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I've read and re-read the rules several times, but I'm still pretty sure I'm missing something here. In an upcoming game I'll be playing a bowyer who gets drawn into the life of an adventurer against his free will. Naturally, he'll continue to practice his craft with his down time, and eventually will begin creating magic items.
Can somebody walk me through the process, cost, and skill checks required to create a magic bow and/or some magic arrows? Your help is greatly appreciated.
If no one's gotten around to it by the time I'm done with dinner and dishes (half hour or so), I'll give it a go.
The rules are fairly straight-forward. They begin on page 548.
You need space to work, materials, cash to pay for the materials, spells, and time to put it all together.
The time is based on the cost. One day per 1,000 gp of the base cost (that's the total cost, or the sale price, or the price listed for each item in the book).
Materials usually cost half that. It doesn't matter whether you find them, steal them, or buy them, but you need raw materials of that value. In addition to the materials cost, for weapons (bows or arrows) you also need masterwork quality weapons, so you'll probably want to make those first using your craft skill, so make sure you keep that up - it will keep your material costs down a bit for the masterwork stuff.
You will either need to be a spellcaster of high enough level to learn the Craft Magical Arms and Armor feat (caster level 5) and if you want to make the powerful stuff, you'll need even more levels as a spellcaster or you will need a friendly spellcaster (or one you hire) who can help you every day until you're finished. The minimum caster level is 3 levels per +1 of the weapon, so you'll need to be a 9th level caster to make a +3 bow (or hire such a caster to work with you).
The one piece of information that seems to be missing is what spell you use for the basic enchantment, but a quick glance at the spell list tells us that you need Magic Weapon (1st level wizard spell) to give a +1 enchantment bonus, and Greater Magic Weapon (3rd level) to give +2 through +5, so make sure Transmutation is not your opposition school and make sure you learn these spells so you won't have to pay extra for them.
So let's look at an example, a simple +1 longbow. The Base Price is 75gp (longbow) + 300 gp (masterwork) + 2,000gp (+1 enchantment) = 3, 375gp total.
You have to buy the bow (375gp) or make it for half price (see the Craft skill for details). You need 1/2 of that 2,000gp in raw materials (who knows what this is - I figure it's special oils, resins, gems for decoration, gold and precious metals for inlays and such, etc.). So, if you make your own masterwork longbow, you will need 188gp for those materials +1,000gp for the enchantment materials.
Since the base price is more than 2,000gp and less than 3,000, it will take 3 days. You will need to prepare Magic Weapon each morning and cast it once each day while you work. You will need to spend 8 hours each of those 3 days working on this bow, in a workshop or other are with suitable space, tools, forge, etc.
When you're done, you need to make a skill roll to see if you succeed. This is the silly part. The DC is so ridiculously low that I think the game designers really screwed it up: 5 + the caster level. Since the minimum allowed is 3 caster levels per +1, then in this case, the DC is 8. Hopefully by the time you're 5th level and eligible for the feat, you will be able to make a DC 8 roll. You can choose to use either your Spellcraft skill or your Craft(Bows) skill, whichever you prefer.
Note: if for some reason you haven't put enough ranks into these skills and you're worried about a bad roll, don't forget Fox's Cunning and/or Owl's Wisdom - casting those can give you +2 to whichever roll you decide to attempt. It's unclear whether you would need to use these spells (well, only one of them, whichever one applies) every day, or only on the last day when you attempt the roll, so this part's probably up to the DM, but as a DM myself, I would insist on using them every day.
If you make the roll, then voila! you have your new +1 longbow. Fail, and you have wasted your time and money. Fail by 5 or more, and you just made a cursed item.
That's about it. It just goes on from there. Higher caster levels for better bows. Other spells and higher costs if you want flaming, distance, seeking, or whatever. Don't forgot to make them Composite if you want your STR damage, and that will factor into the cost to make the bow itself.
Don't forget to decide whether your weapon gives off a bright magical glow or not - it's up to you, and it doesn't change the price, but bows are really hard to hide (swords you can put in their scabbard; it's not so easy to scabbard a bow), so if it glows, everyone's going to know, including your enemies.
And finally, you can do things that break some of the rules above, like hurrying (only working 4 hours per day instead of 8), or skipping a prerequisite, like not casting the daily spell. Doing so adds +5 to the DC for each rule you cheat, and that can quickly get out of hand (after spending all this time and money, you don't want to risk blowing it with a really low roll, do you?) but it is an option - I will let you read those rules.
