Let's say that a Jermlaine (from MM II 3.5) wants to ride atop his Dire Rat friend. He wants a Riding Saddle. The Riding Saddle in the equipment section doesn't seem to change size with the size of the mount. Is the riding saddle for a Dire Rat still 25 lbs? Or since it would be an exotic saddle (so that the Jermlaine could strap himself on while the rat climbs) would it be 30 lbs? I don't think a dire rat can move 30 lbs... I mean, it is a small creature. That seems a bit exorbitant to me...
Even 25 lbs for a riding dog seems too much for a medium-sized saddle. Is there any ruling on this? It is the same in 3.5, although I had never played a medium-sized mounted character before, so I never knew about it.
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1) Let's say that a Jermlaine (from MM II 3.5) wants to ride atop his Dire Rat friend.
2) The Riding Saddle in the equipment section doesn't seem to change size with the size of the mount.
3) Is the riding saddle for a Dire Rat still 25 lbs?
4) Or since it would be an exotic saddle ... would it be 30 lbs?
1) Dire Rat is Small? If so, yes a Tiny can Ride a Small.
2) It doesn't magically resize, no.
3) I'm pretty sure Small items weight half of Medium items, so it would be 12.5 pounds. Look at the equipment armour section for a footnote detailing this.
4) Exotic costs 5 lb more? If so, 2.5 lb more for small.
1) Let's say that a Jermlaine (from MM II 3.5) wants to ride atop his Dire Rat friend.
2) The Riding Saddle in the equipment section doesn't seem to change size with the size of the mount.
3) Is the riding saddle for a Dire Rat still 25 lbs?
4) Or since it would be an exotic saddle ... would it be 30 lbs?
1) Dire Rat is Small? If so, yes a Tiny can Ride a Small.
2) It doesn't magically resize, no.
3) I'm pretty sure Small items weight half of Medium items, so it would be 12.5 pounds. Look at the equipment armour section for a footnote detailing this.
4) Exotic costs 5 lb more? If so, 2.5 lb more for small.
If you notice, all of the equipment after Armor has a note indicating whether it has a smaller size for a smaller creature or not. For instance, a backpack has a superscript 1 next to its weight, indicating that for a small creature, it weighs ¼ as much as it does for a medium creature. Saddles are in that list. They don't have any note indicating a change in weight when being used by a creature of a different size category. They don't seem to change weight. The same 25 pound saddle is used for the heavy warhorse as is used for the dire rat mount.
Edit: Additionally, what is with size changes and weights? A character who gains a size category becomes 8x his former weight. A weapon made for a character one size category larger is only 2x the weight? And mundane equipment/clothing for a medium character is 4x the weight as for a small character? Why not have some modicum of consistency for these weight factors?
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Saddles are in that list. They don't have any note indicating a change in weight when being used by a creature of a different size category. They don't seem to change weight.
p 162 makes two notes: 1) Large Barding weighs double Medium armour, 2) Medium Barding weights the same as Medium armour, 3) An Animal wearing barding can only carry the rider and normal saddlebags, nothing more.
p 151 makes one note: 1) Armour for medium weights the amount listed, but small weight half as much.
So by the rules (RAW) your Small Barding "Full Plate" weights half Medium Armour Full Plate.
As for the multipliers:
8x is for the weight of the creature, bigger creatures weight a lot more.
2x for Large items shouldn't weight 8x because a larger sword isn't going to be twice as thick, and might not even be twice as long.
4x for Medium vs Small gear also makes sense.
At least these three make sense to me, and a uniform "one size fits all" if you will size-weight multiplier doesn't make sense.
Let's say that a Jermlaine (from MM II 3.5) wants to ride atop his Dire Rat friend.
Also keep in mind that a tiny creature only threatens creatures in its own square. That means that a tyny or smaller creature riding a small or larger mount will need a lance in order to attack.
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Let's say that a Jermlaine (from MM II 3.5) wants to ride atop his Dire Rat friend.Also keep in mind that a tiny creature only threatens creatures in its own square. That means that a tyny or smaller creature riding a small or larger mount will need a lance in order to attack.
