I am currently in a group consisting of a GM and 4 PCs. All of the roles are currently covered except for the trap finder, which falls to me. We have a Elven Mage, Human Monk/Cleric, and a Human Paladin. Rather than playing the quintessential rogue, I would like to play a Trap-finding Half-Elf Bard but with a few caveats.
I plan on sacrificing my two traits and the Multitalented racial ability for the ability to find magic traps, disable devices, and the elven weapon proficiencies.
Do you all consider this "square bidness" or do you think the GM is taking too much from me or maybe not enough?
Please help with your thoughts.
You can find mechanical traps already, anyone can disable a device (and a trap is a device). Detect magic will detect magical traps (that aren't hidden by magic). So actually I wouldn't give anything for the trap spotting ability.
As a bard you have all the weapon proficiencies except for longbow, and that's not so great anyways.
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IMO, that's a pretty fair deal.
The 'disable magic traps' thing would probably be worth the Traits. Generally people squawk when someone takes a class-exclusive ability, but, in this case, the ability to disarm magic traps isn't exactly the hot reason to play a Rogue in the first place...
The Elven weapon proficiencies are, IMO, way better than Multitalented, *for some characters,* but you are playing a Bard, so you already have longsword, rapier and shortbow proficiency, so all you'd be getting is longbow proficiency. If you were playing a half-elven Wizard, and came to me as a DM with that swap, I'd give youa dirty look while considering it, but it's really no big deal for a Bard.
Well when I mean "Elven Weapon Proficiencies" I mean racial weapons too. Therefore, I'd be able to use an elven thin blade or elven curved blade as well. Also, you can't disable magic devices unless you are a rogue. Yeah I can discover them with detect magic, but I can't disable them
True... but that's what the gnomes in a bag are for!
Well when I mean "Elven Weapon Proficiencies" I mean racial weapons too. Therefore, I'd be able to use an elven thin blade or elven curved blade as well. Also, you can't disable magic devices unless you are a rogue. Yeah I can discover them with detect magic, but I can't disable them
Well I guess it depends on the racial weapon. In general elf 'exotic' weapons are treated as martial so as a bard you would still need a feat to get them or to take a level of fighter. If your GM is giving you proficiency with the curved sword and elven thin blade then you are making out like a bandit. Overall, I don't think you have any room to complain even with just the normal elven weapon proficiencies.
As people say, MOST of Trapfinding & Disabling is now open to anybody with the Skill ranks.
Instead of messing with Racial Qualities and Traits,
you might consider giving up a Bardic Class Ability (say, Bardic Lore) in exchange for "full" (Magic) Trapfinding/Disabling and the Trap Sense bonus. That's more of a 1:1 Class Ability swap (magic traps : Untrained Knowledge checks, Trap Sense : Bard Level to Knowledge Checks).
It doesn't sound like this is something that will make your character "overpowering" within the group, but is just about letting you fill a group-helpful role without playing a Rogue... So I think your DM shouldn't have a problem 'erring on the side of generosity' (to your character).
Due to Pathfinder's changes, I don't even think "Full" (Magic) Trapfinding is necessary, especially with Casters available for Detect Magic/ Arcane Sight/ Dispel Magic/ other ways to bypass Magical Traps.
For Elven Exotic Weapons...
Honestly you should probably just take Exotic Proficiency: Elven Whizz-Diggit, it's not like wielding a Rapier and Whip DOESN'T MAKE SENSE for somebody who grew up amongst Elves - those are common Elven weapons! (at least in Golarion Whips would be common amongst Elves)
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Well I guess it depends on the racial weapon. In general elf 'exotic' weapons are treated as martial so as a bard you would still need a feat to get them or to take a level of fighter.
A valid point. Per the rules, you'd just be adding the Longbow to your list, as a Bard. And that's probably for the best. The curveblade is a bit too good to be handing out willy-nilly (being an Exotic Weapon).
Given that much of the trapfinding thing is no longer an issue in Pathfinder, I'd allow the ability to Disable magic traps as a single Trait cost item, leaving you one Trait to play with.
Well I'm starting at LVL 4 so Dispel Magic is not an option. The trait for magic traps sounds good and fair considering it's filling a key party role. I'm pretty set on wielding the curve blade, but at lvl 4 I have only 2 feats and only one can require +1 Base Attack. Therefore it's either Weapon Finesse or elven Curve blade. Perhaps I can sacrifice Multi-talented for proficiency in the Curve blade. My GM is open to many rule changes because he doesn't allow anything other than the basic rulebook. I just have to sell him on it.
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Well I'm starting at LVL 4 so Dispel Magic is not an option. The trait for magic traps sounds good and fair considering it's filling a key party role. I'm pretty set on wielding the curve blade, but at lvl 4 I have only 2 feats and only one can require +1 Base Attack. Therefore it's either Weapon Finesse or elven Curve blade. Perhaps I can sacrifice Multi-talented for proficiency in the Curve blade. My GM is open to many rule changes because he doesn't allow anything other than the basic rulebook. I just have to sell him on it.