If no one's gotten around to it by the time I'm done with dinner and dishes (half hour or so), I'll give it a go.
Bad Zurai, bad bad!
It's been 3 hours. Musta been a whole lotta dishes...
The one piece of information that seems to be missing is what spell you use for the basic enchantment, but a quick glance at the spell list tells us that you need Magic Weapon (1st level wizard spell) to give a +1 enchantment bonus, and Greater Magic Weapon (3rd level) to give +2 through +5, so make sure Transmutation is not your opposition school and make sure you learn these spells so you won't have to pay extra for them.
I don't think you need any spells for enchantment bonus as it says in creating magic weapons rules:
"If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the weapon, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast..."
and there is no spells mentioned for enchantment bonus.
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Awesomeness
Thank you. My primary remaining question is the DC of the check at the end of the process. Can you give any more detail about that DC? Is the minimum just 3 times +1 (or +1 equivalent special ability)? Is there a point to making it a higher caster level, or is that possible even?
My character is going to be a sorcerer/fighter/arcane archer. Is hiring a wizard the only alternative to knowing the spells, aside from just dealing with a higher DC? For example, could a scroll/wand/et cetera provide the needed spell, if it had enough charges to use it every day?
My characters spells will focus on buffs and defensive magic, so spells like Magic Weapon wouldn't be totally out of place, but I'd prefer to use those slots for more potent spells, so any advice is more than welcome.
Is there a point to making it a higher caster level, or is that possible even?
For spell-completion items such as wands and scrolls, there is a point to choosing to increase the caster level beyond the minimum (as that will affect the potency of the effect).
For items such as weapons that do not have any CL-dependent effects, there is no benefit to upping the caster level.
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Just for the sake of clarity, you don't need to be a spell caster to craft many magic items. The only items that you need to be a spell caster to create, are spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items.
Any class with 5 ranks in a craft or profession can take the Master Craftsman feat. With this feat you can then use your ranks in a skill to qualify for Craft Magic Arms and Armor and/or Craft Wondrous Items. You can then create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your caster level.
So in DM_Blake's example above, a fighter could make a +1 enchanted bow if he had 5 ranks in Craft Bow (minimum) and had taken both MC and CMA&A.
Of course he would be at a disadvantage to spell caster's due to the fact that he would only be able to select MC after reaching 5th level and CMA&A at 7th level. He cannot select CMA&A at 6th level as it does not qualify as a fighter bonus feat. Meanwhile a spell caster could be making +2 enchanted weapons and armor one level earlier at 6th level. This would even out again at 9th level.
Additionally, the fighter would in all likely hood have difficulty (but not entirely impossible) meeting spell requirements for additional powers (ie flaming) in future creations. This would of course add +5 to the DC for each requirement not met. He would still be able to attempt the creation non the less.
The fighter could in fact use his MC feat to qualify for CWI and could create Boots of Striding and Springing. He would again, most likely, take a penalty to his check for not meeting the spell requirement (longstrider) and/or the skill requirement (Acrobatics).
I find the logic a little fuzzy here, as I'm not sure how crafting bows is related to creating magical boots. The RAW seems to allow this as there is no specific craft skill requirement to qualify for CWI (and CWI is all that is required to make the boots). Of course your DM could rule that you need 5 ranks in a related craft skill to the item you are creating. On the flip side, who says you need to actually craft the boots. The ones on your feet are perfectly allowable candidates for enchantment, as there is no masterwork boots requirement. *
One other thing to note. For the creation of many (most?) magic items, the caster level notation listed in the description is an absolute requirement.
"...the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level)." (page 460 under CL)
This is not a pre-requisite that can be left un-met for a +5 penalty to the DC. (At least that's how I read it...)
I'm pretty sure I am forgetting something else I thought to be relevant, but I can't remember what it is right now. Maybe it will come to me.
Cheers
* EDIT: Looking at page 553 under CWI, it would seem to say that you could not use craft bow for your skill check to create the magical boots. This still seems like a grey area though. If one were to have ranks in Craft Armor, MC and CWI, and they wanted to create the boots, could they not craft them of metal? There is nothing specific stating what kind of boots they need to be. I guess it would be up to the DM to decide which skills are "applicable" in each case.
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My primary remaining question is the DC of the check at the end of the process. Can you give any more detail about that DC? Is the minimum just 3 times +1 (or +1 equivalent special ability)?
