Under the old power attack it was 1 for 1 or 1 for 2 depending on your weapon concerning attack penalty to extra damage.
Under the new power attack it is 1 for 2 or 1 for 3. It seems the ability is weaker for players but stronger for monsters since you get to attack based on your BAB, which monsters normally have a lot of at higher levels.
A monster power attacking for 10 will do 30 extra points of damage with its main attack and 20 with the other natural attacks. I realized this a few weeks ago when I ran Illthane in Age of Worms. I did not power attack for 10 but it was still painful. I think the option to attack for less should have been placed there.
Opinions on the subject?
Under the old power attack it was 1 for 1 or 1 for 2 depending on your weapon concerning attack penalty to extra damage.
Under the new power attack it is 1 for 2 or 1 for 3. It seems the ability is weaker for players but stronger for monsters since you get to attack based on your BAB, which monsters normally have a lot of at higher levels.A monster power attacking for 10 will do 30 extra points of damage with its main attack and 20 with the other natural attacks. I realized this a few weeks ago when I ran Illthane in Age of Worms. I did not power attack for 10 but it was still painful. I think the option to attack for less should have been placed there.
Opinions on the subject?
However, you can no longer go for all your BAB with the power attack. Your power attack is -1 to attack and +3 to damage (two handed weapon) for every +4 of BAB. So, it does give good rewards for the attack penalty, but it's much more limited in terms of ramping up the power than it was in 3.5.
However, you can no longer go for all your BAB with the power attack. Your power attack is -1 to attack and +3 to damage (two handed weapon) for every +4 of BAB. So, it does give good rewards for the attack penalty, but it's much more limited in terms of ramping up the power than it was in 3.5.Under the old power attack it was 1 for 1 or 1 for 2 depending on your weapon concerning attack penalty to extra damage.
Under the new power attack it is 1 for 2 or 1 for 3. It seems the ability is weaker for players but stronger for monsters since you get to attack based on your BAB, which monsters normally have a lot of at higher levels.A monster power attacking for 10 will do 30 extra points of damage with its main attack and 20 with the other natural attacks. I realized this a few weeks ago when I ran Illthane in Age of Worms. I did not power attack for 10 but it was still painful. I think the option to attack for less should have been placed there.
Opinions on the subject?
But monsters hit a lot harder now. I think it needs to be redone to be balanced from the NPC side also. I just dont have time to play around with it. I could always not power attack, but I dont like to pull punches.
You still can't Power Attack for 10 unless you have, like, a BAB of 40.
You still can't Power Attack for 10 unless you have, like, a BAB of 40.
You only need a 36. Ok, so a 36 is hard to come by but it is the big high level monsters that have rediculous BAB's
Dragon wills be an issue. Demons and Devils are more efficient with their HD so it should hurt a little less.
Giants being very strong will also put a hurting on a PC. They can now power attack for less than 10 and do equal damage or more than they could under the old rules.
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You still can't Power Attack for 10 unless you have, like, a BAB of 40.You only need a 36. Ok, so a 36 is hard to come by but it is the big high level monsters that have rediculous BAB's
Dragon wills be an issue. Demons and Devils are more efficient with their HD so it should hurt a little less.
Giants being very strong will also put a hurting on a PC. They can now power attack for less than 10 and do equal damage or more than they could under the old rules.
I don't think it's that big an issue. By the time you're facing a monster with a BAB of 36, you're going to be what, level 18+? The meat shield should have about 300 hp, so what's an extra 30 points of damage? Sure, it's 10% of his total. So the cleric channels energy a round sooner. But, with with that -10 penalty on ALL attacks, the monster should, theoretically, miss at least one extra time that round. So, you trade 1 hit for an extra 90 points of damage. Sure it's painful, but dem's da breaks when you're the party meat shield. It's not like the giant can exchange take a -25 penalty, still hit twice, and deal an extra 150 points of damage.
I don't think it's that big an issue. By the time you're facing a monster with a BAB of 36, you're going to be what, level 18+? The meat shield should have about 300 hp, so what's an extra 30 points of damage? Sure, it's 10% of his total. So the cleric channels energy a round sooner. But, with with that -10 penalty on ALL attacks, the monster should, theoretically, miss at least one extra time that round. So, you trade 1 hit for an extra 90 points of damage. Sure it's painful, but dem's da breaks when you're the party meat shield. It's not like the giant can exchange take a -25 penalty, still hit twice, and deal an extra 150 points of damage.You still can't Power Attack for 10 unless you have, like, a BAB of 40.You only need a 36. Ok, so a 36 is hard to come by but it is the big high level monsters that have rediculous BAB's
Dragon wills be an issue. Demons and Devils are more efficient with their HD so it should hurt a little less.
Giants being very strong will also put a hurting on a PC. They can now power attack for less than 10 and do equal damage or more than they could under the old rules.
If the monster has multiattack he probably wont miss to many attacks and a level 20 fighter has closer to 220 hp.I know this is also assuming all of the monster's attack go against one person, but that is what those melee guys are for. I will be running this weekend against non drgaons. Maybe that will help.
Clarification: New power attack does 1:2 for main hand, 1:3 for two-handed, and just 1:1 for off-hand
Key point: Power attack on natural attacks will only do x3 if it's their only attack.
Easy rule would be that attacks that get 1.5X STR mod get the "wielded two-handed" bonus [though technically no natural attack is "wielded two-handed"]. Generally speaking, creatures only get 1.5 x STR if they only have a single attack (bite usually). It seems they now get their regular STR score to most attacks though (and would probably get the 1:2 for those).
Giants... yes, they've gotten a boost out of it - though their HD (and BAB moreso) tend to be fairly low as well.
All in all though, you're right, power attack got a *lot* better, for everyone, despite the cries of it being nerfed.
All in all though, you're right, power attack got a *lot* better, for everyone, despite the cries of it being nerfed.
That is a very rude and opinionated statement.
The problem is the damage cap.
Power Attack Damage Chart
LVL-Old New
1----2---3
4----8---6
8----16--9
12---24--12
16---32--15
20---40--18
"Old" Column is for the old power attack
"New" is for the Pathfinder power attack
Yeah you took a larger minus to hit, but you could mitigate this with other feats like shock trooper, AND you had a choice so you could adjust it to the difficulty you found the target to hit. Power attack has become vastly less useful, because the original was useful in all situations.
