SRD: "These [divine bond] bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5". (In line with the paragraph on magic weapons: "A weapon can't have an enhancement bonus higher than +5.")
What does that mean for the overall bonus (modifier+abilities)of the weapon?
Could I, for example, still cast divine bond on a +5 vorpal weapon (=+10) to add specific abilities (worth up to a +6 modifier in level 20)eventually getting a +16 weapon?
Thanks for helping,
Turgan
Is my question too hard to answer or too "munchkin"? Or is the right answer absolutely obvious, but I am too blind to see?
I play a paladin of Lathander (9th level at the moment) and I only add +2 to my +3 weapon. I don't bother with holy or keen or similar effects, as I want to hit my opponent with Power Attacks. First it seemed strange to me to add +2 to a +3 weapon, but now, as I understand it, that is not a problem.
Now I'd like to know, if I can have a weapon with higher abilities than +10 (as that seems to be the highest added bonus for a magic weapon).
thanx
In this thread the ruling was that the max total bonuses a weapon can have, even from conditional modifiers such as spells is 10. This is outlined in the magic item section and is considered a hard limit.
Some other things that were brought up: If you have a weapon with 9 lvls of non-enhancement bonuses and is +1, Greater Magic Weapon does not increase its enhancement bonus, as it is already a +10 weapon. Nor can any other spells that add new qualities be cast on the weapon.
There was discussion of letting the spells and abilities over-write existing powers for their durration, but there was no official comment on that.
In this thread the ruling was that the max total bonuses a weapon can have, even from conditional modifiers such as spells is 10. This is outlined in the magic item section and is considered a hard limit.
Some other things that were brought up: If you have a weapon with 9 lvls of non-enhancement bonuses and is +1, Greater Magic Weapon does not increase its enhancement bonus, as it is already a +10 weapon. Nor can any other spells that add new qualities be cast on the weapon.
There was discussion of letting the spells and abilities over-write existing powers for their durration, but there was no official comment on that.
It was even weirder than that.
Some spells like greater magic weapon that add enhancement bonuses will fail if put on a +10 weapon.
Other spells like keen will still work on a +10 weapon. If you read the details of the keen spell, it does not give the weapon the keen property. It doubles the weapon's threat range and does not stack with keen or improved crit. Since it is not actually adding an enhancement bonus, it would work just fine.
Thank you both for your answers and the link.
In this thread the ruling was that the max total bonuses a weapon can have, even from conditional modifiers such as spells is 10. This is outlined in the magic item section and is considered a hard limit.
Some other things that were brought up: If you have a weapon with 9 lvls of non-enhancement bonuses and is +1, Greater Magic Weapon does not increase its enhancement bonus, as it is already a +10 weapon. Nor can any other spells that add new qualities be cast on the weapon.
There was discussion of letting the spells and abilities over-write existing powers for their durration, but there was no official comment on that.
Unfortunatelly this is correct. It's a silly rule though. And it's not completelly official yet.
Unfortunatelly this is correct. It's a silly rule though. And it's not completelly official yet.In this thread the ruling was that the max total bonuses a weapon can have, even from conditional modifiers such as spells is 10. This is outlined in the magic item section and is considered a hard limit.
Some other things that were brought up: If you have a weapon with 9 lvls of non-enhancement bonuses and is +1, Greater Magic Weapon does not increase its enhancement bonus, as it is already a +10 weapon. Nor can any other spells that add new qualities be cast on the weapon.
There was discussion of letting the spells and abilities over-write existing powers for their durration, but there was no official comment on that.
Yes, because when the people at Paizo say
To be clear, I didn't weigh in with my "opinion."
I weighed in with both the letter and the intent of the rule. Case closed.
its not official...
Unfortunatelly this is correct. It's a silly rule though. And it's not completelly official yet.In this thread the ruling was that the max total bonuses a weapon can have, even from conditional modifiers such as spells is 10. This is outlined in the magic item section and is considered a hard limit.