Actually, a Tiny is screwed in 3.p rules.
He doesn't gain reach for reach weapons because they didn't include that line (or even that whole paragraph) in the rules from 3.5 DMG p29 (iirc the page number.)
If you are Tiny, you can't threaten ever.
Saddles are in that list. They don't have any note indicating a change in weight when being used by a creature of a different size category. They don't seem to change weight.p 162 makes two notes: 1) Large Barding weighs double Medium armour, 2) Medium Barding weights the same as Medium armour, 3) An Animal wearing barding can only carry the rider and normal saddlebags, nothing more.
p 151 makes one note: 1) Armour for medium weights the amount listed, but small weight half as much.
So by the rules (RAW) your Small Barding "Full Plate" weights half Medium Armour Full Plate.
Barding is not a saddle. The definition of barding:
1. Armor. any of various pieces of defensive armor for a horse.--From Dictionary.com
This means that even if you have barding for your mount, you still need a saddle. This saddle is separate from the barding, and since a saddle is decidedly not armor, it falls into the category of items that have weights separate from armor. Since there is no superscript indicating that it has a different weight, it must weigh a constant amount, regardless of the size of the creature to be ridden.
As for the multipliers:
8x is for the weight of the creature, bigger creatures weight a lot more.2x for Large items shouldn't weight 8x because a larger sword isn't going to be twice as thick, and might not even be twice as long.
4x for Medium vs Small gear also makes sense.
At least these three make sense to me, and a uniform "one size fits all" if you will size-weight multiplier doesn't make sense.
Your argument lacks consistency at every level. Look at Shrink Item. An item drops four size categories. It's weight drops to 1/4000th of its original weight. Anyone, what's the quartic root of 4000? It is just over 7.9, and in fact rounds to 8. That means that 8x is the standard for items. So, a halfling (whose clothes weigh 1/4 of a medium creature's clothes), uses Righteous Might to become Medium. His clothes now weigh TWICE AS MUCH as clothes that he could just put on while Medium-sized.
Let's say that a Jermlaine (from MM II 3.5) wants to ride atop his Dire Rat friend.Also keep in mind that a tiny creature only threatens creatures in its own square. That means that a tyny or smaller creature riding a small or larger mount will need a lance in order to attack.
The lance does nothing for a tiny creature. A lance doubles your range. Zero times two happens to be... zero.
What's more, a halfling cleric wielding a greatsword is holding a 4 pound greatsword. He casts Righteous Might. He is now holding a 32 pound greatsword. He swings that greatsword around for 2d6 damage. His sword gets sundered, so he drops it, and runs over to the wall where there just so happens to be a medium-sized greatsword. It weighs 8 pounds. He picks it up, and swings it around for 2d6 damage. That doesn't seem right to me, yet the text for Righteous Might says that objects the cleric was wearing/holding when he gained the size category increases in size and weight just as the cleric himself had, so it works out. It just seems wrong.
I think that PF should update this to be consistent. There should be one rule governing weights so that if you want an item in a smaller size category, you can apply some formula to it, and voila! You have the item in a smaller size category.
Ooh, one more thought in that regard... A character could craft a Colossal weapon (a weapon made for a Colossal character). Such a weapon would be 16x heavier than a weapon for a Medium character. He can make it masterwork. Once it is complete, assuming he is a wizard, he can make it permanently Shrunken. It instantly drops to a Medium-sized weapon, weighing 1/4000th of its original weight. Example: A greatsword for a Colossal creature would weigh 8x16 = 128 lbs. Permanency + Shrink Object makes it 0.032 lbs. Since it was nonmagical when shrunk, it can now be enchanted. The spell only checks for a valid target when it is cast. Now that the magic is present, you can make the sword magical without effecting the Shrink Object spell. So, for only 7,500 extra gold, you can have a weapon that is virtually weightless.
At least, that was the 3.5 ruling for how spellcasting worked (where it only checked for a valid target when casting). I dunno if PF updated that. I haven't seen an update for that particular 3.5 ruling.