In the end tough, this new power attack has de-fanged melee types damage capabilities entirely as this was the only real way for them to do it.
Yeah you took a larger minus to hit, but you could mitigate this with other feats like shock trooper,
So it worked well...If you used splat to make it work well...I hate when folks use that. If it was 100% fine worked good then do not say when ya use x from the big book of munchy munch
Not picking one you but if ya took 20 off your hit , you prob just missed
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But look at the fantastic simplicity it has added. Instead of melee players having to have Masters Degrees in mathematics and constantly calculating statistical probabilities, now they can actually sit back and play the game with an easy decision - to power attack or not to power attack.
Sure, you can't figure out the monsters AC and calculate exactly what amount of power attack to use - but this is completely reasonable. Does your average power-attacking fighter have the ability to *exactly* predict how powerful of a swing he should use to have the best combination of damage/hitting potential? Of course not. All the fighter thinks in the heat of battle is 'should I focus on hitting him, or attempt a powerful blow?'
For all those with comments about how Power Attack is nerfed, I suggest you use your advanced knowledge of mathematics for something more useful to society - rather than just playing a game. For the rest of us, we're satisfied with "I swing with accuracy" or "I swing with power".
Seekerofshadowlight & Auspician:
Even without the splat, there was always as is, which was not that bad. I never really did the uber math. If I felt that the thing looked like it was easy to hit, by pic or description, it would power attack for a moderate amount for the leave. If it seemed easy to hit, then I would power attack for 1 or 2, if at all.
I would watch my dice and if I hit on a 7 or 8 I would power attack for more. This is reasonable, in play, as my character would realize that they thing was not hard to hit.
Shock Trooper was a nice easy all fix for most situations as I played a barbarian I would just go for it all, being the suicidal melee type and all. It was nice, as I had the dice and bonus damage with the new AC already written down, but it was not needed.
It still also does not change the fact that melees have been de=fanged by the drastic drop in damage cap alone.
P.S. As to if a fighter has that level of control, that I might be able to agree on. But SOME control seems reasonable too.
I suggested that a one could power attack for -1, or in sets of -5 (players choice), which gives them 6 maximum choices, but still some reasonable choices.
I saw way to much of "I'll take 7 off...no wait 5....no 6..wait..3..or would 4 be better?...no i'll do 5...{rolls dice} wait! 6..6!" In 8 years It got to the point of the timer even without the math guys on the other end with spreedsheets.
I for one like the new one 10 times better just for that
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I would watch my dice and if I hit on a 7 or 8 I would power attack for more. This is reasonable, in play, as my character would realize that they thing was not hard to hit.
That logic only works if you're metagaming. The fighter doesn't know in character that they hit on a 7 or 8. They just know that they hit. By deciding to power attack after considering what the dice showed up as you're using out of character knowledge in character.
I for one am glad the rules have been written in such a way as to discourage metagaming such as this. Much better than rolling the players attack rolls behind the GM screen as I have considered doing in the past . . .
I saw way to much of "I'll take 7 off...no wait 5....no 6..wait..3..or would 4 be better?...no i'll do 5...{rolls dice} wait! 6..6!" In 8 years It got to the point of the timer even without the math guys on the other end with spreedsheets.
I for one like the new one 10 times better just for that
I would have to speak to my GM, but I don't think I really ever had that problem. Perhaps if we had a smaller group 3-4, but you shouldn't assume everyone has that problem.
And your are ignoring my main argument as the maximum damage a melee character can do with the feat drops to half at level 12, and just goes spiraling fast down hill from then on in comparison.
Melee are no longer the one target damage dealers they once were.
see if it was a must have feat for melee classes then yeah it needed fixed. I find it works ok now. We have had no issues with using it so far and I really don't see the issue. Your also over looking that fact with the new one your'll hit alot more...-4 to hit vs -12? easy I'll take the -4 good chance I'll hit, with the -12 it's unlikely I'll hit unless he is way lower level
As for the number issues , it was common enough from what I have heard. Unless your group had spread sheets, it seems to have been a common issue. Glad ya didn't have it
I saw way to much of "I'll take 7 off...no wait 5....no 6..wait..3..or would 4 be better?...no i'll do 5...{rolls dice} wait! 6..6!" In 8 years It got to the point of the timer even without the math guys on the other end with spreedsheets.
I for one like the new one 10 times better just for that
I remember playing a power attacker in 3.5. The problem was that in full attacks, he missed a lot on his iteratives when he really needed to hit.
I ended up not doing the full deal, maybe 2-5, depending on what I guessed the AC to be. I was often wrong, and suffered accordingly.
Against easier targets, it was 1-round kill, even with a missed iterative or two. The new PA is effective, and easy to do in your head without a calculator; just not as murderous as the old one, overall.
Play it for a while. Let your monsters do it. The math is easier on the fly, and in the cinematic sense, it's more impressive with a two-handed weapon, just as it should be.
And watch out for those ogre barbarians! They pack a punch! :)
see if it was a must have feat for melee classes then yeah it needed fixed.
I hate that argument, because why doesn't anyone every apply that to skills? When it comes to skills they say make it a standard bonus, but when people don't like a feat, like you, they say nerf it. This makes little sense.
So I would see power attack as more of a feat tax for non magical or precision melee types.
Oh and that makes me think. You don't like splat books being justified for a fix? Why is that? Well anyway if we can't use those splat books, what was the point of making pathfinder anyway, wasn't it to have a re-worked 3.5 system that was compatible with all the books we bought?
Anyway, I have said my points, later.
If your average damage was over 40, the old system did penalize you for making a power attack (or for taking a new -1 to your attack), when your chance of hitting was less than 95%. This is, with a two handed weapon.
Let's say you hitted for 22 average, and that you PA for -9/+18. Your attack was +40, and the AC 33. As 40-9 = 31, you needed at least to drow a 2 to hit (95%). Your average damage:
0.95 * (22+18) = 38
Adding a further -1/+2:
0.9 * 42 = 37.8
So older PA had a cap of 40 in the average damage that the hit would deal. For a one handed weapon, the cap was in 20!!!
