Has anyone else noticed that most of the "broken" PRCs are the ones designed for arcane casters?
When you make a PRC class for any other class there is a process of you give up power X to get ability Y. When you make a PRC for a wizard the only thing they have is spell casting progression and 4 bonus feats.
If you loose much casting progression they are not a very good arcane PRC. But if you give them something without taking power away it is broken because we all know that the wizard class is balanced as it is.
You lose 2-4 levels multiclassing. You combine classes to get a different flavor. Some people like it.
Has anyone else noticed that most of the "broken" PRCs are the ones designed for arcane casters?
Or sometimes divine casters: Radiant Servant of Pelor was a clear case of "give up nothing, and get a big package of benefits for free." But, yeah, things like Initiate of the Seven Veils and the ever-popular Abjurant Cheesewhore top the list for overpowered abuse.
You're right, for the most part. Pathfinder did a decent job fixing this. Now you lose more than just familiar advancement and maybe a couple feats. You now lose (I think) those nifty wizard school ability advancement and bloodline spells and advancement. A cleric now loses progression in channel energy for any PrCs in 3.5 that didn't advance Turn/Rebuke unless your DM's a jerk then you always loose it. Druid always lost a lot.
Arcane PrCs in 3.5 that didn't interrupt spell progression seems like a patch to fix the fact that spell-casters didn't really get anything besides spells. Thankfully, that's not the case anymore.
Ur-Priest. Chameleon.
I'm definitely in agreement that prestige classes that don't cost any casting at all are major overpowered.
This kinda depends on what package the PRC grants. If you're a Wizard you won’t get the bonus Feats or other school powers, and if you're a Sorcerer your bloodline abilities will not improve.
Also, you have to look at the entry requirements, some of which require you to take horrible Feats to qualify.
I think these two points take out many of the "full-caster" PRC's, although I concede that there are a few left that are a little overpowered.
I'm definitely in agreement that prestige classes that don't cost any casting at all are major overpowered.
So Loremaster is overpowered?
I'm definitely in agreement that prestige classes that don't cost any casting at all are major overpowered.So Loremaster is overpowered?
Honestly... yes. The feats are things a mage would likely take anyways (half elf has even more reason to go into it) with the exception of the Skill Focus feat, which can be replaced immediately with a bonus feat from your first secret (if you want toughness it's there, a bonus feat is also available). Also you can gain a +2 to all your save throws that stacks with the feats you might normally take (if you are paranoid). Also you can gain a straight +1 to all attack rolls (better than weapon focus) and another "Dodge" feat as well.
That's the equivalent to five bonus feats in addition to the lore feature.
However this still isn't really any worse than any other prestige class, and IMO is something that is to be expected to a certain extent.
which can be replaced immediately with a bonus feat from your first secret
Only if you have a permanent 24 intelligence at 8th level, which is utterly impossible using standard races and character generation rules. You don't just get to choose any of the secrets you want.
Also, most wizards I have seen played don't take three metamagic and/or item creation feats in their first 7 levels, even with Pathfinder's improved feat progression. Wizards especially don't need item creation feats as much anymore because they get to ignore those feats for their bonded item (and if you're gonna go into a PrC, bonded items are superior to familiars because familiars aren't advanced by most PrCs). So you're going to take 3 metamagic feats and a skill focus for your first four feats, even though the metamagics are likely to be quite useless for some time to come?
Plus, the secrets really aren't that special. Don't forget you're losing wizard bonus feats and school special abilities by going into a prestige class. Just eyeballing it, the secrets are roughly the same power level as the bonus feats and school abilities. That leaves the Lore ability which isn't "powerful" so much as it is "versatile".
which can be replaced immediately with a bonus feat from your first secretOnly if you have a permanent 24 intelligence at 8th level, which is utterly impossible using standard races and character generation rules. You don't just get to choose any of the secrets you want.
Human Int 18 to start racial bonus to Int, both level adjustments and a headband of intellect +2 = 'permanent' 24 intelligence...
See also the availability of the toughness feat. The wizard starts with one item creation feat, scribe scroll, and craft wondrous item is an easy choice, add in Extend spell, still spell, or silent spell (all good choices) and you are good to go. four feats one of which you get anyways, means three need taking out of 5 feats you can take (counting the level 5 wizard's bonus feat) and that's not counting a human or half elf (which has to take a skill focus anyways!).
You lose exactly 3 feats by not sticking with wizard (10,15,20) and gain the equivalent of 5 of which 2 are actual feats (toughness and one choosen).
