|
A preface first. We have a good sized group of folks that meet and play Pathfinder (currently) every two weeks. The part consists of:
2 Clerics, 1 Ranger, 1 Beast Master(adjusted from 3.5: Druid 4, Fighter 1, BM 2), 1 Rogue, 1 Sorcerer, 1 Wizard and 1 Barbarian. Everyone is 7th level. Most of the characters have decent hit points (I allow one roll for HP or take the average
Both clerics have "Selective Channeling", 14 Charisma and the Heavy Armor Proficiency. The ability to heal all 8 characters for 4d6 of damage ten times a day is making most of the combats a pushover for the party. That is an average of 1,120 (8*3.5*4*10) hit points healed per day. I'm having a tough time creating reasonable encounters.
An example of the problem is the fight with Grazuul in "Hook Mountain Massacre". The ogre's leading up to this fight were mere speed bumps. For this battle I added a bigger brother to Grazuul:
Drazuul Male Troll; Large Giant Giant6 Fighter6 Barbarian1
HitDice:(6d8)+(6d10)+(1d12)+130 HitPoints:206
Initiative:+2 Speed:Walk 40 ft.
AC:20(touch 11,flat-footed 18)
Attacks:*Bite+15;*Claw+20/+20;Damage:*Bite1d6+4;*Claw1d8+11;
Vision:Darkvision (90 ft.), Low-lightFace/Reach:10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks:Rage, Rend
Special Qualities:Fast Movement, Giant Traits, Regeneration, Scent
Saves:Fortitude:+22,Reflex:+6,Will:+3
Abilities:STR 28(+9),DEX 14(+2),CON 30(+10),INT 6(-2),WIS 8(-1),CHA 6(-2)
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (Bite), Improved Natural Attack (Claw), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Bite, Claw), Weapon Specialization (Claw)
Alignment:Chaotic Evil
CMB: 21
CMD: 28
Possessions: Chain Shirt
I warned the group that I would probably kill someone with this fight. I should not have worried. Although it was a tough fight the only real threat of death came from one the trolls attempting to drag one of the dwarves into the water. I think the party felt justifiably good about beating this fight. The ranger's favored enemy did help in this case.
It makes me wonder if the channel energy ability was really pitched towards the average party size of 4 and not the kind of group we have (i.e. 8 characters). I'm hoping that as the party gains levels the effect of channel energy will have less of an impact. Scaling encounters in 3.0/3.5 was something I had to do for this large group but the channel energy SU ability just seems to have made it worse.
Thoughts? Opinions? Suggestions?
I use a recharge time of 1d6+1 rounds (but then again, I've using the recharge magic variant from Unearthed Arcana). That prevents it from being spammed too often in combat, but you can still heal up out of combat (rather than relying on wands of CLW, etc.).
It makes me wonder if the channel energy ability was really pitched towards the average party size of 4 and not the kind of group we have (i.e. 8 characters). I'm hoping that as the party gains levels the effect of channel energy will have less of an impact. Scaling encounters in 3.0/3.5 was something I had to do for this large group but the channel energy SU ability just seems to have made it worse.
Channel energy does a d6/2 levels, so as a fraction of total hit points, it will become less and less effective as you go to higher levels. OTOH, I believe the game was designed for 4-5 or 5-6 people in a party.
How effective it is can also depend a lot on what strategies the opponents use. If all the damage has gone to one character, seven of the eight party members get no benefit from the channel. Intelligent foes will know that clerics can channel energy and that it's not effective to slowly drain everyone's hit points. They might even attempt to swarm the cleric, so that he is forced to heal some of them if he channels.
Sounds like the problem is party size. Bigger monsters won't solve that because they lose on the economy of actions still... more monsters however would work, since they can tie up more character's actions and bring the economy of action back into balance.
That's where your challenges are really losing out.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
|
More monsters are always good, and things you can't heal with channel energy - clouds that sicken, ability damage, negative levels etc. Swarms may be nice - automatic damage every round and tricky to use area effect spells against if the cleric has to stay within 30 feet too.
The 30' radius is a good one to exploit - baleful transposition, lasso, grapple or drag away a victim. Push, entangle, beartrap or telekenisis the cleric out of the way, drop them in a pit, lock them behind a portcullis, or keep them out of the action briefly while hurting them. Target two PCs at opposite sides to split the clerics, focus fire on two targets more than 30' apart.
Confusion effects are great for splitting the party - a gibbering mouther is always good for a laugh. Lots of undead minions will keep them turning instead of healing. Animate skeletons with animate object and watch them waste turning attempts and wonder who is bolstering the undead. Use low-level plentiful undead with dangerous powers like ghouls - they can't risk healing if someone might get paralysed, so they'll turn instead.
With 8 PCs you're much better with lots of enemies spread out than one or two big ones. Huge fights are fun :-)
Traps can suck up a lot of healing, as can simple stuff like poisoned caltrops.
That's all I have for now!
Yeah, the problem here is party size (and your chosen method of countering it), not channel energy. Hook Mountain Massacre is designed with a party of 4 in mind. You have a party of 8.