Now in PF, the cap for a one handed weapon is in 40, and for a 2 handed weapon, in 56.
Let's say you hitted for 40 before PA, that your attack was +40 and that AC was 42 (95% chance)
Average damage before PA: 0.95 * 40 = 38
Adding just one point of PA (-1/+2)
Average damage: 0.85 * 42 = 35.7
You better don't use PA
In PF
Average damage before PA: 0.95 * 40 = 38
Average damage with PA: 0.7 * 58 = 40.6
So unless at level 20 you were hitting with 95% chance after lowering your attack by 10+, your hits did lesser damage as average. In other words, PA from PF is better than from 3.5, except for some corner situations (low AC enemies, great DR, etc.). I have not taken into account iterative attacks and critical hits, which did suffer a lot more from older PA.
Now also, PA is useful for one handed melee builds.
If your average damage was over 40, the old system did penalize you for making a power attack (or for taking a new -1 to your attack), when your chance of hitting was less than 95%. This is, with a two handed weapon.
Let's say you hitted for 22 average, and that you PA for -9/+18. Your attack was +40, and the AC 33. As 40-9 = 31, you needed at least to drow a 2 to hit (95%). Your average damage:
0.95 * (22+18) = 38
Adding a further -1/+2:
0.9 * 42 = 37.8So older PA had a cap of 40 in the average damage that the hit would deal. For a one handed weapon, the cap was in 20!!!
Now in PF, the cap for a one handed weapon is in 40, and for a 2 handed weapon, in 56.Let's say you hitted for 40 before PA, that your attack was +40 and that AC was 42 (95% chance)
Average damage before PA: 0.95 * 40 = 38
Adding just one point of PA (-1/+2)
Average damage: 0.85 * 42 = 35.7
You better don't use PAIn PF
Average damage before PA: 0.95 * 40 = 38
Average damage with PA: 0.7 * 58 = 40.6So unless at level 20 you were hitting with 95% chance after lowering your attack by 10+, your hits did lesser damage as average. In other words, PA from PF is better than from 3.5, except for some corner situations (low AC enemies, great DR, etc.). I have not taken into account iterative attacks and critical hits, which did suffer a lot more from older PA.
Now also, PA is useful for one handed melee builds.
One handed weapons still get the shaft as all off hand weapons power attack as light weapons no matter what.
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One handed weapons still get the shaft as all off hand weapons power attack as light weapons no matter what.
Light weapons make no difference in Pathfinder any longer for Power Attack
Power Attack in Pathfinder is now balanced between Two-Handed fighters and Two-Weapon Fighters as they both receive the same total Power Attack bonus to damage (+150%). When someone is using a one-handed weapon and a shield, well they are gaining the benefit of their shield. So balanced there as well.
The only difficulties that might creep up on TWF is the split damage and DR on creatures.
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To be honest, I find the new version of Power Attack refreshing, like nearly ALL of the Pathfinder rules. In 3.5, I played my share of Goliath Fighter Barbarian Frenzied Berserkers wielding impact minotaur greathammers with greater mighty whallop permanently affixed, and PA was my best friend. I always just noted on my sheet what my damage would be if I power attacked for 'X', where 'X' was simply a number I chose that would be a "typical" power attack penalty. Like 5 or 10 against tough opponents, or 15 against easy to hit opponents. The point is, the math was already done, so I rarely had to sit there and figure out what my bonus was.
Now, though, the feat is streamlined. Like the rest of PF, it allows the game to flow smoothly, without the need to consult 53 pages of rules in 12 different books to determine exactly what you can do this round. I don't feel it was nerfed, as it still allows characters to do considerable extra damage (albeit not as much as the previous edition), while keeping the game moving.
If the new PA has been nerfed, would you say trip as been nerfed also? Because it's not as easy to trip a character now as it was "back in the day". Not only does CMD make it more difficult, you don't get the "free" attack after the trip. Tripping was always one of my favorite tactics. I still think it's a great tactic to use, even though it's different and, *gasp*, less effective. Both tactics FIT with the new spirit of the game, though. The spirit that SHOULD have been present in 3.5 but wasn't.
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If the monster has multiattack he probably wont miss to many attacks and a level 20 fighter has closer to 220 hp.I know this is also assuming all of the monster's attack go against one person, but that is what those melee guys are for. I will be running this weekend against non drgaons. Maybe that will help.
I disagree with your HP estimate. 20th level fighter, with a Con of 26 (super easy to get at 20th level), and Toughness will have (13.5*19)+18+20=294HP. More with better than average rolls. A 20th level barbarian with the same Con and Toughness will have 314HP (394 while raging).
If the monster has multiattack he probably wont miss to many attacks and a level 20 fighter has closer to 220 hp.I know this is also assuming all of the monster's attack go against one person, but that is what those melee guys are for. I will be running this weekend against non drgaons. Maybe that will help.I disagree with your HP estimate. 20th level fighter, with a Con of 26 (super easy to get at 20th level), and Toughness will have (13.5*19)+18+20=294HP. More with better than average rolls. A 20th level barbarian with the same Con and Toughness will have 314HP (394 while raging).
Most people put those extra ability points into strength instead of constitution. I forgot about toughness so maybe that brings it up to 240-250.
One handed weapons still get the shaft as all off hand weapons power attack as light weapons no matter what.Light weapons make no difference in Pathfinder any longer for Power Attack
Power Attack in Pathfinder is now balanced between Two-Handed fighters and Two-Weapon Fighters as they both receive the same total Power Attack bonus to damage (+150%). When someone is using a one-handed weapon and a shield, well they are gaining the benefit of their shield. So balanced there as well.
The only difficulties that might creep up on TWF is the split damage and DR on creatures.
OH don't get me started about this BS right now. You spend a feat and take a -4 to hit you should get SOMETHING more than one who spent only 1 feat and taking no minus tohit.
To be honest, I find the new version of Power Attack refreshing, like nearly ALL of the Pathfinder rules. In 3.5, I played my share of Goliath Fighter Barbarian Frenzied Berserkers wielding impact minotaur greathammers with greater mighty whallop permanently affixed, and PA was my best friend. I always just noted on my sheet what my damage would be if I power attacked for 'X', where 'X' was simply a number I chose that would be a "typical" power attack penalty. Like 5 or 10 against tough opponents, or 15 against easy to hit opponents. The point is, the math was already done, so I rarely had to sit there and figure out what my bonus was.