Some other things that were brought up: If you have a weapon with 9 lvls of non-enhancement bonuses and is +1, Greater Magic Weapon does not increase its enhancement bonus, as it is already a +10 weapon. Nor can any other spells that add new qualities be cast on the weapon.
There was discussion of letting the spells and abilities over-write existing powers for their durration, but there was no official comment on that.
Yes, because when the people at Paizo say
its not official...To be clear, I didn't weigh in with my "opinion."
I weighed in with both the letter and the intent of the rule. Case closed.
Too bad Josh is not on the rules team as I recall. (I may be wrong though)
Oh I remember this discussion. Good times, good times.
I don't know about the rules team but Josh does provide official rulings for the Pathfinder Society. So that means what he said in that thread would hold for the Society as well.
Too bad Josh is not on the rules team as I recall. (I may be wrong though)
Rules team or no he gave Paizo's official stance not his opinion.
Rules team or no he gave Paizo's official stance not his opinion.Too bad Josh is not on the rules team as I recall. (I may be wrong though)
No use arguing it all over again. So, you guys keep that ruling, I'll keep what is writen on the book.
That was the point, that is written in the book. Page 461 and page 468. The issue in the last thread came about when folks ignored the rules on those pages.
That was the point, that is written in the book. Page 461 and page 468. The issue in the last thread came about when folks ignored the rules on those pages.
If you say so....
That was the point, that is written in the book. Page 461 and page 468. The issue in the last thread came about when folks ignored the rules on those pages.If you say so....
The book says so, as does paizo. Folks were just not using all the rules. Like giving spell stuff the spell did not say it granted it, and ignoring the limits listed in the book.
That was the point, that is written in the book. Page 461 and page 468. The issue in the last thread came about when folks ignored the rules on those pages.If you say so....
I think he's required by law to have the last post. Gotta be a contract around here or somewhere.
I think he's required by law to have the last post. Gotta be a contract around here or somewhere.That was the point, that is written in the book. Page 461 and page 468. The issue in the last thread came about when folks ignored the rules on those pages.If you say so....
If the RAW was as obvious and crystal clear as SoS makes it out to be, then we wouldn't have need a long thread and a clarification from Paizo.
But that is neither here nor there, a stacking question, bows and arrows.
I have a +1 Holy, Thundering, Shocking Burst, Distant Longbow of Speed.
I have a +5 Human Bane Arrow of Brilliant Energy.
I shoot the arrow from my longbow. The rules explicitly state that the +1 and +5 enhancement bonuses will not stack. But what about the rest of the enhancements, do they stack, or does the +10 enhancement stacking limit hold here? Why or why not?
Eh it's in the book in 2 places what the max enhancement an item can have is. Not sure how much clearer "X can never have total enhancement above +10" can be
Unless something states it does not use the standard rule , then it does. So I still don't understand why folks have a hard time understanding what is plainly written.
If it was unclear I would understand the confusion but when it's in two spots and not hidden at all, I just don't understand how it could be anymore clear.
Edit: Not trying to be snarky, I just really am at a lose how that is not clear.
Eh it's in the book in 2 places what the max enhancement an item can have is. Not sure how much clearer "X can never have total enhancement above +10" can be
Unless something states it does not use the standard rule , then it does. So I still don't understand why folks have a hard time understanding what is plainly written.
If it was unclear I would understand the confusion but when it's in two spots and not hidden at all, I just don't understand how it could be anymore clear.
Edit: Not trying to be snarky, I just really am at a lose how that is not clear.
So you are saying that I can't use my bow with my arrow, because the total enhancements to the attack exceed +10?
Page 486. the highist bounes of Ammo or weapon...they do not stack. In your case above it would be a +5 Human Bane Arrow of Brilliant Energy shot as it is higher then your weapon.
A waste of money really, but yes by RAW your weapon does nothing as your ammo is better or higher attack mod
Your arrow simply can not carry any more enchantments then it has.
