Ok,
I kind of like how Paizo did monster races in play, but wanted to see if everyone thought it would work with templates too. I didn't put this in rules because I'm discussing non-Pathfinder templates (Woodling from MM3 to be exact).
So, Woodling Template (page 197, MM3) states it's a +3 ECL, but only a +2 CR. This makes sense to me, as the ECL's in Pathfinder are lowered by one (effectively). I think even WoTC knew back then that ECL was borked.
So, working from the CR=2 for the Template, my wife's catfolk druid should have started as a level 3 character (1 class level, +2 for Template). She can't start as CR2 because she needs at least one Hit Die.
Then, per rules on 313 Bestiary, she would wait until level 3 + 3 = 6 to gain an extra level (between 5 and 6). So, when all the other characters are level 6, she'll have 5 class levels (Druid) and a Monster CR of 1.
She can't ever get rid of that CR of 1, so she'll be one class level behind everyone else from that point forward. So, with everyone else at level 9, she's at level 8.
Does that sound right?
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She can't ever get rid of that CR of 1, so she'll be one class level behind everyone else from that point forward. So, with everyone else at level 9, she's at level 8.
Does that sound right?
I had to read page 313 several times, and I still am not sure what it means.
Assuming you are using Catfolk from RotW?
p 94 has Rogue 3 Catfolk CR 4, so that is +1 CR.
Add +2 CR for Woodling.
You have +3 CR total.
At 4th level game you would have Catfolk Woodling with 1 class level.
At 6th level game you would have Catfolk Woodling with 4 class levels (+2 CR.)
Half round down is 1, so she is stuck with +2 CR forever.
I think this is right, but what I don't know is below:
1) Do these racial "class levels" provide HD, HP, Saves, Skills? Or are they like LA in the old?
2) Do you take HD, HP, Saves, Skills etc from racial HD lock stock and barrel but "consider" yourself to only have CR Levels? Or do you rebuild as if you had CR "class levels" in the race?
I had to read page 313 several times, and I still am not sure what it means.Assuming you are using Catfolk from RotW?
p 94 has Rogue 3 Catfolk CR 4, so that is +1 CR.
Add +2 CR for Woodling.
You have +3 CR total.At 4th level game you would have Catfolk Woodling with 1 class level.
At 6th level game you would have Catfolk Woodling with 4 class levels (+2 CR.)Half round down is 1, so she is stuck with +2 CR forever.
I think this is right, but what I don't know is below:
1) Do these racial "class levels" provide HD, HP, Saves, Skills? Or are they like LA in the old?
2) Do you take HD, HP, Saves, Skills etc from racial HD lock stock and barrel but "consider" yourself to only have CR Levels? Or do you rebuild as if you had CR "class levels" in the race?
Ah, Sorry. No, I'm using the Catfolk I put up on the PathfinderDB site, I don't have any Paizo modules, just the Pathfinder Core and Bestiary, I almost never use modules, I usually do homebrew campaigns. So the catfolk I'm using have no CR except their class level.
However, with that, it sounds like we both read those rules the same way. With the template she'd start a 3rd level game with 1 class level and at 6th have 5 class levels.
As to your question, the way I read it is :
1) You ignore HD, HP, Saves, Skills from Racial Hit Dice. You only use the CR. So, if someone had a CR 4 monster, and that CR 4 monster had 3 racial hit dice, they'd keep all the benefits of the 3 racial hit dice. They'd start as a Level 4 character in a level 4 game (they have hit points, so no need for class level). At level 7, they'd reduce their CR by 1, and gain an extra class level and be CR 3, CL 4 (still level 7). Then again at 10 they'd reduce a CR and gain a CL and be CR 2, CL 8 (Still level 10), and then from that point on gain class levels normally. So, it seems like Racial Hit Dice are no longer considered equivalent to a Class Level (which I personally agree with, racial hit dice aren't as effective as a class level).
2) I think you get the racial hit dice, but as you level up, while they still add into your totals, they aren't counted as 'levels' anymore, just all rolled up into your CR levels, and they don't correspond at a 1-to-1 ratio.
Actually, the more I think about it, the more I like it. It's more complicated than the old ECL, but it's an elegant way to handle it as far as progression goes.
I haven´t gotten a copy of the bestiary yet (but god i hope i get to soon), but my question is if there are monsters with racial hit dice (instead of only CR adjustment) in the bestiary or will those calculations done above only be necesary when using 3.5 material?