Now, though, the feat is streamlined. Like the rest of PF, it allows the game to flow smoothly, without the need to consult 53 pages of rules in 12 different books to determine exactly what you can do this round. I don't feel it was nerfed, as it still allows characters to do considerable extra damage (albeit not as much as the previous edition), while keeping the game moving.
If the new PA has been nerfed, would you say trip as been nerfed also? Because it's not as easy to trip a character now as it was "back in the day". Not only does CMD make it more difficult, you don't get the "free" attack after the trip. Tripping was always one of my favorite tactics. I still think it's a great tactic to use, even though it's different and, *gasp*, less effective. Both tactics FIT with the new spirit of the game, though. The spirit that SHOULD have been present in 3.5 but wasn't.
It was nerfed because it forces you to take a certain number. The other issue is that monsters are not as affected because they have a lot of HD which allows them to hit very hard even if they dont power attack. They can't mormally take a -10, but they don't have to because they can now power attack for less and still do the same damage as before. Many of them also have a high number of secondary attacks, and with the multi-attack feat(correct name?) they only get a -2, in addition to the PA penalty of course.
You know, the "all-or-nothing" part of Power Attack also applies to monsters.
You know, the "all-or-nothing" part of Power Attack also applies to monsters.
I know, but their attack bonuses are normally high enough at high levels that they dont miss to often since attack bonuses normally grow faster than AC does.
Even if the player can hit the monster it may have some form of DR. The player just has to take the hit.
When you're hitting >40 damage, unless your attack bonus is so high that you're hitting on anything but a 1, power attack decreases your average damage.
If you're giving them monsters that auto-hit the high-AC tank, you might want to reconsider what you're throwing at them.
That logic only works if you're metagaming. The fighter doesn't know in character that they hit on a 7 or 8. They just know that they hit.
Hold on there. While I share the dislike of metagaming, the numbers do represent in-game events. The character thinks, "Whoops, that was a pretty poor swing... wide and off-balance. But I still connected! Maybe I can afford to go all-out."
One handed weapons still get the shaft as all off hand weapons power attack as light weapons no matter what.
I don't remember for certain, but wasn't that the rule in 3.5 as well? I recall not being allowed to power attack with light weapons and it was in the feat description that you couldn't.
You know, the "all-or-nothing" part of Power Attack also applies to monsters.
Anybody remember some of those power attacking animals in Paizo's Dungeon APs, the ones with so much BAB that they could automatically power attack for ten or more damage without losing their "always hits" attack bonus from strength?
so..... Power Attack is supposedly equal between two-weapon fighting and two-handed fighting, when the person using 2 weapon fighting is, just by using 2wf, taking a 10% cut in average damage (accuracy), and ontop of that, has DR applied twice?
Yes, actually. No one said 2-Weapon fighting and using a 2-handed weapon were entirely balanced, just that Power attack applied the same total bonus to each. (3x the attack bonus lost).
Assuming your attack bonus is high enough (and for a lot of high level melee types it would be) you might even get more out of it for a two-weapon fighter, precisely because of things like DR. Versus a creature with DR 10, a two weapon fighter dealing 40 on each swing gains a 30% boost in damage from going up to 49 on each swing (40-10=30, 49-10=39, 39/30=1.3), where a two-weapon fighter dealing 20 on each swing gains a 45% boost in damage ([20-10]x2=20 , [26-10]+[23-10]=29, 29/20=1.45).
Again, I am not saying two weapon fighting is mechanically balanced against using a two handed weapon, just pointing out what people meant when they said power attack was balanced between the two.
Oh, and he has to take 3 feats, and still doesn't get to apply it on his charge attacks, standard action attacks, or attacks of opportunity.
True, of course on the other hand, a two weapon fighter gets to apply favored enemy damage bonuses, sneak attack, bardic music buffs, and weapon specialization bonuses twice, which can be a big boost in overall damage when they can make a full attack.
When you're hitting >40 damage, unless your attack bonus is so high that you're hitting on anything but a 1, power attack decreases your average damage.
Not true actually, and it's pretty easy to show it's not true with a quick example. Lets say you're dealing 45 damage per attack, on average, and hitting on a 1 or better (but only just). Your average damage will be 42.75 (45 * .95), now power attack for -3/+9, your average damage on a hit goes up to 54, and your chance to hit drops to .8, making your average damage 43.2 (54 * .8).
Now that might not be much of a boost, but it's definitely not a reduction.
The exact cutoff point for power attack will depend on your odds to hit, but it's considerably higher than 40, and the better your odds of hitting, the higher it becomes.
When you're hitting >40 damage, unless your attack bonus is so high that you're hitting on anything but a 1, power attack decreases your average damage.
If you're giving them monsters that auto-hit the high-AC tank, you might want to reconsider what you're throwing at them.
If you're using weapons power attack may drop the average because the next iteration drops your attack roll by 5, and then you get the power attack penalty on top of that. Many monsters have their next natural attacks at a -2, not a -5, they have enough extra attacks that some of them will hit. Some monsters get weapon attacks and natural attacks. AC does not scale well in the game.
If you start off with a level X character you get to choose all your magic items, but if your character starts at a lower level you don't have the same luxury to get the items you want so your AC normally is not as high as it would be. That is why many DM's put a limit on how much gold you can spend on any one item. Even in a magic mart campaign the gold is not always available when you need it to be.|
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Most people put those extra ability points into strength instead of constitution. I forgot about toughness so maybe that brings it up to 240-250.
That's why the gods invented inherent and enhancement bonuses, my friend. +6 enhancement, +5 inherent gives you +11. If you started with a 15 con, you don't put ANY level bumps into con. With the ability to purchase a belt with +6 to all three physical abilities, there's no reason your 20th level meat shield shouldn't have a 25+ con. Play a dwarf, and it's even easier. What else are you putting your starting scores into? Intelligence? You don't really need that many skills as a fighter. A score of 10 will be just fine, thank you. 13 if you want the combat expertise tree. Charisma? Screw intimidate. Besides, with all your feats as a fighter, you simply take the feat that lets you add your strength mod instead of Charisma. Pretty simple, really. Why does a fighter (or barbarian) need more than charisma 7? +4 points to your starting point-buy!