The best solution is to split the party into two separate campaign sessions. If that's too much work, or it won't fit peoples' schedules, etc etc, then you're going to have to do a ton of modifications to the encounters. Just doubling everything won't automatically preserve the intended challenge level.
Yeah, the problem here is party size (and your chosen method of countering it), not channel energy. Hook Mountain Massacre is designed with a party of 4 in mind. You have a party of 8.
The best solution is to split the party into two separate campaign sessions. If that's too much work, or it won't fit peoples' schedules, etc etc, then you're going to have to do a ton of modifications to the encounters. Just doubling everything won't automatically preserve the intended challenge level.
Agreed. 150% the numbers and 125% the power level should work well (it has in my experience). Toughens the monsters up enough to survive a bit of the gang up they'll take, and gives enough extra to keep the gang up from happening as hard. In a case where you only have 1 big baddy to fight this is a bit different -- Typically giving him 2 or 3 summoned creatures equal 2/3~3/4 his CR will do.
This may sound strange, but you can bump up the power of the monsters all you want, and that group will still mop the floor with them. To illustrate, think of how a battle with a storm giant would play out. As long as everyone has the sense to not get themselves full attacked, the giant probably can't kill anyone with a single hit,and wouldn't last more then a few rounds. This may be an extreme example, but as that adventure is full of the weaker giants, the most powerful giant in the MM is a good benchmark.
I think the reason for this is the Rock-Paper-Scissors aspect of the game. By this I mean that with a group that size, you are almost always able to use the most effective attacks, while presenting the strongest defenses. Rather then attempting to make the monsters into bigger tougher versions, diversify them. Mix in a whole bunch of cleric and sorcerer ogres or monk and druid trolls. Think of what a dispel magic followed by a good strong blast of negative energy will do to that big group.
|
|
Thanks all for the feedback. Much appreciated. I've committed to playing the "Rise of the Runelords" through with the rule-set as is.
The group is usually pretty sharp about blocking paths and not letting any one character soak up too much damage.
The comment about economy of actions was spot on. The more monsters path rather than bigger monsters sounds like the way to go. I'll post again once I've had a chance to try that out.
thanks,
Hawk Of May.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
|
JollyDoc (on enWorld), posting here as Joseph Jolly, ran Age of Worms, Savage Tide, ROTR and COCT with a group of between 6 and 8. You might want to post in one of his threads (here or on the enWorld Story Hour forum) and ask him for ideas. He recommended doubling all mooks and not boosting the levels of 'named' bad guys. (Just gives the big group too much xp, and forces them to deal with spells etc that are beyond their level).
The numbers issue is definitwely your biggest headache. Good luck! I've ran weekend sessiosn for 7 and 8, I'm not sure I could do it every week!
Uhh.. fireballs?
Huge parties have always been unfortunately vulnerable to area attacks; ten level 8 characters will go up in smoke just as easily as one. Especially if you make the mistake of trying to compensate for the group size by giving that sorcerer a few more sorcerer levels. What you're seeing is the same dynamic in reverse, and throwing in a few area spells to compensate might not be a bad idea. Multiple elite fighters using Whirlwind Attack can be used to similar effect.
Single, very powerful creatures definitely aren't the way to go. The group's hitpoints are spread thin, and you'll end up making melee fiends who can quickly kill one PC without being a match for the group as a whole. Instead, I think you want to have them beset on all sides by multiple moderately-powerful enemies: those two cleric players WANTED to play combat medics, and you're doing the right thing if they feel like their efforts actually matter and contribute to party success.
Whatever the case, I don't think that clerics or channel energy are the problem. If those two decided to play something else your group would be just as powerful, if not moreso; the fights would just be shorter and bloodier. A large group can mount a staggering offense (shredding lone BBEGs) but is in turn more susceptible to individual casualties; you should appreciate your healbuddies for slowing things down.
Large parties require large encounters, not simply more powerful ones. You need to spread PC damage-dealing among multiple targets and prevent everyone and their mother from flanking. With a 2x size party, simply going +2 CR isn't enough.
The other danger of using a single tough monster is that it will often need to concentrate its power on a single target. "25% of the party's resources" might end up meaning 80% of the fighters hit points, 1 spell from each caster and the paladin's life. Several smaller foes might instead use 2 spells from each caster, 40% of the fighters hit points, 80% of the paladin's hit points and 50% of the rogue's hit points. I'm pretty certain the player of the paladin will be much happier with the latter option.
In one of the first sessions I GM'ed, I sent a Manticore (CR 5) against a party of 5 level 3 PCs, about 4 level 2 NPCs and about 8 level 1 NPCs. The party was nominally a little bit stronger than a 4 person level 5 party, and in practice, there was little danger of a TPK. However, there were one or two dead NPCs before the Manticore even closed for melee. That was less than 10% of the party resources, but I doubt that anyone would describe it as an "acceptable cost".
You also run the risk of encountering abilities that a party of that level isn't prepared for. DR/magic when the party is only starting to think about magic weapons could seriously limit the effectiveness of the fighter or rogue. A CR 15 monster that can cast Blasphemy at caster level 13 would only affect the minions of a 14+ level party, but a level 12 party would be dazed and weakened.