My post is regarding the Iron Bands of Binding, a relatively powerful 1/day item in the 3.5 rules. I am new to Pathfinder but have been playing 3.5 for as long as it has been around. I don't have the Pathfinder RPG Core Rule Book and am going off the Pathfinder RPG Reference Document description of the item (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ under magic items/wondrous items/iron bands of binding). It seems that, beside its name, this item has undergone one other important change. In addition to a DC 30 strength check, and a DC 30 Escape Artist check, a DC 30 "combat maneuvers check" will also free you from the item. If I understand the new CM system right this would work off of a character's CMD which is 10 + BAB + STR mod + DEX mod + SSM. If I am right so far, however, there is no check to be made. Isn’t CMD a static # like AC, so what is a "combat maneuver check"? Would it instead add your CMB (BAB + STR mod + SSM) but it doesn’t seem like that would fit, it's not an attack.
The second part of this post may render the first irrelevant. Is the inclusion of the "combat maneuver check" legitimate in this item's description? It doesn't make sense to me that it would be. I say this for several reasons:
1) Lower on the page there is a Rope of Entanglement which does virtually the same thing but with lower DC's of only 20. This item does not include anything about a "combat maneuver check".
2) If it functioned off of CMB, why have both a STR check DC 30 and a CMB check DC 30? No one would use only a STR check when they could add their STR, BAB, and any possible size modifier to the same check.
3) If it functioned off of CMD, the item becomes almost entirely useless by mid to high levels (which would make sense for some weaker items but this is a 26,000gp item, a character wouldn’t be expected to have this before mid to high levels of play). A fighter of 15th lvl would have a CMD of 10 + BAB 15 + STR mod (which would probably be considerably high I would say at least a +5) + DEX mod (maybe not so high but even a +1 would help) + SSM = 30 at a minimum (probably more) which means they would have no effort to get free. A STR check alone would make this very difficult to escape but not impossible, however, a CMD check makes the item useless against any fighter of mid to high lvl. Even a wizard of 15 lvl would have a CMD of at least +7 but could be higher if they have a STR mod, DEX mod, or SSM. So, if this is the case your 26,000gp, one shot per day item is relatively easy to get around, if not completely useless.
Ultimately I don't think it makes sense and would like to know firstly if this is a legitimate rule and not a typo and secondly if it is legitimate, how is the "combat maneuver check" to be applied?
Thank you in advance.
It does seem a little silly to have both a CMB check and a Str check, although in theory you could have a creature with CMB penalty for size that is larger than its BAB.
It does seem a little silly to have both a CMB check and a Str check, although in theory you could have a creature with CMB penalty for size that is larger than its BAB.
The bands are only usable on a creature of Large or smaller size. So while it is possible for a creature to have negatives to their CMB or CMD that are larger than the bonuses they would add, it still seems that those instances would be few and far between, unless you plan on hunting tiny creatures. But even in that case it doesn’t make sense to me to give a DC 30 STR check and a DC 30 Escape Artist check, which are both hard checks to make even for most high level enemies, and then throw in there a DC 30 CM check, which any way you add it (CMB or CMD) seems like a pretty easy check to make when you progress into advanced levels. It seems to make this item useless, or at the very least definitely not worth the money to buy it; which, at 26,000gp, you probably wouldn’t even think about buying it until you are at a level where it would be useless against the things you are fighting.
I thought that the CM reference might have been a copy/paste error due to some grappling reference in the original 3.5 description since grappling is now under combat maneuvers, but I looked it up and I believe the only ways out in original 3.5 were either a DC 30 STR check or a DC 30 EA check.
Note that a successful DC30 Strength check not only allows the target to escape, but it also destroys the item. The other options just let the target wriggle free.
The combat manuver check would use CMB vs the target DC (30). You never use CMD in a roll. As you said it's a static 'target' value like AC.
Note that a successful DC30 Strength check not only allows the target to escape, but it also destroys the item. The other options just let the target wriggle free.
The combat manuver check would use CMB vs the target DC (30). You never use CMD in a roll. As you said it's a static 'target' value like AC.
I realized that a STR check alone would break the bands, I just don’t know why someone would want to even attempt a STR check when they could use their CMB (unless they had massive negatives to CMB as was mentioned above). However, I guess an opponent using their CMB against a DC 30 still isn't terrible. I was a little disturbed when I thought it could be CMD (as the description did not clearly spell out CMB and I am not familiar enough with the rules yet, today is my first day reading through the PFRPG RD). Still it seems like even with the addition of the CMB escape check, it seriously diminished the power of this weapon, perhaps it was intentional. By lvl 15 you would have, at "best", only a 50/50 shot of holding any combat/str oriented class, and a moderately higher chance of holding skirmishers like rogues (unless they have the Agile Maneuvers feat) and rangers or hybrid classes like Cleric, druid, etc. Wizards and sorcerers would be your best bet with the item now, but they can simply dimension door out of it so it's hit or miss with them as well.