It doesn't matter if they aren't "special", that's not the point. They are fully the equal of the feats they match with and stack with those feats too. In addition to (by level 10) a +5 to all knowledge checks, and we all know "Knowledge is Power". Greater Lore is the equal of a permanent none magical identify spell being active on you, and finally you can use the True lore ability at tenth level, still leaving you room to get the second class power of the wizard, and while you don't get the cap stone you still get plenty.
Getting more than you pay in on top of what you already would have gotten is more powerful than the "base" which could mean "over powered"
personally I don't see it as a 'huge' thing, just a technicality that should be realized.
Eldritch Knight is the same way. Full casting, Full BAB, and it counts towards fighter feats, in addition to three bonus feats and a good cap stone. That is more powerful than a fighter 10/wizard 10 would be. But it's still not a huge difference IMO and nothing to really fret over, just something to be noted.
Getting more than you pay in on top of what you already would have gotten is more powerful than the "base" which could mean "over powered"
No. If you get no net gain from a prestige class, then there's literally no reason to take it. It's underpowered, useless, and a waste of space. Thus, having a net gain is not a sign of being overpowered. The magnitude of the net gain is what matters, not the presence of one.
Has anyone else noticed that most of the "broken" PRCs are the ones designed for arcane casters?Or sometimes divine casters: Radiant Servant of Pelor was a clear case of "give up nothing, and get a big package of benefits for free." But, yeah, things like Initiate of the Seven Veils and the ever-popular Abjurant Cheesewhore top the list for overpowered abuse.
How was the Abjurant Champion overpowered?
Getting more than you pay in on top of what you already would have gotten is more powerful than the "base" which could mean "over powered"No. If you get no net gain from a prestige class, then there's literally no reason to take it. It's underpowered, useless, and a waste of space. Thus, having a net gain is not a sign of being overpowered. The magnitude of the net gain is what matters, not the presence of one.
See again my earlier posts. I never claimed this was a huge deal. In fact in both posts I stated it wasn't. Simply that it was an improvement over the base classes and therefore could qualify in the "OMG why DIDN'T you take it!" area. Not that I see it that way but on the technical level it is more powerful than the base class is.
I don't think that all prestige classes must increase power or be a waste and not worth taking. They do need to offer something that is non-standard for a 'regular' multiclass or single class character, however that doesn't mean a power increase is mandatory with it, especially when the prestige class is so easy to enter.
The way I see it we have two types of prestige classes:
"Elite" classes that are harder to get into but offer more power than normal (hence why they are 'elite') and "alternate" classes that either offer a fairly 'generic' concept to work with or take a mundane thing and turn it on it's side (examples would be assassin, Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, Loremaster) these are generally easier to enter, but offer little or no increase in over all power (or at least in theory shouldn't offer such) while still giving valid options for a method of adventuring.
How was the Abjurant Champion overpowered?Has anyone else noticed that most of the "broken" PRCs are the ones designed for arcane casters?Or sometimes divine casters: Radiant Servant of Pelor was a clear case of "give up nothing, and get a big package of benefits for free." But, yeah, things like Initiate of the Seven Veils and the ever-popular Abjurant Cheesewhore top the list for overpowered abuse.
It gives a lot of stuff for no cost.
A 'normal' caster can enter it at 11th level without doing anything special. For doing so they get:
1. Quickened Abjurant spells up to 3rd level for free.
2. Increase in capability with armoring spells.
3. Free extending of Abjurant spells.
4. Full BAB d10 HD
5. Full casting
6. A means to buff themselves every round.
In all ways a Wizard 10/ Abjurant Champion 5 is better than a Wizard 15. No questions asked.
How was the Abjurant Champion overpowered?Has anyone else noticed that most of the "broken" PRCs are the ones designed for arcane casters?Or sometimes divine casters: Radiant Servant of Pelor was a clear case of "give up nothing, and get a big package of benefits for free." But, yeah, things like Initiate of the Seven Veils and the ever-popular Abjurant Cheesewhore top the list for overpowered abuse.
Take a moment to look at a wizard, say 15th level. Now imagine what happens when you replace 5 levels with Abjurant Champion. Your wizard lost one bonus feat and benefits for his familiar. In exchange, he got several points of BAB, d10s for hp, his abjurations now were longer-lasting, sometimes quicker, sometimes gave him more AC, and a slew of other abilities. For the cost of one feat and abilities that may not matter, the wizard gained some useful abilities.
Also, look at the prerequisites for the Abj Champion vs. Eldritch Knight, Bladesinger, Arcane Archer, and Spellsword; my wizard/bladesinger met the prereqs for Abjurant Champion en route to those of the bladesinger, and could gain all those powers earlier than entering the bladesinger. Generally, that's why the class is considered overpowered: too easy to get into, gives too much and takes next to nothing.