Weapon Finesse no longer requires a +1 BAB as it did in 3.5, so you can take both.
Damn Yoda, I was totally looking over that fact!! LOL, still I'm trying to get a weapon proficiency for free. I truly believe as a half-elf raised amongst elves I should get at least one free racial weapon proficiency. Using a feat for weapon proficiency is against my religion.
Matter of fact, look at it this way. If I give up multi-talented and then multi-class, I'm essentially giving up X number of hit points or skill points. I think I"m entitled to at least a weapon proficiency
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Matter of fact, look at it this way. If I give up multi-talented and then multi-class, I'm essentially giving up X number of hit points or skill points. I think I"m entitled to at least a weapon proficiency.
Are you planning on multi-classing? A disadvantage that costs you nothing is worth nothing, as they say over at the GURPS forums...
Damn Yoda, I was totally looking over that fact!! LOL, still I'm trying to get a weapon proficiency for free. I truly believe as a half-elf raised amongst elves I should get at least one free racial weapon proficiency. Using a feat for weapon proficiency is against my religion.
Matter of fact, look at it this way. If I give up multi-talented and then multi-class, I'm essentially giving up X number of hit points or skill points. I think I"m entitled to at least a weapon proficiency
Most people (on this thread) agree that it would be reasonable for your character to trade to get the same racial weapon profs that a normal elf would get. It's when you start tacking on the stuff that a normal elf doesn't get that they cringe.
You are missing the fact that an elf bard would not get the proficiencies you seem to feel entitled to get.
Dennis, I see the point you are making. I keep forgetting they get to treat the weapon as a martial weapon not a free proficiency. Looks like I'll have to take that proficiency after all, even if my GM accepts the elven raised angle.
Unless I go Fighter-1/Bard-3 :)
Vaguely curious... why not just play an elf?
Why not play an elf?!?!? LOL, to be honest man, I'm a fantasy racist. I don't play anything other than human . Right now I can't get this half elven bard angle out of my head, but truth be told, by the time my Sunday game rolls around there's a very good chance I'll be a human.
Let's approcah this from a different angle. Say I wish to play a Fighter -2/Rogue-2; would a trait be a fair exchange to have proficiency with the Elven curved blade? An elven curved blade is considered martial for elves, so I'd essentially be exchanging half a feat for half a racial feat.
We can call it "limited racial weapon familiarity"
Let's approcah this from a different angle. Say I wish to play a Fighter -2/Rogue-2; would a trait be a fair exchange to have proficiency with the Elven curved blade? An elven curved blade is considered martial for elves, so I'd essentially be exchanging half a feat for half a racial feat.
We can call it "limited racial weapon familiarity"
Pathfinder Traits are supposed to be "half-feats" so exchanging a trait for full on proficiency sounds a bit much even then.
If you went Human Fighter 2 > Rogue 2 you'd have 5 feats by second level with another feat at 3rd. For a total of 6 feats.
If you have the Elves of Golarion book... you could take the Adopted Trait and pick up one of the elven racial traits for a little elven flavor. You can also say you are 1/12 elf or something and just a "elf-blooded" human.
Pathfinder Traits are supposed to be "half-feats" so exchanging a trait for full on proficiency sounds a bit much even then.If you went Human Fighter 2 > Rogue 2 you'd have 5 feats by second level with another feat at 3rd. For a total of 6 feats.
If you have the Elves of Golarion book... you could take the Adopted Trait and pick up one of the elven racial traits for a little elven flavor. You can also say you are 1/12 elf or something and just a "elf-blooded" human.
Yeah but the angle is I am a half-elf. So you are saying I have to take a full feat to be proficient in a "half-exotic" weapon. Not to mention a full blooded elf would get this for free.
A little bit of logic is in order
Pathfinder Traits are supposed to be "half-feats" so exchanging a trait for full on proficiency sounds a bit much even then.If you went Human Fighter 2 > Rogue 2 you'd have 5 feats by second level with another feat at 3rd. For a total of 6 feats.
If you have the Elves of Golarion book... you could take the Adopted Trait and pick up one of the elven racial traits for a little elven flavor. You can also say you are 1/12 elf or something and just a "elf-blooded" human.
Yeah but the angle is I am a half-elf. So you are saying I have to take a full feat to be proficient in a "half-exotic" weapon. Not to mention a full blooded elf would get this for free.
A little bit of logic is in order
The racial ability does not actually give you full proficiency in weapons with "elven" in the name. It only allows them as a martial weapon. A elven warrior would just have a easier time learning them because of this.
He still has a much longer time span to learn this "ease" with elven weapons.
A elven bard would not gain this same benefit. Neither would a half-elven bard.
The racial ability does not actually give you full proficiency in weapons with "elven" in the name. It only allows them as a martial weapon. A elven warrior would just have a easier time learning them because of this.
