Reading through some of the threads and some of the arguments about how attacks during a fight are handled, I went back and logically broke down how our group handles attacks and our interpretation of how these are handled. The attack model as I understand it would go something like this:
1 - Choose target(s) - Assuming Full Round Attack
2 - Choose Style of attack (Two Handed, Two Weapon, Weapon and Shield, Single Weapon, Ranged, Spell, Other)
3 - Choose Primary Weapon (Main hand melee, main hand ranged, Spell, Other)
4 - Choose Off Hand Weapon (Off hand melee, off hand ranged, N/A, Other)
5 - Choose Attack Maneuver (Attack, Trip, Disarm, Sunder, etc.)
6 - Apply Feats (Power Attack, Cleave, Manyshot, Rapidshot, Imp Trip, Imp Sunder, etc)
7 - Apply bonuses and penalties
8 - Attack
9 - All AoO are applied with the selected main hand weapon until the start of the character's turn next round
I assume that some groups use a similar setup. It seems that there are other models in place for other groups, I was wondering what those models are and why they're used (never know when I'll find one I like better). What are the advantages and disadvantages to your model? Any points of discussion on the subject are welcome.
Ours is more like:
1 - Decide standard action or full action for attack.
2 - Assume default attack. Each character writes down all benefits for default attack and has adjustments worked in.
3 - If not default attack, or if any other effects are applied, adjust default numbers.
4 - Choose Attack Maneuver if appropriate
5 - Attack
9 - All AoO are applied with the selected main hand weapon unless the character changes weapons
1 - Choose target(s) - Assuming Full Round Attack
1 - Decide standard action or full action for attack.
There is no reason to make these decisions until after your first attack. You don't need to assign targets or declare a full attack beforehand. This seems to be a common misconception. In fact the rules clearly state otherwise:
You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.
After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out[.]
1 - Choose target(s) - Assuming Full Round Attack1 - Decide standard action or full action for attack.There is no reason to make these decisions until after your first attack. You don't need to assign targets or declare a full attack beforehand. This seems to be a common misconception. In fact the rules clearly state otherwise:
You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out[.]
Yeah, I did that to simplify the logical process rather than adding in decisions about whether I want to make a full round attack or attack once and move(etc)or not.
You don't need to assign targets or declare a full attack beforehand. This seems to be a common misconception. In fact the rules clearly state otherwise:
You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out[.]
I don't think so. The rules do state that first you must declare that you are using a full-attack and after the first attack you can decide replacing your attacks for a move action. Differences:
- Two-Weapon Fighting. If you don't decide to make a full-attack, you wouldn't take a -2 in your first attack.- Rapid Shot. Same as above.
- Vital Strike. It applies the damage only if you make the standard Attack Action. If you don't have to declare Full-Attack, you could attack and if you hit, apply Vital Strike; if you don't hit, you would go for Full-Attack.
- Whirlwind Attack. If you don't have to choose Full-Attack at the beginnig of your turn you could make your first attack, and if it drops your enemy, continue with Full-Attack+Whirlwind.
I'm sure there are other.
I'm afraid he was quoting the rules pretty much verbatim. If you're using a regular old full attack (not TWF or anything) you can take your first attack roll then decide to either move or take the rest of your attacks. It's kind of a Schrodinger's Cat situation. That first attack roll happens either as a Standard Action or during a Full-Round Action but you can't tell which until the player does something else.
Weird, huh?
I encountered this exact issue when creating my Maptool Framework.
Certain abilities demand a commitment to a full attack action before the first attack roll. Rather than duplicate code, I just enfored this as the order of operations for all players. That said, I allow my players a little flexibility.
Vital strike is a standard action. Simply making the attempt rules out taking a full round attack.
And likewise for the new version of Cleave.
...It's kind of a Schrodinger's Cat situation. That first attack roll happens either as a Standard Action or during a Full-Round Action...
Then you mean
"It's kind of a Schrodinger's Cat situation. That first attack roll happens as a Standard Action AND a Full-Round Action..."
Then you mean
"It's kind of a Schrodinger's Cat situation. That first attack roll happens as a Standard Action AND a Full-Round Action..."
Heh, true, I stand corrected. : ]
Vital strike is a standard action. Simply making the attempt rules out taking a full round attack.
mmm... No. Vital Strike is made as part of a Attack Action, which is of course an standard action, but it's not a different action per se. Cleave, on the other hand, is a different action.
If you don't have to declare a full-attack action, after the roll is made, you could apply Vital Strike if you chose not taking the rest of the attacks, as it means that your first attack is an Attack Action.
Anyway, the rules are rather clear. At the beginning of your turn you have to declare the action you are taking. You can declare an Attack Action or you can declare a Full-Attack Action. But if you chose Full-Attack, you can take a move after the first attack instead of taking the remaining attacks. That, in my opinion, does not mean that your first attack was an Attack Action.
Reading through some of the threads and some of the arguments about how attacks during a fight are handled, I went back and logically broke down how our group handles attacks and our interpretation of how these are handled. The attack model as I understand it would go something like this:
1 - Choose target(s) - Assuming Full Round Attack
You chose targets just before rolling the attack roll. If for instance you are using a full-attack action, you chose targets as you go and can change targets in the middle of the full-attack action.
I.e. you can attack one target until you are satisfied, and then change target all during the same full-attack.2 - Choose Style of attack (Two Handed, Two Weapon, Weapon and Shield, Single Weapon, Ranged, Spell, Other)
3 - Choose Primary Weapon (Main hand melee, main hand ranged, Spell, Other)
4 - Choose Off Hand Weapon (Off hand melee, off hand ranged, N/A, Other)
5 - Choose Attack Maneuver (Attack, Trip, Disarm, Sunder, etc.)
6 - Apply Feats (Power Attack, Cleave, Manyshot, Rapidshot, Imp Trip, Imp Sunder, etc)
7 - Apply bonuses and penalties
8 - Attack
See comment above.
9 - All AoO are applied with the selected main hand weapon until the start of the character's turn next round
I assume that some groups use a similar setup. It seems that there are other models in place for other groups, I was wondering what those models are and why they're used (never know when I'll find one I like better). What are the advantages and disadvantages to your model? Any points of discussion on the subject are welcome.
You chose targets just before rolling the attack roll. If for instance you are using a full-attack action, you chose targets as you go and can change targets in the middle of the full-attack action.
I.e. you can attack one target until you are satisfied, and then change target all during the same full-attack.
You are of course correct, I really tried to stay away from something like a flow chart for this, lol, although that would have served the purpose better.