4 tribal lizardfolk, to be his followers. Give him 10 gnolls and a bugbear. Or whatever. Yeah, I know, that's weird. But hey, sometimes the RAW is weird.
3. Tweak it per the monster advancement rules. Two CR1 monsters are equivalent to a CR2, and two CR2 are equivalent to a CR4. Since he can have 10 CR1 and 1 CR2 follower, mathematically, that is equivalent to 3 CR4 followers. Yeah, it's not RAW, and it's probably not even perfectly accurate to say that 3 CR4 is equal or equivalent to 10 CR1 + 1 CR2, but it sure is close and it won't be as weird as having the leader run around with gnolls and bugbears in a lizardfolk village.
Thanks to all the people that answered. Basically, what I've come to the decision on is that, just like in 3.5, Leadership is a busted mechanic that really doesn't work for what it advertises itself as. I think instead of leadership it's more like, 'Get a Posse'. :)
I may have to work out some rules to actual leadership, maybe a 'king' template, and a 'warchief' or 'bandit leader' template, to handle this. Thanks...
Assuming everything said here is accurate, such as all the lizardfolk being equivalent of level 4I'm not quite sure where the Lizardfolk are level 4 theory came, but they are CR 1 in the Bestiary.
I started out with Minotaurs (CR 4) as an example case, but posted later about Lizardfolk due to those being the ones I was actually working with at the time I wrote the post. :(
Sorry for the confusion.