The skill check DC (either Spellcraft or relevant Craft skill) is equal to:
5 + CL of the item + 5 for each requirement not met + 5 if the time is cut in half
So as to your bow +1 example the DC would be 5 + 3 + 0 (no req) + 5 (if rushed)
for a total of either 8 or 13. (Providing you had already previously successfully crafted or procured a masterwork bow.)
Which is actually what DM_Blake wrote in his post above. I just cleaned it up a little. :)
Is there a point to making it a higher caster level, or is that possible even?
Already answered by Jabor above.
My character is going to be a sorcerer/fighter/arcane archer. Is hiring a wizard the only alternative to knowing the spells, aside from just dealing with a higher DC? For example, could a scroll/wand/et cetera provide the needed spell, if it had enough charges to use it every day?
Yes you can use alternate methods here. Some of which you already touched on.
My characters spells will focus on buffs and defensive magic, so spells like Magic Weapon wouldn't be totally out of place, but I'd prefer to use those slots for more potent spells, so any advice is more than welcome.
I agree with Cormac that you don't need any specific spell to grant just +X enchantments. (Unless DM_Blake has found something I'm not aware of) :)
Cheers
If no one's gotten around to it by the time I'm done with dinner and dishes (half hour or so), I'll give it a go.Bad Zurai, bad bad!
It's been 3 hours. Musta been a whole lotta dishes...
Yeah, I forgot about this thread :( The forum didn't mark it as having a post from me in it so when I skimmed over the thread list, I didn't see it.
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Curses, looks like the post I just tried to make was my first run-in with the infamous Post Eating Monster that lurks these parts. Oh well, here goes.
My only remaining question is the differences and similarities of upgrading, say, a +2 bow to a +2 speed bow, versus creating the +2 speed bow from a normal masterwork bow.
As far as I can discern, the only difference is cost and time required. Both of those appear to just be the cost/time needed for the resulting item, minus the cost/time needed for the original item. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
The other oddity is, what if I made a +2 speed bow without supplying the haste component, increasing the DC by 5. When I go to upgrade my +2 speed bow to a +3 speed bow, does that increase of 5 to the DC remain? My instincts tell me yes, but I'd rather be certain.
The one piece of information that seems to be missing is what spell you use for the basic enchantment, but a quick glance at the spell list tells us that you need Magic Weapon (1st level wizard spell) to give a +1 enchantment bonus, and Greater Magic Weapon (3rd level) to give +2 through +5, so make sure Transmutation is not your opposition school and make sure you learn these spells so you won't have to pay extra for them.
I don't think you need any spells for enchantment bonus as it says in creating magic weapons rules:
"If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the weapon, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast..."
and there is no spells mentioned for enchantment bonus.
You may be right; I hadn't thought of it that way.
Still, it seems to me that since the exact spell(s) exist, they ought to be used.
I mean, it's not like flaming swords really shoot fireballs, but you can craft one by using a Fireball spell. That is very inexact; somehow, by burning (no pun intended) a Fireball every day while making a sword, your sword gains the ability to ignite, but it doesn't gain the ability to cast Fireballs.
On the other hand, Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon do exactly what the weapon's enchantment bonus does.
So, while your interpretation may be right, and the rules seem to agree that it's right, it still seems wrong to me.
But, since this thread is about rules and not about houserules, I'll retract the part about needed either of those spells - apparently all the rules require is that you're a caster of a high enough level.
Just for the sake of clarity, you don't need to be a spell caster to craft many magic items. The only items that you need to be a spell caster to create, are spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items.
Any class with 5 ranks in a craft or profession can take the Master Craftsman feat. With this feat you can then use your ranks in a skill to qualify for Craft Magic Arms and Armor and/or Craft Wondrous Items. You can then create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your caster level.
So in DM_Blake's example above, a fighter could make a +1 enchanted bow if he had 5 ranks in Craft Bow (minimum) and had taken both MC and CMA&A.
CMA&A? Really? I know it was a wordy post, but you could have just copied/pasted from where you spelled it out...
Unfortunately, your point here is mistaken. You cannot even take the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat unless you are a spellcaster of at least level 5 - it's a prerequisite for the feat, and having the feat is required (you cannot craft the items without the feat by adding +5 to the DC).
So, unless the fighter in your example here is also a caster of at least caster level 5, he will not be able to take the feat or craft the items.
Unfortunately, your point here is mistaken. You cannot even take the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat unless you are a spellcaster of at least level 5 - it's a prerequisite for the feat
From the PRD:
Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.
My only remaining question is the differences and similarities of upgrading, say, a +2 bow to a +2 speed bow, versus creating the +2 speed bow from a normal masterwork bow.