If your meat shields are only hitting 220 hp at 20th level, you need to reconsider some build ideas, I think.
Also, as numerous people have pointed out, monsters have the same "disadvantages" when using power attack that PCs have. Is the issue here that the game is "more dangerous"? Personally, I find it refreshing that monsters can be more of a threat. In 3.5, it seemed like anything past 15th level (at least until epic levels) were instant wins for the PCs. Where's the threat of danger? PCs need that threat to keep them honest.
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If you're using weapons power attack may drop the average because the next iteration drops your attack roll by 5, and then you get the power attack penalty on top of that. Many monsters have their next natural attacks at a -2, not a -5, they have enough extra attacks that some of them will hit. Some monsters get weapon attacks and natural attacks. AC does not scale well in the game.
If you start off with a level X character you get to choose all your magic items, but if your character starts at a lower level you don't have the same luxury to get the items you want so your AC normally is not as high as it would be. That is why many DM's put a limit on how much gold you can spend on any one item. Even in a magic mart campaign the gold is not always available when you need it to be.
Show me the monster that has so many attacks at -2 that Power Attack makes that much difference. Since monsters don't get iterative attacks (unless they have class levels), there aren't that many with huge numbers of attacks. 1 bite, 2 claws, 1 tail...that's 4. Oh no, power attack for -10 for +20 damage each. It's not like a monster can wield its natural weapons in two hands.
EDIT: By the time you're facing the monsters who can take -10 with power attack, you should have some casters who can even the field in a hurry. Your meat shield need only hold the monster off for a round.
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OH don't get me started about this BS right now. You spend a feat and take a -4 to hit you should get SOMETHING more than one who spent only 1 feat and taking no minus to hit.
Is this part of the discussion for Power Attack or does it have to do with fighting styles? You throw out numbers without references, lazy much?
so..... Power Attack is supposedly equal between two-weapon fighting and two-handed fighting, when the person using 2 weapon fighting is, just by using 2wf, taking a 10% cut in average damage (accuracy), and ontop of that, has DR applied twice?
The Power Attack bonus applied to damage is exactly the same for 2H and TWF. Compared to the 3.5e version, this is a *doubling* of damage from PA for wielding one-handed weapons and adds half as much again with a light off-hand weapon, where before light weapons gained zero bonus damage! Can't argue with that kind of increase in TWF using PA. Any faults you see are associated with the fighting style and not the Power Attack feat.
Edit: Sorry for the rant, build parity is something important to me, and it really makes me sad to see problems like that. I mean come on, the twfers are thematically supposed to be the mobile agile ones, but they give up more by moving. They can't even get a full double-swing out of spring attack, and the feat screams 2wfing combat dancer.
Good topic mate. By all means, start a new thread about TWFing. I think this is worth discussing more.
It was nerfed because it forces you to take a certain number. The other issue is that monsters are not as affected because they have a lot of HD which allows them to hit very hard even if they dont power attack. They can't mormally take a -10, but they don't have to because they can now power attack for less and still do the same damage as before. Many of them also have a high number of secondary attacks, and with the multi-attack feat(correct name?) they only...
The Power Attack damage bonus is:
100% for natural weapons150% for primary natural weapons that add 1.5 Str
50% for secondary natural weapons
If I remember it right, the PA in 3.5 was -1/+1 for all natural attacks, so the feat has been nerfed for monsters.
One handed weapons still get the shaft as all off hand weapons power attack as light weapons no matter what.Light weapons make no difference in Pathfinder any longer for Power Attack
Power Attack in Pathfinder is now balanced between Two-Handed fighters and Two-Weapon Fighters as they both receive the same total Power Attack bonus to damage (+150%). When someone is using a one-handed weapon and a shield, well they are gaining the benefit of their shield. So balanced there as well.
The only difficulties that might creep up on TWF is the split damage and DR on creatures.
so..... Power Attack is supposedly equal between two-weapon fighting and two-handed fighting, when the person using 2 weapon fighting is, just by using 2wf, taking a 10% cut in average damage (accuracy), and ontop of that, has DR applied twice?
Oh, and he has to take 3 feats, and still doesn't get to apply it on his charge attacks, standard action attacks, or attacks of opportunitie.
Granted the AoO part was fixed by the Miniatures Handbook with yet ANOTHER feat, but wait, most people in wouldn't even allow said feat because the bulk seem to automatically hate splats as broken monstrosities rather than useful tools for character design.
The first step to bringing two weapon fighting into parity, is to allow it any time a two-handed swing could happen. You determine how many feats that takes yourself, depending on what you feel is appropriate, but until that happens, two-weapon fighting is not equal.
Edit: Sorry for the rant, build parity is something important to me, and it really makes me sad to see problems like that. I mean come on, the twfers are thematically supposed to be the mobile agile ones, but they give up more by moving. They can't even get a full double-swing out of spring attack, and the feat screams 2wfing combat dancer.
I am totally with you here on this one. I have tried desperately for Jason to fix this in beta, but he apparently sees something we do not.
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The Power Attack damage bonus is:
100% for natural weapons
150% for primary natural weapons that add 1.5 Str
50% for secondary natural weaponsIf I remember it right, the PA in 3.5 was -1/+1 for all natural attacks, so the feat has been nerfed for monsters.
How do you come to the conclusion that this is nerfed for monsters when the new PA provides -1/+3 for Primary attacks and -1/+1 for secondary attacks? Compared to the previous -1/+1 for 3.5e PA.
OH don't get me started about this BS right now. You spend a feat and take a -4 to hit you should get SOMETHING more than one who spent only 1 feat and taking no minus to hit.Is this part of the discussion for Power Attack or does it have to do with fighting styles? You throw out numbers without references, lazy much?
Don't be a jerk. I asked that you not get me started.
I was there during beta putting up the numbers. The fact still stays the same. Power attack now does absolutely nothing for TWF, and that was my point.