It seems like, just looking, each race either has a character stat block, or a CR, or a stat block with a CR adjust (Noble Drow, although it looks like those got their CR Adjust left off. hahaha).
Example : Minotaurs have 6 Racial Hit Dice, and a CR 4. They are specifically listed in the 313 example text as starting off as a 4th level character, and losing 2 CR levels (one at 7, and one at 10). So their 6 racial hit dice are only worth 2 class levels at higher levels.
does that mean that when going from lvl 6 to level 7 (and 9 to 10 as well) they gain technically 2 class levels? (one from normal progression and one from the CR replacement)
Yep, half-way between levels (which is what I was going to do anyway, I guess great minds think alike). So, half-way between levels they gain another class level.
Wow, this sure seems like a headache compared to the old LA system.
Hopefully it'll be more clear once I'm actually able to get my mitts on the book (buying it locally the day it comes out, have it reserved infact)
Yeah, you're getting it second hand through me, so that's where a lot of the headache comes from. :)
It's actually relatively elegant, just takes a bit of calculation up front, but all the math is up front, once you're done with that, you just note down what levels they gain 'bonus' class levels, and leave it there.
Just noticed that I can actually now play a minotaur wizard and get 9th level spells eventually hehehe. Don´t know why I would do that but the fact hat I can is just nice.
LOL
I hate everyone who got to see Bestiary already.
*Waits impatiently for the PDF to get released.
I hate everyone who got to see Bestiary already.
*Waits impatiently for the PDF to get released.
Sorry. Here's a cookie while you wait.
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if there are monsters with racial hit dice (instead of only CR adjustment) in the bestiary?
Most of them. Very few have CR adjustments. Most have CR (like 4) and more than that in racial HD.
Noble Drow, although it looks like those got their CR Adjust left off. hahaha).
Yea, in another thread Jason said Noble had a +1 CR. So expect Errata to put it in since it isn't now.
Wow, this sure seems like a headache compared to the old LA system.
Yes, it does seem so. But it also seems to be more versatile. Depending on the intended way to handle the original stats (keep or throw away) it may be overpowered or underpowered. I won't know until I play one (or have someone play one in my games.)
1) You ignore HD, HP, Saves, Skills from Racial Hit Dice.
2) I think you get the racial hit dice, but as you level up, while they still add into your totals, they aren't counted as 'levels' anymore
Those seem like incompatible statements. I really hope we get an official answer soon, because if it is like #2, I worry that is way too much power handed to a player of non-standard PC's.
Those seem like incompatible statements. I really hope we get an official answer soon, because if it is like #2, I worry that is way too much power handed to a player of non-standard PC's.1) You ignore HD, HP, Saves, Skills from Racial Hit Dice.
2) I think you get the racial hit dice, but as you level up, while they still add into your totals, they aren't counted as 'levels' anymore
Sorry, I didn't state that clearly.
By 1, I meant you don't count any of that towards character level. As to it being way too much power... at lower levels I agree completely, but by the time you get to level 12 or 15, those class levels are way more powerful than the original monster hit dice (which is stated in the book).
Look at it like this. A CR 4 Minotaur has 6d8 hit dice, a little bit of a boost to his BAB and some boosts to saves, but generally nothing else, and some decent stats. No class abilities, nothing. That's a lot to give up for those hit dice. At 4th level, that's a decent trade off. At 15th, being an 11th level character running around with 15th levels isn't worth the 6d8 hit dice and stat boosts.
So per the rules, he'd start at 4th level with 6d8 and no class abilities. Then, at 7th level, he'd become a CR 3 + CL 4 creature. Still 7th level, but with 4 class levels running around with 7th level characters. At 10th level, he'd again adjust down. Then he'd be a 10th level character with 8 class levels.
Can I asusme then that most monsters conceivably playable as characters do have entries on how to use them as such. I´m talking about ability score modifiers and racial traits. (that on top of the afore mentioned mandatory racial his dice)
Anything that's capable of being started off as a normal non-adjusted character. So, Drow, Kobolds, Duerger, Goblins Aasimer, Teiflings, Orc, and Svirfneblin.
Only ones with a CR that have stats are Noble Drow. Not sure why they didn't do it for Hobgoblins, Bugbears, or others with relatively low CR's, but they decided the only race with a CR to explicitely provide player character stats for is Noble Drow. You'll have to do the -10/-11 adjustment and figure out racial modifiers for anything else.