As far as I can discern, the only difference is cost and time required. Both of those appear to just be the cost/time needed for the resulting item, minus the cost/time needed for the original item. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
You are quite correct.
The base price of a +2 bow costs is 8,000gp (assuming you provide the masterwork bow yourself). This means it costs you 4,000gp to craft it and will take 8 days.
The base price of a +2 bow of speed is 50,000gp. This means it costs you 25,000gp and takes 50 days.
If you already have the +2 bow and you just want to add the speed, you need to cover the remaining 21,000gp and it will take you 42 days.
One interesting note: To make a +5 bow you need to be 15th level. To make a +2 bow of speed, which is equivalent to +5, you only need to be 7th level. Kinda sweet; now all you need is 25,000gp.
The other oddity is, what if I made a +2 speed bow without supplying the haste component, increasing the DC by 5. When I go to upgrade my +2 speed bow to a +3 speed bow, does that increase of 5 to the DC remain? My instincts tell me yes, but I'd rather be certain.
Actually, no, I don't think you would need to keep casting your Haste spell, or worry about not casting it.
The "of speed" is already there. When you decide to upgrade to +3 bow of speed, you're only upgrading the enchantment, so there is no need to cast Haste or increase the DC if you don't cast it.
So no spells required - you just have to be level 9. And you need to come up with the extra 11,000gp to pay for the upgrade, and the 22 days you'll need to do the work.
Unfortunately, your point here is mistaken. You cannot even take the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat unless you are a spellcaster of at least level 5 - it's a prerequisite for the featFrom the PRD:
Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.
Ahh, yes, thanks, I had not considered that feat.
Thanks for pointing that out.
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CMA&A? Really? I know it was a wordy post, but you could have just copied/pasted from where you spelled it out...
This is what you complain about? Really? ;)
I know you that you yourself use acronyms (RAW for instance) and also like the wordy posts (which I read in there entirety I might add)...
...and in the world of the internet written word and forums alike where many people can't be bothered to spell out words or phrases all the time, or spell them correctly for that matter (l8tr and kewl), you single me out? :)
Besides all that, how could you miss the Master Craftsmen feat when I mentioned it at the very beginning of my post? I hadn't even used the offending acronym yet. :)
Just in case you missed all the smiley faces (or stopped reading my post after the first sentence) :) , I'm just giving you a little good natured ribbing.
Cheers
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Anyways. I agree with everything else DM_Blake has written so far. I have not checked the math myself, but I trust his calculations, so I see no need.
The only thing I would add, to keep in mind, when figuring out the cost of magic items, is that if you add powers to items that occupy body slots, the cost is 50% more than normal for that which you add.
For example, upgrading your bow works exactly like DM_Blake stated above, as bows do not occupy body slots. You merely pay the difference between what you have and what you want to have.
However, if you were wanting to add the power of invisibility to an existing ring of protection +1, you would pay 150% of the cost of making a stand alone ring of invisibility. Make sense?
I hope that we have been helpful in answering your questions.
Cheers
CMA&A? Really? I know it was a wordy post, but you could have just copied/pasted from where you spelled it out...
This is what you complain about? Really? ;)
I know you that you yourself use acronyms (RAW for instance) and also like the wordy posts (which I read in there entirety I might add)...
...and in the world of the internet written word and forums alike where many people can't be bothered to spell out words or phrases all the time, or spell them correctly for that matter (l8tr and kewl), you single me out? :)Besides all that, how could you miss the Master Craftsmen feat when I mentioned it at the very beginning of my post? I hadn't even used the offending acronym yet. :)
Just in case you missed all the smiley faces (or stopped reading my post after the first sentence) :) , I'm just giving you a little good natured ribbing.
Cheers
No, no, I hadn't missed your reference to the Master Craftsman feat, I had simply overlooked its value to non-casters.
Having no crafters in any of our 3 ongoing campaigns, I've had no reason to scrutinize the feat too closely, and with a myriad other things to learn in the new rules, this feat had escaped my attention.
I will say, now that it has been brought to my attention, that I see great implications in allowing non-casters to craft magic items. For one, magic items might justifiably become more common. More common means greater supply. Greater supply with stable demand means decreased cost. Suddenly I see the streets of Westcrown lined with vendors hawking magical doodads for mere coppers above the cost needed to create them. Well, maybe silvers...
As for abbreviations, there are some that are widely known, conventions as it were, and others that are merely cryptic. IMNSHO. YMMV, FWIW.
But kudos to you for taking the plunge and beginning what might become the next convetion...
;)