Power Attack (Combat)You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
So you deal 1:2 ratio with primary, and 1:1 ratio with off hand, which is about the same as a two handed weapon at 1:3, and you take a -2 (or -4) to hit, and DR applies twice. Total horrible combination of a feats. In 3.5 you got a 1:2 ratio to start no matter what, but had to take a -4 to hit with TWF. Things though got better in most situations with ratio modifiers from splat books. Also add in the fact that full round attacks are the only situations in which you get any benefit from TWF, otherwise your stuck with a single attack that pails in comparison to THF.
How do you come to the conclusion that this is nerfed for monsters when the new PA provides -1/+3 for Primary attacks and -1/+1 for secondary attacks? Compared to the previous -1/+1 for 3.5e PA.
The Power Attack damage bonus is:
100% for natural weapons
150% for primary natural weapons that add 1.5 Str
50% for secondary natural weaponsIf I remember it right, the PA in 3.5 was -1/+1 for all natural attacks, so the feat has been nerfed for monsters.
I did not explain it right, sorry.
If you have a dragon with one main attack and five secondary attacks, you get -1/+2 in its main and -1/+1 in the other five. It has got a better damage bonus only in its main attack, comparing to previous version of PA.As Power Attack has got an increase in the damage of every attack, except for secondary attack weapons, monsters with a high BAB and lot of secondary natural weapons have almost the same incentive to use PA than before, except that they can't lower their attack as much as before to increase damage.
So it's not a nerf, you are right, it's just they have not got (most of) the new profit, but they have taken the new penalties.
Sorry to threadjack a bit, but the discussion of Two Weapon Fighters vs. Two Handed Weapon Fighters got me thinking (and differed a bit from my experience with them), so I decided to build a pair of equivalent characters to really do some testing and see what the outcome of Power Attacking was for each (as well as test the idea that two weapon fighting is in some way gimped). I did my best to make both characters as realistically as possible, using just the feats and options from the PRD. To determine what AC they'd need to hit, I used the MM guidelines for AC (CR +13), and a -1 CR opponent (since most fights won't be against the BBEG, they'll be against his mooks, you'll face many, many more -1 and -2 CR foes than even CR foes). At 13 CR, and AC 26, you couldn't get more iconic than the Beholder, so this is right in line with actual foes you might face.
So here we go..
For those that don't want to read the full character breakdowns, the results are as follows:
On a full attack without power attack, the two weapon fighter deals an average of 257.835 damage, and the two handed weapon fighter deals an average of 176.51 damage.
On a full attack with power attack, the two weapon fighter deals an average of 292.04 damage, and the two handed weapon fighter deals an average of 226.13 damage.
These results do include the odds of successfully hitting, odds of successfully critting, and the effect of other combat feats (such as Bleeding Critical). These results also include the effects of Boots of Speed and the Fighter's Bard cohort.
While this seems to strongly favor the two weapon fighter, the two handed weapon fighter has a higher AC, performs much better in situations where only a standard action is possible, performs better against foes with high DR, and has a variety of very useful additional combat feats (Disruptive, Spellbreaker, Lunge, Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, and Stand Still.) Alternatively, feats like Disruptive and Spellbreaker could be dropped in favor of the Vital Strike tree, further improving the two weapon fighters damage on a Standard action, but doing nothing for the damage on a full attack. The two weapon fighter is also taking considerably more damage from the Vicious enchantment, and has to pay more for his weapons.
Once you see it in the context of a fully fleshed out character, it's pretty hard to argue that twf is in any way weak. Now, it very much does matter what class you play, Barbarians get much less in the way of flat bonuses to damage, so they do better with two handed weapons, Paladins using smite evil gain even more from two weapon fighting than fighters do, rangers attacking favored enemies are on par with fighters (when it comes to bonus damage sources), and Rogues of course do much better with twf when they can sneak attack.
The two weapon fighting tree might look weak in isolation, but it allows you to greatly increase the effect of any other flat bonuses to damage from any source, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Training, Enhancement bonuses, etc. which can go a long, long way towards ramping up it's power.
I think both these builds also show off the power of Power Attack, even for the two weapon fighter, it's a significant boost in damage on a full attack and for the two handed weapon fighter it's nearly a 30% boost in damage. The new power attack almost mirrors exactly what the correct value was for hitting the "sweet spot" on power attacks under 3.5, at least against foes close to the average AC for their CR.
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Male Human Fighter 14
NG Medium humanoid (Human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +1
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DEFENSE
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AC 31, touch 17, flat-footed 26 (10 Base, +12 Armor, +4 Dex, +2 Deflection, +2 Natural, +1 Dodge)
hp 229 (13d10+97)
Fort +18, Ref +12, Will +9; (+4 vs. Fear effects)
Defensive Abilities Armor Training +3, Bravery +4
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee +33/+33/+33/+28/+28/+23/+23 Shortswords (1d6+2d6+20) or with Power Attack +29/+29/+24/+19 Shortsword (1d6+2d6+28) and +29/+24/+19 Shortsword (1d6+2d6+24)
Ranged -
Special Attacks Two Weapon Rend (1d10+12), Bleeding Critical
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STATISTICS
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Str 26, Dex 18, Con 20, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 7
Base Atk +14/+9/+4; CMB +22; CMD 36
Feats Bleeding Critical, Critical Focus, Double Slice, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Leadership, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Toughness, Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Rend, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization
Skills Intimidate +15
Languages Common
SQ Armor Training +3, Weapon Training(Blades, Light) +3, Weapon Training(Double) +2, Weapon Training(Axes) +1, Bravery +4
Combat Gear Belt of Physical Perfection +4, +3 Vicious Shortsword (x2), +4 Full Plate, +2 Ring of Protection, +2 Amulet of Natural Armor, +4 Cloak of Resistance, Boots of Speed
Just so everyone can check my numbers, I've spelled out how I arrived at the total attack bonus and damage bonus here. I chose a bard companion from Leadership, but if the party had a Cleric or a Bard the fighter could easily do without him (and the feat).