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Human Int 18 to start racial bonus to Int, both level adjustments and a headband of intellect +2 = 'permanent' 24 intelligence...
Headbands aren't permanent. They're temporary bonuses that can be disarmed with a combat manuever or sundered. I had a wizard who spent all his starting gold on a Headband of Intellect +6 and lost it in the first encounter. He WISHED it was permanent, for that much money spent.
Headbands aren't permanent. They're temporary bonuses that can be disarmed with a combat manuever or sundered. I had a wizard who spent all his starting gold on a Headband of Intellect +6 and lost it in the first encounter. He WISHED it was permanent, for that much money spent.
Human Int 18 to start racial bonus to Int, both level adjustments and a headband of intellect +2 = 'permanent' 24 intelligence...
Incorrect, they count as permanent after wearing for 24 hours. If removed you would lose the benefit until you could gain back the bonus again, however it still counted as permanent at the point you could take the class ability.
Can't help your specific problem, however some sovereign glue will prevent disarming, and a "make whole" spell will solve the sundering, and the Hardening spell is always your friend.
Prestidigitation can "clean" too, for those curious on how you take a bath or what not without taking off your headband.
I don't think that all prestige classes must increase power or be a waste and not worth taking.
I didn't say anything about having to increase power. I said a net gain. In fact, if you'd read what I wrote, you'd see that I consider the Loremaster fine despite specifically saying that it doesn't offer a gain in power, merely in versatility. Another option for net gain are in roleplaying terms (I'm a member of the Purple Dragon Knights!).
As for the rest, the reason we got into this argument is because I was responding to a post that stated that every full-casting PrC was "majorly overpowered".
My memory had failed me. For some reason I was thinking the BAB was 7 and you needed martial weapon proficiency, when it is only one martial weapon. I dont have any munchkins in my group right now, but just in case I find one later I may have to modify the entry requirements.
I don't think that all prestige classes must increase power or be a waste and not worth taking.I didn't say anything about having to increase power. I said a net gain. In fact, if you'd read what I wrote, you'd see that I consider the Loremaster fine despite specifically saying that it doesn't offer a gain in power, merely in versatility. Another option for net gain are in roleplaying terms (I'm a member of the Purple Dragon Knights!).
As for the rest, the reason we got into this argument is because I was responding to a post that stated that every full-casting PrC was "majorly overpowered".
And I used the word powerful. Your "net gain" is apparently not equal to my "powerful" yet you used the words synonymously first, I simply continued on that path.
However you seem intent on arguing over a point that we actually agree on so I'll let you have at it.
Your "net gain" is apparently not equal to my "powerful" yet you used the words synonymously first, I simply continued on that path.
Really? Please show me where. I never said any such thing.
Yes Zurai, you caught me with the loremaster one. Thanks.
Loremaster's got some nice stuff to it, but I'd hardly call it overpowered. Then again, it's never been a very appealing prestige class to me either.
I'd rather have a prestige class that gives up a little casting, either in the entry requirements or in the casting progression, and significantly changes the way the character develops mechanically.
Examples include: Malconvoker, Eldritch Knight, Recaster... you get the idea.
I agree with you, honestly. I just wanted to point out the folly of painting with too broad a brush :) I'd never be able to play a Loremaster, myself. Too bland and boring. I like PrCs that are full of flavor; I'm actually playing a character angling toward Harrower from the PF Campaign Setting (which is hardly a powerful class at all) because it fits perfectly with the character's "gypsy fortuneteller" style image.
I'm not too fond of PrCs that totally eliminate class features that you've already gotten and start you over again. The Blighter, Blackguard and Ur-Priest are good examples of PrCs that should've been base classes.
Ur-Priest is just a great example of a broken class almost no matter how you look at it.
A good example of a broken prestige class that's only broken because of a lack of playtesting is the Planar Shepherd from one of the Eberron books. At first glance it seems rather tame, but one of the primary class abilities lets you surround yourself with an extra-planar "bubble" that mimics the traits of whichever plane you choose for the class. Including time. Some planes function at 10 times the speed of the prime material ... thus allowing the Planar Shepherd druid to act 10 times to each of his enemies' 1 action. Utterly broken, but easily fixed with playtesting (just make the time trait not carry over into the "bubble").