Edit: To clarify normally your arrow would take the Holy, Thundering, Shocking Burst with the arrow also, but as I said the arrow it's self already is maxed out and simply can hold no more magic
This is not my opinion , this is written on the pages I listed
So you are saying that I can't use my bow with my arrow, because the total enhancements to the attack exceed +10?
From D20PFSRD:
Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.You can use them together, they just don't stack.
Page 486. the highist bounes of Ammo or weapon...they do not stack. In your case above it would be a +5 Human Bane Arrow of Brilliant Energy shot as it is higher then your weapon.
A waste of money really, but yes by RAW your weapon does nothing as your ammo is better or higher attack mod
Your arrow simply can not carry any more enchantments then it has.
Edit: To clarify normally your arrow would take the Holy, Thundering, Shocking Burst with the arrow also, but as I said the arrow it's self already is maxed out and simply can hold no more magic
This is not my opinion , this is written on the pages I listed
From the PFSRD here
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon.
Like I said, the rules explicitly states that the enhancement bonuses do not stack between weapons and ammunition. Thus the +1 will not stack with the +5, you will only get the +5. The rules also explicitly state that a weapon's enhancement bonus cannot exceed +5. Special abilities have a different limit from enhancement bonuses.
So are you saying that a +1 flaming arrow becomes a non-flaming arrow when fired from a +2 bow?
Man your arrow may carry up to +10 enhancements. Or your bow can give up to +10 enhancements.
You can not go over +10 that is the max any magic weapon can have ever. Your arrow shot from a +2 bow would be a +2 flaming arrow as it would be less then +10. 2 from the bow and flaming from the arrow , so they arrow carry's a total of +3 for that attack
Anyhow you look at it you can not add the total up past +10. Special ability are limited to a total of +9 really, as you need a +1 to even add them and no weapon or armor can go past +10 by any means in core.
Man your arrow may carry up to +10 enhancements. Or your bow can give up to +10 enhancements.
You can not go over +10 that is the max any magic weapon can have ever. Your arrow shot from a +2 bow would be a +2 flaming arrow as it would be less then +10. 2 from the bow and flaming from the arrow , so they arrow carry's a total of +3 for that attack
Anyhow you look at it you can not add the total up past +10. Special ability are limited to a total of +9 really, as you need a +1 to even add them and no weapon or armor can go past +10 by any means in core.
Ok, so we agree that special property enhancements from a bow and arrow DO stack. Good, we have some common ground then.
So, +5 Human Bane Arrow of Brilliant energy fired from a +1 Distance, Holy, Thundering, Shocking Burst Longbow of Speed. What stacks, what doesn't? Who gets to decide what effect simply don't happen, the player or the DM? Can the stacking of effects change from 1 shot to the next? IE one shot is a +5 Human bane, brilliant energy shot, the next shot it a +5 Holy, Human bane, Shocking Burst Shot, then the next one is a +2 Holy, Distance, Shocking Burst of Speed shot.
Since, the "of Speed" doesn't actually add anything to the arrow, it simply give the attack another bow shot, does it stack? What about the Distance effect, it gives no actual bonus to the shot, but just changes the range increments?
What if the arrow was just a +5 arrow? What effects would get applied from the bow, and what would get ignored?
On that I would say the arrow is the only thing that counts. Its a +5, your bow is a +1, so we know that the +5 is used. Now as bane and Brilliant energy are on the arrow, they would be counted off first
Which gives us +10 for your attack. Now I would count the distance as it is on the bow not the arrow, however for damage your maxed out and for that arrow Holy,shocking burst or thundering would not count
always count off the arrows enhancements first. Although I do see one issue in the case of something like a +2 brilliant energy,frost holy human bane arrow fired from a +5 bow. In which case the +5 simply can not stack on the arrow. Myself I would rule the +5 for attack as it's on the bow, but +2 for damage as it's on the arrow.
