Am I reading this correctly. No penalties for two weapon attacks? So all extra attacks are at full BAB?
You still suffer standard penalties for two-weapon fighting, except that shield bashes no longer suffer the -2 attack penalty (for light shields) or -4 attack penalty (for heavy shields). Your other weapon still has these penalties.
So -2 primary / +0 shield??
Am I reading this correctly. No penalties for two weapon attacks? So all extra attacks are at full BAB?
Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Shield Slam, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield's enhancement bonus to attacks and damage rolls made with the shield as if it was a weapon enhancement bonus.
So if you primary with your shield and off-hand a light weapon:
Shield: +11/+6/+1 Off-hand: +9 (and +4 if you have ITWF)
If you primary with your shield and off-hand a one-handed weapon:
Shield: +11/+6/+1 Off-hand: +7 (and +2 if you have ITWF)
If you primary a weapon and off-hand a light shield:
Primary: +9/+4/-1 Shield: +11 (and +6 if you have ITWF)
If you primary a weapon and off-hand a heavy shield:
Primary: +7/+2/-3 Shield: +11 (and +6 if you have ITWF)
(Someone will be along to double check my math shortly =)
Just to resurrect this thread (didn't want to start a new one)...:
1) If a character has ITWF, does that mean if you are using the shield as an offhand (i.e. not the primary), you'd get 2 extra attacks with it, first at your full BAB, and then full BAB -5? (Obviously the intention is to have a -5 penalty on the second "free" attack regardless of what SM says about removing the penalty)
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2) If you have TWF, ITWF, SM, that would mean (assuming BAB of 12)..
If you had a Light Shield:
+10/+5/+0(Main), and +12/+7(Shield)
If you had a +2 Light Shield it would become:
+10/+5/+0(Main), and +14/+9(Shield)
If you had a +2 Light Shield w/ +3 Spikes (as magically enhanced weapon):
+10/+5/+0(Main), and +17/+12(Shield)
3) If you go for Grater TWF does this add an additional attack at -5 on each of the shield bashes?
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4) If you want to start using the shield itself as the primary weapon (i.e. using a Heavy Shield with spikes or whatever), and wield an offhand light weapon, does this switch around to reflect the above table as:
+12/+7/+2(Main Hand Shield), and +10/+5(Offhand)
If you had a +2 Light Shield it would become:
+14/+9/+4(Main Hand Shield), and +10/+5(Offhand)
If you had a +2 Light Shield w/ +3 Spikes (as magically enhanced weapon):
+17/+12/+7(Main Hand Shield), and +10/+5(Offhand)
5) If the above holds true, could you then got for Greater TWF and add an additional attack at +0 for the offhand in each of those instances?
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Just to resurrect this thread (didn't want to start a new one)...:
1) If a character has ITWF, does that mean if you are using the shield as an offhand (i.e. not the primary), you'd get 2 extra attacks with it, first at your full BAB, and then full BAB -5? (Obviously the intention is to have a -5 penalty on the second "free" attack regardless of what SM says about removing the penalty)
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2) If you have TWF, ITWF, SM, that would mean (assuming BAB of 12)..
If you had a Light Shield:
+10/+5/+0(Main), and +12/+7(Shield)
If you had a +2 Light Shield it would become:
+10/+5/+0(Main), and +14/+9(Shield)
If you had a +2 Light Shield w/ +3 Spikes (as magically enhanced weapon):
+10/+5/+0(Main), and +17/+12(Shield)3) If you go for Grater TWF does this add an additional attack at -5 on each of the shield bashes?
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4) If you want to start using the shield itself as the primary weapon (i.e. using a Heavy Shield with spikes or whatever), and wield an offhand light weapon, does this switch around to reflect the above table as:
+12/+7/+2(Main Hand Shield), and +10/+5(Offhand)
If you had a +2 Light Shield it would become:
+14/+9/+4(Main Hand Shield), and +10/+5(Offhand)
If you had a +2 Light Shield w/ +3 Spikes (as magically enhanced weapon):
+17/+12/+7(Main Hand Shield), and +10/+5(Offhand)5) If the above holds true, could you then got for Greater TWF and add an additional attack at +0 for the offhand in each of those instances?
The only thing incorrect here is you can't stack the +2 bonus from the shield with the +3 bonus from the shield spikes, they're both enhancement bonuses so you would use the highest one. The point here is that adding enhancement bonuses to the shield itself is much cheaper than to the spikes as a weapon, so you can save a bunch of money by enhancing the shield only. Or, you could make the shield a +3 shield, and then put +1 keen flaming burst on the spikes, and you'd end up treating the shield spikes as +3 keen flaming burst.
Excellent. I was pretty sure they wouldn't stack, but wanted clarification.
It does seem that spending the feats can certainly pay off, although it's rather a narrow specialisation. On any character I would play, I'd have to see it complemented with a decent couple of 2H feats to offset the lower damage-per-hit for those instances when AC isn't saving you, and you need big numbers *pronto*.