Thanks for the clarification on CMB vs. CMD.
Aha, I think I found the reason for the STR check (beyond the coolness factor of succeeding in a 'I can break these cuffs!' moment).
Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
It's not explictly stated in the item, but I would treat the target of the Iron Bands as being tied up. Thus unless their CMB is +10 or more, they can't escape UNLESS they make a DC30 STR check. Now, I know what you're thinking, what are the chances that they can make a DC30 check with only their STR if they're so low in level that STR+BAB+Size is less than 10? The answer to that question is at least 1 in 20, since a natural 20 on an ability check is an auto-success.
Though now that I've said that, and even though that's the way we've always played, can someone confirm? I know that Skill checks are NOT auto-successes on a natural 20, and I know that attack rolls and saving throws are.
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since a natural 20 on an ability check is an auto-success.
Rules quote please, as natural 20 = success used to be only on attacks only and I didn't see Pathfinder adding more auto success in my reading so far. So a 20 isn't an auto success in grapples, trips, disarm, sunder, bull rush, overrun, skills, concentration, etc.
since a natural 20 on an ability check is an auto-success.Rules quote please, as natural 20 = success used to be only on attacks only and I didn't see Pathfinder adding more auto success in my reading so far. So a 20 isn't an auto success in grapples, trips, disarm, sunder, bull rush, overrun, skills, concentration, etc.
That's why I said I wasn't sure. :)
Reviewing the SRD it seems you're right. Natural 20 is an auto success on attack rolls and saving throws only. I'll have to inform my DM. Whoops.
Hmmm... all of a sudden, CON checks to stabilize seem a little deadlier...
since a natural 20 on an ability check is an auto-success.Rules quote please, as natural 20 = success used to be only on attacks only and I didn't see Pathfinder adding more auto success in my reading so far. So a 20 isn't an auto success in grapples, trips, disarm, sunder, bull rush, overrun, skills, concentration, etc.
In this case it seems I am back to where I started. I just don’t understand the addition of the CMB to this item unless it was an intentional move to make the bands easier to escape from.
But IMO a 26,000gp weapon that is usable only 1/day should probably be a powerful weapon not easily escapable.
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In this case it seems I am back to where I started. I just don’t understand the addition of the CMB to this item unless it was an intentional move to make the bands easier to escape from.
How do you figure?
CMB is basically a STR check (with some penalties/bonuses based on size.)
How does it make it so much "easier" to escape from?
In this case it seems I am back to where I started. I just don’t understand the addition of the CMB to this item unless it was an intentional move to make the bands easier to escape from.How do you figure?
CMB is basically a STR check (with some penalties/bonuses based on size.)
How does it make it so much "easier" to escape from?
I agree that it's not as easy as Shadowlord thinks, but you do get to include your BAB to CMB checks. That means that your average strength-based martial character has a shot at escaping the Iron Bindings around level 5-6.
Frankly, a dexterous Escape Artist can get out even earlier. A character with an 18 Dex and 3 ranks in Escape Artist (assuming it's a class skill) gets the minimum +10 required to make the attempt. If you've got 20 minutes to spare you can take 20 and get out no problem.
I could be over reacting a little. But to answer:
1) CMB is not only STR + Size mod, it is als +BAB, so like stated a 5th lvl STR based Melee class would have a chance. But a 15th lvl fighter would have a 50% chance each around of making it. Most other classes follow closely behind. So I would ask you if you would spend 26,000gp on an item that is usable only 1/day and has a exponentially decreasing chance of holding anyone for more than one round as you gain levels?
If you want an example of how much easier it would be with a CMB I will demonstrate. EX: 15th lvl fighter with a STR of 20, medium size. Before he had to make a DC 30 STR check to esape, well even if he rolled a 20 he is boned because he only has 25, not making a 30, no way. But his CMB is BAB + STR bonus + SSM which for the very same fighter is 15 + 5 + 0 = 20. So it goes from an impossible role, to a 50/50 shot each round. Like I said dramatically dives the power of the item. Perhaps that was an intentional thing though as they are pretty mean. (Or were pretty mean.)
2) Yes, escape artist makes it infinitely easier to escape them, that is, IF you have ranks in it. I have played many rogues and never once put ranks in EA, and never once have I regretted that, as, never have I needed it. If I got hit with the Iron Bands I am sure I would regret that choice with most rogue builds, but as my current build can use dimension door it’s really not all that troublesome. Rest assured though, if I tossed the bands on someone they would not have time to take 20, they would have time to make a single check before a coup de grace. So I would ask you the same, would you spend that kind of money on an item that is only going to get dramatically less useful as you progress in lvl?
The addition of a BAB to the roll may seem like a small thing but by mid level it makes the item infinitely escapable at mid to high lvls.
I guess when I sit and do the math it really isnt "that weak", they are probably still worth the 26,000gp. But I stand by my statement that the item has been dramatically weakened.