Just a mention regarding the Shrink Object spell. I was playing around with some numbers, putting together some fun with falling rocks. What I figured, and I may be wrong, was that 1/150 makes more sense for the weight than 1/4000. The 1/4000 is based on some erroneous math. Anyway, for the dimension reduction, 1/150 is a more appropriate scale.
Let's say that a Jermlaine (from MM II 3.5) wants to ride atop his Dire Rat friend.Also keep in mind that a tiny creature only threatens creatures in its own square. That means that a tyny or smaller creature riding a small or larger mount will need a lance in order to attack.Actually, a Tiny is screwed in 3.p rules.
He doesn't gain reach for reach weapons because they didn't include that line (or even that whole paragraph) in the rules from 3.5 DMG p29 (iirc the page number.)
If you are Tiny, you can't threaten ever.
That will get errated, I am sure.
Honestly, the whole weapon size/damage/etc really torqued me off in 3.5.
I ended up going through the weapons and redoing the size/weight/damage ratios so that it all fit into a nice neat matrix.
Take a Large dagger, it does the same damage weighs the same as a Medium short sword which weighs the same and does the same damage as a Small Long Sword which weighs the same and does the same damage as a Tiny Great Sword.
I had to, I had one person playing a half-giant with a sizing sword, and another character with a belt of sizing (whatever it's called) and another who was casting Enlarge on himself. So the weapons would go up and down like yo-yo's and the weights would change haphazardly and damages and it was just a mess. You'd start with two weapons of different sizes that were the same weapon, and the Large one would shrink and the small one would grow and they'd have different damages. Or worse, the large would shrink and the medium would grow and the grown medium would do less damage than the large used to, and the shrunk large would do different damage (1d12 vs 2d6). Weird. My players loved it once it was fixed, all you had to know was 'What does my weapon type do as a Medium weapon'. Then size it up or down appropriately (1, 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, etc).
Honestly, the whole weapon size/damage/etc really torqued me off in 3.5.
I ended up going through the weapons and redoing the size/weight/damage ratios so that it all fit into a nice neat matrix.
Take a Large dagger, it does the same damage weighs the same as a Medium short sword which weighs the same and does the same damage as a Small Long Sword which weighs the same and does the same damage as a Tiny Great Sword.
I had to, I had one person playing a half-giant with a sizing sword, and another character with a belt of sizing (whatever it's called) and another who was casting Enlarge on himself. So the weapons would go up and down like yo-yo's and the weights would change haphazardly and damages and it was just a mess. You'd start with two weapons of different sizes that were the same weapon, and the Large one would shrink and the small one would grow and they'd have different damages. Or worse, the large would shrink and the medium would grow and the grown medium would do less damage than the large used to, and the shrunk large would do different damage (1d12 vs 2d6). Weird. My players loved it once it was fixed, all you had to know was 'What does my weapon type do as a Medium weapon'. Then size it up or down appropriately (1, 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, etc).
Yes! This would be perfect! Any chance you could post that here? Maybe someone from Paizo can take a look and decide if they want to implement your weight progressions.
Yes! This would be perfect! Any chance you could post that here? Maybe someone from Paizo can take a look and decide if they want to implement your weight progressions.
I'll give it a try, gotta find it (we're on hiatus from D&D until another month or two down the road, so I don't have them in my game folder right now). Plus I gotta format it so it works on here (hard).
Ok,
The first thing we did was throw out the weapon sizing rules from the Arms & Equipment guide for weight, as that caused the weights to work out wierd. The weapon gets a 50% boost to weight going up, and 25% decrease going down. 10lbs up by one level is 10 * 1.5 = 15. 15 Down by 1 is 15 * 0.75 = 11.25. So, theoretically if you have a sizing great ax and you keep going up to Large and back down to Medium, eventually the thing weighs more than you do. :)
We used the following : Each boost in size category increases weight by 1/2, each reduction decreases weight by 1/3. So, 10 + (10 * 1/2) = 15. 15 * 2/3 = 10. This works out across the board, no matter how you do it or how many times you increase/decrease the size. 10 * 1.5 = 15 * 1.5 = 22.5. 22.5 * 2/3 = 15 * 2/3 = 10. Yes it's a little more complicated, but really, we're not talking about large numbers here. You can make a table easily in a spreadsheet with every weight from 1 to 20 lbs and be able to handle every weapon in the book and every supplement.