It does seem detrimental to use a Heavy shield in the Offhand, although there could be a benefit if it was a Main Hand weapon and a light o/h weapon, but I think that's simply chasing a small potential damage with too much of a miss chance for those times you want to use your weapon as a primary and still bash away.
Thanks very much for the input to all those who had contributed before me, and thanks to Cartmanbeck for addressing my question.
The point here is that adding enhancement bonuses to the shield itself is much cheaper than to the spikes as a weapon, so you can save a bunch of money by enhancing the shield only. Or, you could make the shield a +3 shield, and then put +1 keen flaming burst on the spikes, and you'd end up treating the shield spikes as +3 keen flaming burst.
I'm not at all sure this is the case.
If you enchant the shield as armor, you get a +1 enhancement bonus to shield AC, not to hit/dmg. This follows the armor enchanting pricing. (1k +1, 4k +2, 9k +3...)
If you enchant the shield as a weapon, you get the +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage, but not to AC. This follows the weapon enchanting pricing. (2k +1, 8k +2, 18k +3...)
The shield spikes transform the weapon, they're not really separate. Once the spikes are applied, you have a spiked shield. The spiked shield can be enchanted as armor or as a weapon just like a normal shield. I don't think you can have, for example, a +1 flaming spikes +1 frost shield that functions as a +1 flaming frost weapon (Effectively +3) for the price of two +2 weapons (cheaper than a +3).
Generally speaking I always got the impression the shield spikes were basically treated as a desperate item attached to the shield. Which is why they are enchanted desperately.
So you can have your +4 bashing shield with +1 keen flaming spikes.
You either attack with one or the other.
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The point here is that adding enhancement bonuses to the shield itself is much cheaper than to the spikes as a weapon, so you can save a bunch of money by enhancing the shield only. Or, you could make the shield a +3 shield, and then put +1 keen flaming burst on the spikes, and you'd end up treating the shield spikes as +3 keen flaming burst.I'm not at all sure this is the case.
If you enchant the shield as armor, you get a +1 enhancement bonus to shield AC, not to hit/dmg. This follows the armor enchanting pricing. (1k +1, 4k +2, 9k +3...)
If you enchant the shield as a weapon, you get the +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage, but not to AC. This follows the weapon enchanting pricing. (2k +1, 8k +2, 18k +3...)
The shield spikes transform the weapon, they're not really separate. Once the spikes are applied, you have a spiked shield. The spiked shield can be enchanted as armor or as a weapon just like a normal shield. I don't think you can have, for example, a +1 flaming spikes +1 frost shield that functions as a +1 flaming frost weapon (Effectively +3) for the price of two +2 weapons (cheaper than a +3).
You'd normally be correct, but the Shield Master feat lets you treat the armor enhancement bonus of a shield as a weapon enhancement bonus, which is what this whole thread is about. :-)
Edit: You are definitely correct about the second part though, you coudn't enchant the shield as a weapon and the shield spikes as a seperate weapon, shield spikes are part of the shield. What I've been suggeting, however, is to enchant the shield with, say, a +3 armor enhancement bonus, and then enchant it as a weapon with +1 flaming shock freezing keen. Overall, this would give you a +3 flaming shocking freezing keen weapon if you have the Shield master feat, which is MUCH cheaper than trying to get all of those abilities using weapon pricing.
Generally speaking I always got the impression the shield spikes were basically treated as a desperate item attached to the shield. Which is why they are enchanted desperately.
So you can have your +4 bashing shield with +1 keen flaming spikes.
You either attack with one or the other.
I was under the impression that the spikes convert the shield into another item:
Shield Spikes: "These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right."
That sounds like if you have a heavy shield, and pay 10 gp for spikes, you now have a heavy spiked shield.
Though it looks like James Jacobs runs them separate, from this thread though that's mostly focused on the bashing (armor) enchantment, my guess is he wouldn't let the weapon enchants stack either.
IE: A +1 Flaming Shield with +1 Frost Spikes could either bash for +1 flaming, or spike for +1 frost, not both at the same time.
Also, I totally overlooked the whole shield master enhancement bonus thing, doh.
can you fight with the shield 2handed?
Heavy and Light shields, yes. But remember, a light shield is a light weapon (see Table: Weapons), so you won't get 1.5xStr on damage.
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It just occured to me that shield master doesn't specify which penalties on attack rolls it negates. So one could use Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Fighting Defensively and similar stuff without taking any penalty on attack rolls.
That's obviously not intended, but as long as it isn't errataed, that would probably make the shield the best weapon in the game once you have Shield Master.
At first I thought I'd say there is no way that a DM's wouldn't bat that one down, but re-reading it seems pretty clear that a shield appears to be the ultimate weapon in combat!
Wow, talk about a loophole!
Man, this thread just keeps coming back.
Still, Shield Master makes a two shield fighter worth it.
(It is the thread that keeps on coming back from the dead!)
Theoretically, you could have a Heavy shield in your main hand, and a light shield in the off hand, and plow into bad guys like you were wielding two giant cymbals.