But an arrow that costly is a rare thing anyhow. still I can see how folks would be unsure in that case
Really though a +5 human bane Brilliant energy arrow is damned high and made to kill a man :) so the loose of the other three are not a huge deal. I would coat it with poison as well
Can you really have a +1 weapon with +9's worth of abilities? I am still used to v3.5 having limited you to +5 enhancement bonus and +5 worth of abilities.
Also, not allowing magic abilities to stack between ammo and projectile weapon (assuming differing properties) is silly.
Yep total mod can not be more then +10, but ya need at lest a +1 to add ability. So +9 is your max ability.
no stacking is for a few things, stops the +10[ +5 arrow, +5 bow) stuff for one. But the +10 max counts for all weapons and is a hard limit.
I can see an issues as I said above about what counts vs arrow/bow but counting the arrows's mods off first seems to be a good rule, if unofficial.
On that I would say the arrow is the only thing that counts. Its a +5, your bow is a +1, so we know that the +5 is used. Now as bane and Brilliant energy are on the arrow, they would be counted off first
Which gives us +10 for your attack. Now I would count the distance as it is on the bow not the arrow, however for damage your maxed out and for that arrow Holy,shocking burst or thundering would not count
always count off the arrows enhancements first. Although I do see one issue in the case of something like a +2 brilliant energy,frost holy human bane arrow fired from a +5 bow. In which case the +5 simply can not stack on the arrow. Myself I would rule the +5 for attack as it's on the bow, but +2 for damage as it's on the arrow.
But an arrow that costly is a rare thing anyhow. still I can see how folks would be unsure in that case
Really though a +5 human bane Brilliant energy arrow is damned high and made to kill a man :) so the loose of the other three are not a huge deal. I would coat it with poison as well
So, a +1 Holy, Thundering, Shocking Burst, Distance Longbow of Speed firing a +5 arrow comes out as?
The speed doesn't actually add anything to the arrow, so would you get the extra attack no matter what? What about special abilities like seeking or distance? Are those enhancements that actually get applied to the arrow, or are the bonuses that affect the wielder?
By RAW yes it's out, your at +10 before you notch the arrow But I would most likely allow that one in a game. A bit cheesy perhaps, but the arrow does not go over +10, But the attack would be stuck at +1 I think, so outside of Raw I can see an argument for it.
I'd let the special abilites stack. They're from the bow and the arrow, not just the arrow. The enhancement bonus limit is specifically spelled out, but the special abilities are different effects, and are not enhancement bonuses.
By RAW yes it's out, your at +10 before you notch the arrow But I would most likely allow that one in a game. A bit cheesy perhaps, but the arrow does not go over +10, But the attack would be stuck at +1 I think, so outside of Raw I can see an argument for it.
Being a DM myself, I certainly know what it's like to have to limit players. However, if your player has that kind of money to toss onto some gear, it's your own fault as the DM for allowing it. Don't play with the rules and "interpret" your own ruling based on a mistake you made. IF you gave them the gear, don't rob them of it with rules. Find a way to steal/sunder/disjunction it. Stop being a noob DM SoS and own up to your error.
I'd let the special abilites stack. They're from the bow and the arrow, not just the arrow. The enhancement bonus limit is specifically spelled out, but the special abilities are different effects, and are not enhancement bonuses.
I agree. It doesn't make sense to spend that kind of money on that gear only to not have it work.
Stop being a noob DM SoS and own up to your error.
Dude I have no clue what your talking about. W are talking about RAW and stacking. In such a case by RAW +10 is the hard limit. Now you can allow it to go past that but +10 in the limit in a RAW game {Rare outside of something like PFS}
So no, I made no error. He asked and I gave him both the RAW answer and what I would do if that came up in my game.
By RAW yes it's out, your at +10 before you notch the arrow But I would most likely allow that one in a game. A bit cheesy perhaps, but the arrow does not go over +10, But the attack would be stuck at +1 I think, so outside of Raw I can see an argument for it.
Actually, my question was a little more specific.