Planar Sheepard (time abuse)
Incantrix (persist abuse and pre-epic feat)
Mistyc Theurge with Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord
Initiate of the Seven Veils (defense)
Malconvoker (summoning balors or pit fiends)
Swiftblade (the only Prc that can lost caster levels)
Abjurant Champion (not so broken, but it's better than 5 levels of wizard)
But there are others like:
Ranger / Scout with swifthunter feat
Figther / Barbarian / Frenezied Berzerker
Telflammar Shadowlord for Shadow Pouncing abuse
and so many others...
Planar Sheepard (time abuse)
Incantrix (persist abuse and pre-epic feat)
Mistyc Theurge with Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord
Initiate of the Seven Veils (defense)
Malconvoker (summoning balors or pit fiends)
Swiftblade (the only Prc that can lost caster levels)
Abjurant Champion (not so broken, but it's better than 5 levels of wizard)But there are others like:
Ranger / Scout with swifthunter feat
Figther / Barbarian / Frenezied Berzerker
Telflammar Shadowlord for Shadow Pouncing abuse
and so many others...
I love Frenzied Berserker and personally don't find it all that overpowered. Mainly because you end up being a burdon to your party who has to take you down.
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Planar Sheepard (time abuse)
Incantrix (persist abuse and pre-epic feat)
Mistyc Theurge with Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord
Initiate of the Seven Veils (defense)
Malconvoker (summoning balors or pit fiends)
Swiftblade (the only Prc that can lost caster levels)
Abjurant Champion (not so broken, but it's better than 5 levels of wizard)But there are others like:
Ranger / Scout with swifthunter feat
Figther / Barbarian / Frenezied Berzerker
Telflammar Shadowlord for Shadow Pouncing abuse
and so many others...I hate to have to do this, but I am going to have to jump in on this right now. I'm only going to discuss the ones that I contest.
Malconvoker: Ok, first off, have you read greater planar binding? Anybody who doesn't take malconvoker and lose a caster level can planar bind a pitfiend. Anybody.
Second, a planar bind is not a sure thing easy money free ride. You make one tiny slip in your negotiations, and that thing will be making you wish you had never even learned the spell.
Third, did I mention you lose a caster level? How many casters are willing to do that?
The Malconvoker is actually a highlight of a well designed prestige class, lots of cool abilities, it actually makes a summoner viable presuming you get your hands on a way to summon as a standard action, and it costs you something valuable to get in.
Malconvokers are excellent as bards who are charisma casters and can afford to lose one caster level. They get nifty tricks like glibness, you can easily out do them. When played smart, you don't need to be careful with the planar ally you summon. You just got the rights to his house, kids, and car.
Glibness ONLY adds to Bluff checks to seem truthful. Not very useful for negotiating with a balor via a planar binding spell, because those are pure Charisma checks.
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Has anyone else noticed that most of the "broken" PRCs are the ones designed for arcane casters?
When you make a PRC class for any other class there is a process of you give up power X to get ability Y. When you make a PRC for a wizard the only thing they have is spell casting progression and 4 bonus feats.
If you loose much casting progression they are not a very good arcane PRC. But if you give them something without taking power away it is broken because we all know that the wizard class is balanced as it is.
Most broken Prestige Classes I've seen to date are both from FR books; namely the FR version of Bladesinger and Hammer of Moradin. The former (from 'Races of Faerun') grants you an extra attack *and* spell per round (IIRC both stack with 'Haste', and you can also cast Quickened spells). The latter pumps up your damage with warhammer to high heavens and gives it some truly unbalanced abilities ('Bane' ability against three types, for example) -- combine it with Craftmaster (?) from 'Races of Stone' to further ramp up your hammer damage bonus *AND* to be able to create magic items (even artifacts) as if you were a 25th level caster.
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Glibness ONLY adds to Bluff checks to seem truthful. Not very useful for negotiating with a balor via a planar binding spell, because those are pure Charisma checks.
Nixie's grace. I'd never leave home without it. Get someone to craft a metamagic rod of persist that could keep it going, and I'd be all set.
Nixie's grace is a 6th level spell. You have to be a 17th level bard/malconvoker to cast it (since malconvoker loses a caster level and nixie's grace is personal only).
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Nixie's grace is a 6th level spell. You have to be a 17th level bard/malconvoker to cast it (since malconvoker loses a caster level and nixie's grace is personal only).
And?
Its not a bad spell to have, and if you do, then you are getting way more benefit than just the +8 charisma. That's just a good spell to have in general.
Sorry, I got mixed up in who I was responding to. I thought your original post on the subject (with glibness) was posted by the guy saying malconvokers were broken. Mea culpa :)
I agree, nixie's grace is nice, although by the time you can do it, the wizards and clerics in your party can gate in solars who can gate in more solars, ad infinitum. That was my point by saying you have to be 17th level to use it -- at 17th level, greater planar binding isn't the best summon spell to be using, even with all the malconvoker bonuses.