Then, we went through and reduced the damage dice to a finite set.
1, 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 8d6, 12d6
12d6 we only needed for a Colossal Great Crossbow and a Colossal Fullblade. Which kind of makes sense, since a Colossal Great Crossbow is really a seige weapon ballista. :)
Next, we grouped weapons into categories, to keep track of what they were based on sizing.
Blades
Dagger
Short Sword
Long Sword
Great Sword/Bastard Sword
Fullblade
So, if you have a medium long sword and you shrink it, it becomes a short sword (and goes doing 1d8 to 1d6, one step down on the damage chart). If you grow it, it goes to 2d6 (a great sword). Now, that did give us some problems with a couple of weapons. Bastard Swords to be specific. The changes to the damage dice meant they couldn't fall between a great sword and a long sword anymore. That was ok with us, it always seemed bolted on anyway. So, a bastard sword and a greatsword do the same damage in this system. The difference is that because a bastard sword is constructed differently, you can learn to wield it one-handed (with an exotic weapon proficiency) without penalty. So that kept it useful. A great sword you couldn't do that (monkeygrip would work, but that's a -2 penalty).
We also modified unarmed for diminutive creatures, they get to actually do 1 point of damage (just didn't seem fair they got to do no damage, and if you don't think ants can't do damage, watch those south american army ants). The conversion of the weapons in the book is as follows :
Old medium -> New Medium
1 to 1d8 -> Same
1d10, 1d12, 2d6 -> 2d6
3d6 or more -> Same
That's it. Short of putting in a table of all the weapons/damages/etc. The rest of the weapon groups are pretty simple.
Hammers : Maul, Warhammer, Light Hammer
Axes : Greataxe, Battleaxe, Handaxe
Spears : Harpoon, Long Spear, Short Spear
Crossbow : Heavy Ballista, Light Ballista, Great Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow, Light Crossbow, Hand Crossbow
Bows : Longbow, Shortbow
EDIT: As to weapon weights within the same category. To get them all correct, we picked the middle most weapon (so, Long Sword for Blades) in the PHB and used it as the 'base' weight. Then to get a short sword, we made that 2/3rds the weight of a Long Sword, and the Dagger 2/3rds the weight of a Short Sword. A Great Sword/Bastard Sword was 50% heavier than a Long Sword, and a Full Blade was 50% heavier than a Great Sword. That way resizing was consistent across the board. We did round the smaller weapons to the nearest 1/4 lb for ease of addition. They ended up fairly close to originals.
Dagger : 1.75 lbs
Short Sword : 2.50 lbs
Long Sword : 4 lbs
Great Sword : 6 lbs
Full Blade : 9 lbs
Honestly the sizing rules have been borked since 1st ed. Gygax didn't understand the square/cube law and the errors have continued up until Pathfinder despite attempted patches and revisions.
A halfling weighs 1/8th what a human does, so all the clothing and equipment sized for them should likewise weigh 1/8th. Maybe slightly more if you take thickness and so forth into account and assume everyone's clothes are made of the same stuff and is the same thickness, but even then, you're still looking at 1/4 weight, not 1/2. Take a scarf sized for a human. Cut it into four halfling-sized scarves, each will weigh 1/4, not 1/2. Pop apart the rings for a human-size chainmail shirt and make four halfling-size chainmail shirts, you will have four shirts that again weigh 1/4 and not 1/2 and that's even assuming you're using the same ring size for humans and halflings, which is assuming an awful lot. Especially if you assume that plate armor for a giant will be the same thickness as plat armor for a pixie, which is absurd--a pixie could make platemail out of a beer can, whereas a giant would need battleship plate.