For the primary attack bonus it's:
+14 Bab
-2 Two Weapon Fighting
+1 Haste (Boots of Speed)
+2 Morale (Heroism)
+2 Competence (Bardic Song)
+2 Weapon Focus
+3 Weapon Training
+3 Enhancement (+3 Vicious Shortsword)
+8 Strength
Totaling +33 to hit (And of course -5/-10 on the various iterative attacks)
For damage it's:
+2 Competence (Bardic Song)
+3 Weapon Training
+3 Enhancement (+3 Vicious Shortsword)
+4 Weapon Specialization
+8 Strength
+1d6 Shortsword
+2d6 Vicious
Totaling 1d6+2d6+20 Damage
On power attacks those would change to +29 to hit and either an extra +8 or +4 damage, depending on which hand you're looking at.
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Average Damage (without Power Attack)
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Avg. damage on a non crit: 30.5
Avg. damage on a crit: 54
Probability of each attack being a hit or a crit:
Attack--Hit-----Crit----Average Damage
+33-----.76-----.19-----33.44 (x3)
+28-----.76-----.19-----33.44 (x2)
+23-----.71-----.19-----31.915 (x2)
(Hit chance has the chance of critting subtracted from it's total)
Two Weapon Rend (1d10+12, 17.5 average damage)
Chance of hitting at least once with the main hand: 1-(.05*.05*.05*.1) = 0.999975 (99.9975%)
Chance of hitting at least once with off hand: 1-(.05*.05*.1) = .99975 (99.975%)
Chance of hitting at least once with both hands: .99975 * .999975 = 0.99972500625 (~99.9725%)
Average Damage per full attack: ~17.495 damage
Bleeding Critical (2d6 per application per round, Average of 7 per round per crit)
Average of 1.33 crits per round, 9.31 average damage the first round, 18.62 the second, and so on.
Total Average Damage: 257.835
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Average Damage (with Power Attack)
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Avg. damage on a non crit: 38.5 (main hand) or 34.5 (off hand)
Avg. damage on a crit: 70 (main hand) or 62 (off hand)
Probability of each attack being a hit or a crit:
Attack--Hit-----Crit----Average Damage
+29-----.76-----.19-----42.56 (x2, main hand) + 38 (offhand)
+24-----.76-----.19-----42.56 (main hand) + 38 (offhand)
+19-----.52-----.18-----32.62 (main hand) + 29.1 (offhand)
(Hit chance has the chance of critting subtracted from it's total)
Two Weapon Rend (1d10+12, 17.5 average damage)
Chance of hitting at least once with the main hand: 1-(.05*.05*.05*.3) = 0.9999625 (99.99625%)
Chance of hitting at least once with off hand: 1-(.05*.05*.3) = 0.99925 (99.925%)
Chance of hitting at least once with both hands: 0.9990625 * 0.9925 = 0.998313203125 (~99.83%)
Average Damage per full attack: ~17.47 damage
Bleeding Critical (2d6 per application per round, Average of 7 per round per crit)
Average of 1.31 crits per round, 9.17 average damage the first round, 18.34 the second, and so on.
Total Average Damage: 292.04 (Roughly +13.27% damage from power attack)
(Making some room here so it's easier to see the split between the characters)
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Male Human Fighter 14
NG Medium humanoid (Human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +1
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DEFENSE
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AC 33, touch 18, flat-footed 27 (10 Base, +13 Armor, +4 Dex, +2 Deflection, +2 Natural, +1 Dodge, +1 Insight)
hp 229 (13d10+97)
Fort +18, Ref +12, Will +9; (+4 vs. Fear effects)
Defensive Abilities Armor Training +3, Bravery +4
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee +36/+36/+31/+26 Greatsword (2d6+2d6+25) with power attack +32/+32/+27/+22 Greatsword (2d6+2d6+37)
Ranged -
Special Attacks Bleeding Critical
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STATISTICS
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Str 26, Dex 18, Con 20, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 7
Base Atk +14/+9/+4; CMB +22; CMD +36
Feats Bleeding Critical, Combat Reflexes, Critical Focus, Disruptive, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, Leadership, Lunge, Power Attack, Spellbreaker, Stand Still, Toughness, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization
Skills Intimidate +15
Languages Common
SQ Armor Training +3, Weapon Training(Blades, Heavy) +3, Weapon Training(Axes) +2, Weapon Training(Blunt) +1, Bravery +4
Combat Gear Belt of Physical Perfection +4, +4 Vicious Greatsword, +5 Full Plate, +2 Ring of Protection, +2 Amulet of Natural Armor, +4 Cloak of Resistance, Boots of Speed, Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
For the primary attack bonus it's:
+14 Bab
+1 Haste (Boots of Speed)
+2 Morale (Heroism)
+2 Competence (Bardic Song)
+2 Weapon Focus
+3 Weapon Training
+4 Enhancement (+4 Vicious Greatsword)
+8 Strength
Totaling +36 to hit (And of course -5/-10 on the iterative attacks)
And for damage it's:
+2 Competence (Bardic Song)
+3 Weapon Training
+4 Enhancement (+4 Vicious Greatsword)
+4 Weapon Specialization
+12 Strength (1.5)
+2d6 Greatsword
+2d6 Vicious
Totaling 2d6+2d6+25 Damage
On power attacks those would change to +32 to hit and an extra +12 damage.
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Average Damage (without Power Attack)
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Avg. damage on a non crit: 39
Avg. damage on a crit: 71
Probability of each attack being a hit or a crit:
Attack--Hit-----Crit----Average Damage
+36-----.76-----.19-----43.13 (x2)
+31-----.76-----.19-----43.13
+26-----.76-----.19-----43.13
(Hit chance has the chance of critting subtracted from it's total)
Bleeding Critical (2d6 per application per round, Average of 7 per round per crit)
Average of .57 crits per round, 3.99 average damage the first round, 7.98 the second, and so on.
Total Average Damage: 176.51
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Average Damage (with Power Attack)
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Avg. damage on a non crit: 51
Avg. damage on a crit: 95
Probability of each attack being a hit or a crit:
Attack--Hit-----Crit----Average Damage
+32-----.76-----.19-----56.81 (x2)
+27-----.76-----.19-----56.81
+22-----.66-----.19-----51.71
(Hit chance has the chance of critting subtracted from it's total)
Bleeding Critical (2d6 per application per round, Average of 7 per round per crit)
Average of .57 crits per round, 3.99 average damage the first round, 7.98 the second, and so on.