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Sorry, I got mixed up in who I was responding to. I thought your original post on the subject (with glibness) was posted by the guy saying malconvokers were broken. Mea culpa :)
I agree, nixie's grace is nice, although by the time you can do it, the wizards and clerics in your party can gate in solars who can gate in more solars, ad infinitum. That was my point by saying you have to be 17th level to use it -- at 17th level, greater planar binding isn't the best summon spell to be using, even with all the malconvoker bonuses.
I know, but not relying on several ability enhancing items is always nice, and the modest boost to will is good.
EDIT: And to clarify, I'm not saying they are broken, just that there are several ways to turn that "maybe" into a "sure thing...almost."
Touch of idiocy comes to mind as an example.
How was the Abjurant Champion overpowered?Has anyone else noticed that most of the "broken" PRCs are the ones designed for arcane casters?Or sometimes divine casters: Radiant Servant of Pelor was a clear case of "give up nothing, and get a big package of benefits for free." But, yeah, things like Initiate of the Seven Veils and the ever-popular Abjurant Cheesewhore top the list for overpowered abuse.
+1, it is specialized, but it is far from broken.
You get a nice bonus for TWF too, and a boost to that shield spell for AC, which saves you the twf defense feats.
Second level spell... Calm Emotions.
I love Frenzied Berserker and personally don't find it all that overpowered. Mainly because you end up being a burdon to your party who has to take you down.
I think grease also works. Frenzied enemies dont get to make balance checks. (IIRC)
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I think grease also works. Frenzied enemies dont get to make balance checks. (IIRC)Second level spell... Calm Emotions.
I love Frenzied Berserker and personally don't find it all that overpowered. Mainly because you end up being a burdon to your party who has to take you down.
Why not? The act of balancing doesn't take any calm, just requires you to do it, you either keep balance or you don't.
Second level spell... Calm Emotions.
I love Frenzied Berserker and personally don't find it all that overpowered. Mainly because you end up being a burdon to your party who has to take you down.
Well not to be a rules lawyer but that Calm Emotions says nothing about ending a Frenzy, just a Rage. And they can always readily save against it.
But regardless, I never saw the problem with FBz. Either you disagree or are just being argumentative.
If there is no reason not to go into a PrC, then there is clearly something fishy about said PrC. Radiant Cheese of Pelor and Abjurant Champion definitely fall in that category.
Another of my pet hates is the Fochlucan Lyrist - "my mastery of bardic magic frees me from my druidic oaths" or "my leet singing allows me to wear metal armour and still use druid spells".
Ughbash, your example stinks of DM manipulation. Why didn't he allow an atonement to regain your feats and sainthood etc.?
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Well not to be a rules lawyer but that Calm Emotions says nothing about ending a Frenzy, just a Rage. And they can always readily save against it.But regardless, I never saw the problem with FBz. Either you disagree or are just being argumentative.
Well Wizards happily answered in their errata that a person can always PURPOSEFULLY fail a save.
I was not trying to say wether a FBz was problematic or not (I am neutral on that matter). I was merely responding to the argument that their frenzy going on after enemies was dead was a problem and balanced them.
I will say however that I do not consider anything in "Tome of 9 Blades" the be overpowering and I do not even consider "Vow of Poverty" to be broken as with standard wealth you coudl get everything in vow of poverty and have money left over.
Interesting campaign I was in, had a Saint, with vow of poverty (cleric). There was a battle between flying ships (high level campaign) and my character alogn iwth otehrs helepd clean up the debris from one of the ships. Among the debris he picked up was a cursed bottle. Bottle being cursed would not allow him to get rid of it, Bottle also obviously after this was a magic item. Bye Bye Vow of Poverty and the resultant exalted feats leaving him one feat shy of sainthood. So byebye Saint hood.
Going from ECL 18 to ECL 16 and naked hurts. Curse was eventually removed but had still violated vows, lost the exalted feats and thus no longer Saint. All because of a cursed item (no save).
He believed that Pelor had given him "Liquid Sunshine" as an offering of his faith (was told by the DM I could not give it up and that was how the character justified keeping it).
While he would lose the sainthood template (because it requires that you not lose a vow, period) I would argue that he could easily get back poverty since it was non-intentional.
I'll toss a non-caster PrC into the mix: the dervish. Seriously, my DM built an 18th-level war chanter/dervish that could take out a great wyrm gold dragon in a single round.