He still has a much longer time span to learn this "ease" with elven weapons.
A elven bard would not gain this same benefit. Neither would a half-elven bard.
I've conceded defeat on the bard character. I switched to a fighter-2/rogue-2 a few lines up.
Let's approcah this from a different angle. Say I wish to play a Fighter -2/Rogue-2; would a trait be a fair exchange to have proficiency with the Elven curved blade? An elven curved blade is considered martial for elves, so I'd essentially be exchanging half a feat for half a racial feat.
We can call it "limited racial weapon familiarity"
Why not just trade it for the "Adaptable" racial trait (Skill Focus). You are trading a (racial ability that is a) feat for a racial ability that's worth slightly more than a feat (racial weapon proficiency) regardless of whether it's bard or fighter.
Why not just trade it for the "Adaptable" racial trait (Skill Focus). You are trading a (racial ability that is a) feat for a racial ability that's worth slightly more than a feat (racial weapon proficiency) regardless of whether it's bard or fighter.
I hear you loud and clear Dennis, but by giving up adaptability for proficiency in one item, I feel like I'm getting the short end of the stick. A trait seems more reasonable since I"m giving half a feat for half a racial ability. the fact that I'm taking a martial class as well, seems like it's more to add to my favor.
I know it sounds lame, but sacrificing a feat seems too much. I'm already going to use one to have proficiency with a light repeating crossbow.
I'm working on a Devil May Cry like Half-eld fighter/rogue. Big finessable sword and a repeating crossbow (firearms suck and dual wielding crossbows takes a -4 which I consider too much}
Why not just trade it for the "Adaptable" racial trait (Skill Focus). You are trading a (racial ability that is a) feat for a racial ability that's worth slightly more than a feat (racial weapon proficiency) regardless of whether it's bard or fighter.I hear you loud and clear Dennis, but by giving up adaptability for proficiency in one item, I feel like I'm getting the short end of the stick. A trait seems more reasonable since I"m giving half a feat for half a racial ability. the fact that I'm taking a martial class as well, seems like it's more to add to my favor.
I know it sounds lame, but sacrificing a feat seems too much. I'm already going to use one to have proficiency with a light repeating crossbow.
I'm working on a Devil May Cry like Half-eld fighter/rogue. Big finessable sword and a repeating crossbow (firearms suck and dual wielding crossbows takes a -4 which I consider too much}
*Shrug*
It just seems like you are trying to get more than you should.
The half-elven bonus (skill focus) feat is like the human racial bonus feat at first level... they just choose it for you. On top of that you get all the other nifty immunities and bonuses. (human only get a skill point)
You asked us if we thought it was "square" or not. We've replied.
Anything else is up to your DM to decide.
Good Luck! :)
*Shrug*
It just seems like you are trying to get more than you should.
The half-elven bonus (skill focus) feat is like the human racial bonus feat at first level... they just choose it for you. On top of that you get all the other nifty immunities and bonuses. (human only get a skill point)
You asked us if we thought it was "square" or not. We've replied.
Anything else is up to your DM to decide.
Good Luck! :)
I understand and respect your point of view. I'm really only asking for fairness for myself. this is the same gamemaster who allowed a person to become an armor wearing monk and only sacrifice his wisdom bonus to AC so, I'm really not that worried. This is small beans compared to that situation.
...this is the same gamemaster who allowed a person to become an armor wearing monk and only sacrifice his wisdom bonus to AC so, I'm really not that worried. This is small beans compared to that situation.
Wow. Just wow. I'm surprised the DM doesn't just let you tack on something like what you want with no sacrifice at all. He game that Monk player a heck of a lot.
I understand and respect your point of view. I'm really only asking for fairness for myself. this is the same gamemaster who allowed a person to become an armor wearing monk and only sacrifice his wisdom bonus to AC so, I'm really not that worried. This is small beans compared to that situation.
*Shrug*
It just seems like you are trying to get more than you should.
The half-elven bonus (skill focus) feat is like the human racial bonus feat at first level... they just choose it for you. On top of that you get all the other nifty immunities and bonuses. (human only get a skill point)
You asked us if we thought it was "square" or not. We've replied.
Anything else is up to your DM to decide.
Good Luck! :)
That is a situational modifier I was not aware of. By comparison... asking to trade in your pf traits for full elven weapon familiarity is indeed "small beans". If the GM is going to break the game balance then all bets are off.
Your request seems reasonable under those conditions.
Yeah but the angle is I am a half-elf. So you are saying I have to take a full feat to be proficient in a "half-exotic" weapon. Not to mention a full blooded elf would get this for free.
Well, so many races get so many things for free, while others have to pay for them. That's how it is.
Half-elves are their own race really. Their abilities overlap a bit with their parent races, but you don't get everything.
An elven curved blade is considered martial for elves, so I'd essentially be exchanging half a feat for half a racial feat.
Actually, most of the time you only use one of those weapons, so it's basically a whole ability.