I fire a single +5 arrow from a +1 uber bow of stupid bonuses. The exact bonuses don't matter. If the arrow picks up all of the abilities from the bow, it will be over a +10. So the arrow will pick up some of the bows bonuses, but it can't pick up all of the bonuses. What special abilities bow the bow pick up? Who decides and how to they decide?
Now we take it further into what about abilities that do not actually enhance the arrow like speed? Do you get those no matter what, or do they take the place of other bonuses?
Finally, what about speciality items. A lot of the special abilities on the special items do not have an enhancement bonuses listed, does this mean they stack with everything? For example the oathbow is a +2 comp longbow, that part is easy, but how does the "oath" count in terms of the +10 limit? Is it a +5 bonus, or does it count as a +1 "bane" type of bonus, or is it free because of all of the penalties? How would an item like the oathbow interact with highly magical arrows?
Something like the oath part of the Oath Bow wouldn't count towards the WEBE limit. It's similar to the magical bonuses you can give armor for a flat price without adding anything to their WEBE.
*WEBE = Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent
Officially there is no answer for that. I myself would go in order, starting with the arrow until ya ran out of space. But it would be best to ask your GM how he would handle it as the only official thing we have is no more then +10.
This item should be added to the FAQ I am thinking. As we know the limit but not how it's selected.
The bigger issue regarding weapon enhancements for our group pertains to the paladin's divine bond ability and how it isn't useful for a high level paladin with a very nice (+10) weapon. But the ruling is the ruling, and the ability does have its uses.
I don't ever see the bow/arrow examples shown above coming up in our games. Although it's a neat thought experiment nonetheless.
But in the above extreme bow/arrow examples, is there not an exemption to the +10 max enhancement ruling for epic weapons? If you have something as tremendous as those bow/arrow combinations, could they not be epic items and allowed to stack? I'm not up on epic rules at all.
The bigger issue regarding weapon enhancements for our group pertains to the paladin's divine bond ability and how it isn't useful for a high level paladin with a very nice (+10) weapon. But the ruling is the ruling, and the ability does have its uses.
I don't ever see the bow/arrow examples shown above coming up in our games. Although it's a neat thought experiment nonetheless.
But in the above extreme bow/arrow examples, is there not an exemption to the +10 max enhancement ruling for epic weapons? If you have something as tremendous as those bow/arrow combinations, could they not be epic items and allowed to stack? I'm not up on epic rules at all.
You don't see things like this very often because magic ammo isn't very cost effective. Although you will sometimes come across ammo like this that is usually something the DM gave to an assassin that he was supposed to use on the players, but never got the chance(hence the human bane). I love giving uber ammo as loot to players because of the agony they have over when to use it.
I don't see anything in Divine Bond that says it cannot be used on a bow, and I could see a player casting GMW on 50 arrows to make them +5.
So I have a +1 longbow, I use divine bond on it to make is a +1 Holy, Flaming Longbow of Speed, then I get 50 +5 arrows via the wizard casting GMW on them for me. If you allow everything to stack, you end up as a +11 bonus(+5, Holy, Flaming, Speed), but speed doesn't apply to the arrows, so...
These items do not qualify as epic items and thus must conform to the normal limits.
Something like the oath part of the Oath Bow wouldn't count towards the WEBE limit. It's similar to the magical bonuses you can give armor for a flat price without adding anything to their WEBE.
*WEBE = Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent
Ok, what about mithril full plate of speed? If you look at the pricing, it is the exact same price as +4 mithril full plate, which implies to me that the "of speed" is equal to a +3 bonus, but is it? Is it free, or does it count toward the +10 limit?
I really don't understand how you guys can read the rules, asume that +10 is the limit period and think that's fine. Breaking not only the divine bond, but the whole Arcane Archer prestige class, that's simply absurd.
I agree that Bow and Arrow don't stack though. Or at least shouldn't.
Except ya know it says so in the book
PRD
" A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10."