Those seem like incompatible statements. I really hope we get an official answer soon, because if it is like #2, I worry that is way too much power handed to a player of non-standard PC's.
Racial hit die tend to suck, badly. Counting them as a full level usually meant that anything with racial HD was unplayably bad in 3.5. Presumably the LA (or whatever they call the equivalent) will factor the HD in, just not on a 1 to 1 basis.
Racial hit die tend to suck, badly. Counting them as a full level usually meant that anything with racial HD was unplayably bad in 3.5. Presumably the LA (or whatever they call the equivalent) will factor the HD in, just not on a 1 to 1 basis.
Those seem like incompatible statements. I really hope we get an official answer soon, because if it is like #2, I worry that is way too much power handed to a player of non-standard PC's.
Yes, there are rules in the book for calculating CR, and hit dice go into the calculation. They just don't count at 1 per 1.
Just noticed that I can actually now play a minotaur wizard and get 9th level spells eventually hehehe. Don´t know why I would do that but the fact hat I can is just nice.
My favorite character ever was Anna Kornakova the albino minotaur mage who got turned into a mantis swordsmaster (homebrew game)
Ok, i've been as patient as i could... and i'm sorry for potentially hijacking a very awesome thread, but....
... lycanthropes! are they pretty much as they were in 3.5? Or are the LA and HD less restrictive to a player?
Always wanted to play one... never could get past the restrictions.
Lycanthropes are in the bestiary, but they only deal with rats and wolves in the book. You can play one, but they are different than 3.5. No regeneration, but they do get DR 10/Silver in Hybrid/Animal form (born), or 5/Silver (afflicted).
Rules say player characters should use born, not afflicted. They get the following racial mods : +2 Wis, -2 Cha in all forms, and +2 STR and +2 CON in Hybrid/Animal form. The animal/hybrid form they take the higher of their human or base animal stat instead.
Born Lycanthropes are a CR +1 template, so easily playable.
Now how am i gonna get any more work done today... can do naught but think on how to finally build out my lycan.
Thanks for the speedy response!
No problem. They get some other stuff, but you can deffinately use them in most games. Not even all that unbalanced now either. Jason and his posse redid how to build them so you base most of it off the base creature (Animal). So, theoretically you could have a were-rhino, or a were-bear or a were-psuedodragon (that's a scary thought). :)
Okay, my Gm has one more question (though why he won't ask himself is beyond me... messageboard agoraphobe!).
Half-dragons, what is their new CR?
+2.
Okay, my Gm has one more question (though why he won't ask himself is beyond me... messageboard agoraphobe!).
Half-dragons, what is their new CR?
Half-Celestial : HD 5 or less, as base creature + 1; HD 6–10, as base creature + 2; HD 11 or more, as base creature + 3
Half-Dragon : +2 CRHalf-Fiend : HD 4 or less, as base creature + 1; HD 5 to 10, as base creature + 2; HD 11 or more, as base creature + 3
Not sure if I like the CR based off hit-dice, makes it confusing. I guess PC's would use the +1 and never be able to buy it off.
On another note, the half-dragons now get fly at 2x base land speed, good maneuverability, regardless of size. So those gnome half-dragon (Silver) monks are going to be heck on wings. ;)
Not sure if I like the CR based off hit-dice, makes it confusing. I guess PC's would use the +1 and never be able to buy it off.
The celestial, fiendish, and half- versions thereof did CR bumps based on HD in 3.5 as well.
The celestial, fiendish, and half- versions thereof did CR bumps based on HD in 3.5 as well.Not sure if I like the CR based off hit-dice, makes it confusing. I guess PC's would use the +1 and never be able to buy it off.
Yep, didn't like it then either. :) Was hoping they would fix that. :)
Ah, interesting note on half-dragons. They no longer get increased Hit Die.
Type: Creature type changes to dragon. Do not recalculate HD, BAB, or saves.
Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +8, Con +6, Int +2, Cha +2.
With those stat mods, and being a CR+2... I'm starting to see why the Noble Drow was a +1 CR.
and if I understood correctly that CR will become +1 at lvl 6. is that correct?
That's the way I understand it from reading the rules. You start at the minimum level, and every 3 levels, you reduce the CR level by 1, and boost the class level by 1 (halfway between levels). You do this a number of times equal to CR/2 (Round down). So CR 2 = 1 reduction of CR, CR 3 = 1 reduction of CR, CR 4 = 2 reductions, etc.