Total Average Damage: 226.13 (approx. +28.1% damage from power attack)
Just to look at eliminating some variables that might not sit well with everyone, here's the same two characters run without the Bard cohort, and with the Vicious weapons replaced with flat +4 and +5 weapons.
Even with everything eliminated but the flat bonuses all fighters receive from Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training, the two weapon fighter still outdamages the two handed weapon fighter against an average AC foe. It's fairly easy to determine what DR an opponent would need to bring these two to even as well. There's a 33.8 point difference in average damage, the two weapon fighter has 7 attacks a round, and the two handed weapon fighter has 4, so we can find the point of equilibrium by solving 4x + 33.8 = 7x, which gives us a DR value of 11.267, so up to 11 DR the two weapon fighter will deal more damage (in this specific example) and at 12 and up the Two Handed weapon fighter will deal more.
Primary attack bonus
+14 Bab
-2 Two Weapon Fighting
+1 Haste (Boots of Speed)
+2 Weapon Focus
+3 Weapon Training
+4 Enhancement (+4 Shortsword)
+8 Strength
Totaling +30 to hit
Damage
+3 Weapon Training
+4 Enhancement (+4 Shortsword)
+4 Weapon Specialization
+8 Strength
+1d6 Shortsword
Totaling 1d6+19 Damage
Power Attack
Main Hand +26/+26/+21/+16 for 1d6+27
Off Hand +26/+21/+16 for 1d6+23
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Average Damage (without Power Attack)
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Avg. damage on a non crit: 22.5
Avg. damage on a crit: 45
Probability of each attack being a hit or a crit:
Attack--Hit-----Crit----Average Damage
+30-----.76-----.19-----25.65 (x3)
+25-----.76-----.19-----25.65 (x2)
+20-----.57-----.18-----20.925 (x2)
(Hit chance has the chance of critting subtracted from it's total)
Two Weapon Rend (1d10+12, 17.5 average damage)
Chance of hitting at least once with the main hand: 1-(.05*.05*.05*.25) = 0.99996875 (99.996875%)
Chance of hitting at least once with off hand: 1-(.05*.05*.1) = 0.999375 (99.9375%)
Chance of hitting at least once with both hands: 0.99996875 * 0.999375 = 0.99934376953125 (~99.9344%)
Average Damage per full attack: ~17.489 damage
Bleeding Critical (2d6 per application per round, Average of 7 per round per crit)
Average of 1.32 crits per round, 9.24 average damage the first round, 18.48 the second, and so on.
Total Average Damage: 196.829
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Average Damage (with Power Attack)
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Avg. damage on a non crit: 30.5 (main hand) or 26.5 (off hand)
Avg. damage on a crit: 61 (main hand) or 53 (off hand)
Probability of each attack being a hit or a crit:
Attack--Hit-----Crit----Average Damage
+26-----.76-----.19-----34.77 (x2, main hand) + 30.21 (offhand)
+21-----.61-----.19-----30.195 (main hand) + 26.235 (offhand)
+16-----.40-----.15-----21.35 (main hand) + 18.55 (offhand)
(Hit chance has the chance of critting subtracted from it's total)
Two Weapon Rend (1d10+12, 17.5 average damage)
Chance of hitting at least once with the main hand: 1-(.05*.05*.2*.45) = 0.999775 (99.9775%)
Chance of hitting at least once with off hand: 1-(.05*.2*.45) = 0.9955 (99.55%)
Chance of hitting at least once with both hands: 0.999775 * 0.9955 = 0.9952760125 (~99.53%)
Average Damage per full attack: ~17.42 damage
Bleeding Critical (2d6 per application per round, Average of 7 per round per crit)
Average of 1.29 crits per round, 9.03 average damage the first round, 18.06 the second, and so on.
Total Average Damage: 222.62 (Roughly +13.1% damage from power attack)
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For the primary attack bonus it's:
+14 Bab
+1 Haste (Boots of Speed)
+2 Weapon Focus
+3 Weapon Training
+5 Enhancement (+5 Greatsword)
+8 Strength
Totaling +33 to hit (And of course -5/-10 on the iterative attacks)
And for damage it's:
+3 Weapon Training
+5 Enhancement (+5 Vicious Greatsword)
+4 Weapon Specialization
+12 Strength (1.5)
+2d6 Greatsword
Totaling 2d6+24 Damage
On power attacks those would change to +29 to hit and 2d6+36 damage.
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Average Damage (without Power Attack)
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Avg. damage on a non crit: 31.5
Avg. damage on a crit: 63
Probability of each attack being a hit or a crit:
Attack--Hit-----Crit----Average Damage
+33-----.76-----.19-----35.91 (x2)
+28-----.76-----.19-----35.91
+23-----.71-----.19-----34.335
(Hit chance has the chance of critting subtracted from it's total)
Bleeding Critical (2d6 per application per round, Average of 7 per round per crit)
Average of .57 crits per round, 3.99 average damage the first round, 7.98 the second, and so on.
Total Average Damage: 146.055
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Average Damage (with Power Attack)
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Avg. damage on a non crit: 43
Avg. damage on a crit: 86
Probability of each attack being a hit or a crit:
Attack--Hit-----Crit----Average Damage
+29-----.76-----.19-----49.02 (x2)
+24-----.76-----.19-----49.02
+19-----.52-----.18-----37.84
(Hit chance has the chance of critting subtracted from it's total)
Bleeding Critical (2d6 per application per round, Average of 7 per round per crit)
Average of .56 crits per round, 3.92 average damage the first round, 7.84 the second, and so on.
Total Average Damage: 188.82 (approx. +29.28% damage from power attack)
In 3.5, I played my share of Goliath Fighter Barbarian Frenzied Berserkers wielding impact minotaur greathammers with greater mighty whallop permanently affixed, and PA was my best friend.Are you sure you play a pen and paper >>roleplaying<< game???
See that pen and paper part? The reason that's need is for the math. Understanding the math behind the game is not a role playing crime. Nor is it a bad idea. Indeed if you understand the math involved you might understand why some options are available and why some are not, and how the whole works together better and avoid many problems that the less educated may have.