Just assume that smaller folk take thinner finer stuff and bigger ones take thicker coarser stuff and you can apply the square/cube law across the board and have done with it.
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Honestly the sizing rules have been borked since 1st ed.
A halfling weighs 1/8th what a human does, so all the clothing and equipment sized for them should likewise weigh 1/8th.
I totally disagree with you (and the thesis the weight rules in D&D in general are not correct.)
For example, these two shirts (Men's and Childrens) weight
http://halloweentshirts.spreadshirt.com/us/US/Shop/Article/Index/article/Sp ider-Halloween-T-shirt-3573892
Men's 5.6 oz
http://halloweentshirts.spreadshirt.com/us/US/Shop/Article/Index/article/Sp ider-Halloween-T-shirt-3573913
Kid's 6.1 oz
Take into account the double stitch and you still have similar weights (possibly 4 oz without double.)
In short, even 1/4 weight is more than reality. But a kid really does weight 1/8 th. I weight 250 lbs and a small kid could easily weight 30 to 50 lbs. If I were shrunk from 6'4" to 2'9" I'd imagine I would weight around 1/8th.
Honestly the sizing rules have been borked since 1st ed.
A halfling weighs 1/8th what a human does, so all the clothing and equipment sized for them should likewise weigh 1/8th.
I totally disagree with you (and the thesis the weight rules in D&D in general are not correct.)
For example, these two shirts (Men's and Childrens) weight
http://halloweentshirts.spreadshirt.com/us/US/Shop/Article/Index/article/Sp ider-Halloween-T-shirt-3573892
Men's 5.6 ozhttp://halloweentshirts.spreadshirt.com/us/US/Shop/Article/Index/article/Sp ider-Halloween-T-shirt-3573913
Kid's 6.1 ozTake into account the double stitch and you still have similar weights (possibly 4 oz without double.)
In short, even 1/4 weight is more than reality. But a kid really does weight 1/8 th. I weight 250 lbs and a small kid could easily weight 30 to 50 lbs. If I were shrunk from 6'4" to 2'9" I'd imagine I would weight around 1/8th.
Actually, you'd weigh less than 1/8th with that much shrinking. You'd weigh 1/8th if you were shrunk from 6'4" to 3'2", and a 2'9" halfling would weigh eight times as much if enlarged to 5'6" There's a formula for weights where there isn't an exact doubling of dimensions, mostly a matter of taking cube roots and multiplying them.
And as I said, 1/4 is fine for weight if you're assuming the same fabric/materials, but there are some discrepancies because they generally use the same buttons for shirts regardless of whether you're large or small.
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And as I said, 1/4 is fine for weight if you're assuming the same fabric/materials, but there are some discrepancies because they generally use the same buttons for shirts regardless of whether you're large or small.
Except for in the real world, children shirts identical to an adult Men's shirt isn't even less weight? Much less 1/4 of the Men's shirt weight?
Oh, sorry, this is D&D. Reality doesn't matter, gotcha. So in D&D 1/4 weight is fine, while in reality the Small Halfling wouldn't get a break on gear weights.
And as I said, 1/4 is fine for weight if you're assuming the same fabric/materials, but there are some discrepancies because they generally use the same buttons for shirts regardless of whether you're large or small.Except for in the real world, children shirts identical to an adult Men's shirt isn't even less weight? Much less 1/4 of the Men's shirt weight?
Oh, sorry, this is D&D. Reality doesn't matter, gotcha. So in D&D 1/4 weight is fine, while in reality the Small Halfling wouldn't get a break on gear weights.
Honestly, I think there's something funky going on with the adult shirt weighing slightly less than the kid version. Either the adult one is made of thinner fabric, or else they just got the weights wrong.
Honestly, I think there's something funky going on with the adult shirt weighing slightly less than the kid version. Either the adult one is made of thinner fabric, or else they just got the weights wrong.And as I said, 1/4 is fine for weight if you're assuming the same fabric/materials, but there are some discrepancies because they generally use the same buttons for shirts regardless of whether you're large or small.Except for in the real world, children shirts identical to an adult Men's shirt isn't even less weight? Much less 1/4 of the Men's shirt weight?