There was a very very important question I was going to ask, but the board went down for a second and now I can't remember it.
Oh yeah, every 3 class levels, or based off the class level+CR?
There was a very very important question I was going to ask, but the board went down for a second and now I can't remember it.
Oh yeah, every 3 class levels, or based off the class level+CR?
Every 3 class levels after they are given an effective class level based on CR.
For example :
Minotaur starts as a CR 4, so equivalent to CL 4. So, he'd start adventuring as a level 4 character. Then, when he got to level 5, he'd get one Class Level (CR 4/CL 1). At 6, he'd gain a second class level (CR 4/CL 2). At 6.5 though, he'd gain a third class level and lose a CR level (CR 3/CL 3). At 7 he'd gain another Class Level (CR 3/CL 4). This would continue through level 8 and 9 (CR 3/CL 5, CR 3/CL 6). Then, at 9.5, he'd gain another Class Level (CR 2/CL 7) and finally at 10 he'd gain another class level (CR 2/CL 8). From that point forward, he'd just gain CL's normal (basically, he'd always be level CL + 2). So at level 11 he'd be CR 2/CL 9, and at 20 he'd be CR 2/CL 18.
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... lycanthropes! are they pretty much as they were in 3.5? Or are the LA and HD less restrictive to a player
Other than the suggestion to the DM to turn them into a DM controlled NPC whenever they are in Hybrid or Were form? That is a big blow to any PC were-*.
I guess PC's would use the +1 and never be able to buy it off.
I read it that as your gain levels (in class levels) your CR "cost" of the Half-* goes up.
... lycanthropes! are they pretty much as they were in 3.5? Or are the LA and HD less restrictive to a playerOther than the suggestion to the DM to turn them into a DM controlled NPC whenever they are in Hybrid or Were form? That is a big blow to any PC were-*.
Actually, it says that for acquired lycanthropy. It specifically calls out that if someone wants a PC were, they should use the born version instead.
I guess PC's would use the +1 and never be able to buy it off.I read it that as your gain levels (in class levels) your CR "cost" of the Half-* goes up.
But you can buy off a CR every 3 levels, so that sort of cancels each other out. Again, I'd like something official from Jason and crew. :(
... lycanthropes! are they pretty much as they were in 3.5? Or are the LA and HD less restrictive to a playerOther than the suggestion to the DM to turn them into a DM controlled NPC whenever they are in Hybrid or Were form? That is a big blow to any PC were-*.
Ouch. Do they keep the alignment-shift from 3.5? My PC got infected with wererat lycanthropy and while I'd really like to keep it, I'm not playing a CE character (or handing the character sheet over to the DM as a CE NPC).
Ouch. Do they keep the alignment-shift from 3.5? My PC got infected with wererat lycanthropy and while I'd really like to keep it, I'm not playing a CE character (or handing the character sheet over to the DM as a CE NPC).... lycanthropes! are they pretty much as they were in 3.5? Or are the LA and HD less restrictive to a playerOther than the suggestion to the DM to turn them into a DM controlled NPC whenever they are in Hybrid or Were form? That is a big blow to any PC were-*.
Acquired template does. Born template (at least for werewolves) specifically states there are some good werewolves, just that the vast majority, and nearly all acquired ones, are CE. Rats are LE, not CE, in the bestiary. The rats only have a single paragraph, but I'm sure the same applies to them.
Basically, the bestiary is written so that born shapeshifters have more flexibility and control of themselves than cursed ones. Cursed ones have less power, less control, etc, but can be cured by a remove disease or heal.
I hope I'm not hijacking this thread with the question, but, what about this template:
http://www.community3e.com/dn/monster/ShadowTemplate.pdf
Of all the games I have played, I had the most fun playing the shadow template (attached to a human race). It played well, but the most fun was when the DM decided that since I turn my equipment into shadow form with me, a construct I was in contact with in combat also turned into shadow form (I activated shadow form while it held me), so we had an incorporeal construct to fight and it was really funny. He also had me take damage when in direct contact with bright light, and lowered the challenge rating.
In any case, will this book have some details for monster templates such as this? Or could I still use a template like this? I would imagine that if you took one monster, and you put another monster's template on top of it, the challenge rating would be added together.
Although the shadow template is better suited for Assassins, I think an interesting combination would be a Minotaur Shadow Fighter. Would make it possible to melee incorporeal monsters.