Oh, sorry, this is D&D. Reality doesn't matter, gotcha. So in D&D 1/4 weight is fine, while in reality the Small Halfling wouldn't get a break on gear weights.
There is a difference between clothing for children and clothing for adults. Children need more warmth than adults. An adult halfling is NOT the same as a human child, even if they may be similar in height.
The issue seems to be with size categories, not weights. Because of this abstraction, some realism is lost. How we deal with the lost realism should therefore be consistent. Size category changes should all have a consistent factor of change. Heights always change by a factor of 2. Widths change by a factor of 2. Depths change by a factor of 2. This means that volume changes by a factor of 8. Since density is constant, weight should change by a constant factor of 8. This would offer the most consistency, even if the specifics might be a bit off in a few cases.
Even if the factor of 8 is not acceptable, and some modicum of realism is intended (even though it doesn't make sense in most cases), then some form of consistency should be added so that when you are dealing with differences in size categories, you have a method of judging items of different sizes.
For the record... thank you. I am totally doing this for my next swashbuckler's rapier, getting brilliant energy enchanted on it, taking deflect arrows (as long as I have an empty hand I will fluff it being done by the blade thank you very much! lol), and call it a lightsaber xDOoh, one more thought in that regard... A character could craft a Colossal weapon (a weapon made for a Colossal character). Such a weapon would be 16x heavier than a weapon for a Medium character. He can make it masterwork. Once it is complete, assuming he is a wizard, he can make it permanently Shrunken. It instantly drops to a Medium-sized weapon, weighing 1/4000th of its original weight. Example: A greatsword for a Colossal creature would weigh 8x16 = 128 lbs. Permanency + Shrink Object makes it 0.032 lbs. Since it was nonmagical when shrunk, it can now be enchanted. The spell only checks for a valid target when it is cast. Now that the magic is present, you can make the sword magical without effecting the Shrink Object spell. So, for only 7,500 extra gold, you can have a weapon that is virtually weightless.
At least, that was the 3.5 ruling for how spellcasting worked (where it only checked for a valid target when casting). I dunno if PF updated that. I haven't seen an update for that particular 3.5 ruling.
You know, I don't know why weapons came to mind first? A wizard, powerful enough to make Shrink Item permanent, must be at least 11th level. That would mean that he is powerful enough for Fabricate. The density of steel is approximately 490 pounds per cubic foot. That means that one cubic foot would be more than enough for full plate armor, colossal-sized, to the exact measurements of the intended recipient, just increased to Colossal-size. Since full plate armor weighs 50 lbs, at colossal size, it would weigh 50x2^4 = 50x16 = 800 lbs. This means two cubic feet of steel is enough to create the armor. One Fabricate, one craft check, one Shrink Item, and Permanency, and you have a set of full plate armor weighing a tenth of a pound for a medium creature. Half that for a small creature! I can't even see that encumbering someone!!! Why would full plate armor that weighs only 1/10th of a pound encumber someone at all?
You know, I don't know why weapons came to mind first? A wizard, powerful enough to make Shrink Item permanent, must be at least 11th level. That would mean that he is powerful enough for Fabricate. The density of steel is approximately 490 pounds per cubic foot. That means that one cubic foot would be more than enough for full plate armor, colossal-sized, to the exact measurements of the intended recipient, just increased to Colossal-size. Since full plate armor weighs 50 lbs, at colossal size, it would weigh 50x2^4 = 50x16 = 800 lbs. This means two cubic feet of steel is enough to create the armor. One Fabricate, one craft check, one Shrink Item, and Permanency, and you have a set of full plate armor weighing a tenth of a pound for a medium creature. Half that for a small creature! I can't even see that encumbering someone!!! Why would full plate armor that weighs only 1/10th of a pound encumber someone at all?
Well, this only works if you go with the silly math in the PRPGCR where changing armor size from Medium to Large only multiplies weight by 2 rather than reality multiplying it by 8. But of course this is your point, since by the RAW you can make virtually weightless platemail.