Again not being snarky, but it is in the book. Not sure how much plainer it could get, without repeating that line 15 or 20 times
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I've always allowed class abilities (and magical abilities from arrows) to stack with that on the weapon beyond a +10 total bonus to allow the ability and extra price of arrows to maintain usefulness.
I interpret the line from the magic weapons section as an indication of permanent bonus on a single item. Sure, this allows a lot of properties to stack, but it is expensive in either gold or class abilities and the amount of properties that can stack is limited. (You can't, for example, stack the various elemental abilities as activating one deactivates that others).
In short: I agree with Xum that assuming that +10 is the limit and breaking two class abilities that are integral to the class (one of which you cannot attain until you've already started out-dating the property).
Except ya know it says so in the book
PRD
" A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10."Again not being snarky, but it is in the book. Not sure how much plainer it could get, without repeating that line 15 or 20 times
Ok. You assume that if it doesn't say you can, then you can´t.
I work the otherway around, if it doesn't say you can't then you can.
You know, like in real life, stop signs, no smoking signs and all that.
And again, aside from that, I think it's funny and sad, for guys as smart as you to believe it's ok to totally destroy a major class ability and a whole class.
Eh unless it says it does not work by the normal rules then it does. No where in those ability did it say anything about ignoring the standard rule
No where In magic weapon or greater magic weapon does it say to ignore the standard rule.
Your looking at this backward. You should be looking for those signs that say you may do this. Ya know like in life the signs that say "One way" or "Do not turn right" Signs that change the normal rules. As it stands nothing listed says it changes the standard rules. So it does not.
But, if ya want to allow it to work like that in your game, more power to ya. Long as it works for you and all. Heh I have yet to meet anyhow home group that uses RAW anyhow, I know I don't.
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Actually, the rules are combination of both approaches (much like most real life rules). There are standard rules with exceptions written, some exceptions allow things, some deny them.
However, some rules are written implicitly for certain circumstances. In my opinion the maximum of +10 for a magic item is referring to the item portion, not the magic portion. Since these are not things that permanently enhance the item, I would posit that they do not count against the normal +10 limitation.
Again, of course, my main argument is that the divine bond: weapon ability becomes an extremely circumstantial and (mostly) useless ability at high level, and most of the arcane archer's abilities are completely nullified by the lack of stacking. Also, nowhere in the book explains how over-maxed abilities are dealt with to "trim" them, which would be necessary for a +10 equivalent bow firing a +10 equivalent arrow, for example. Or any number of other situations, such as casting Greater Magic Weapon on a +1 weapon with +9 worth of equivalents or a paladin using their divine bond to enhance the weapon.
Diplomacy Check:
Bah! My pitiful +2 modifier is useless!
Actually, the rules are combination of both approaches (much like most real life rules). There are standard rules with exceptions written, some exceptions allow things, some deny them.
However, some rules are written implicitly for certain circumstances. In my opinion the maximum of +10 for a magic item is referring to the item portion, not the magic portion. Since these are not things that permanently enhance the item, I would posit that they do not count against the normal +10 limitation.
Again, of course, my main argument is that the divine bond: weapon ability becomes an extremely circumstantial and (mostly) useless ability at high level, and most of the arcane archer's abilities are completely nullified by the lack of stacking. Also, nowhere in the book explains how over-maxed abilities are dealt with to "trim" them, which would be necessary for a +10 equivalent bow firing a +10 equivalent arrow, for example. Or any number of other situations, such as casting Greater Magic Weapon on a +1 weapon with +9 worth of equivalents or a paladin using their divine bond to enhance the weapon.Diplomacy Check:
1d20 + 2
Bah! My pitiful +2 modifier is useless!
+1, that's how the book reads to me.
"Do not turn right"
Exactly my point, if it doesn't say you can't, then you can.
+1, that's how the book reads to me.Actually, the rules are combination of both approaches (much like most real life rules). There are standard rules with exceptions written, some exceptions allow things, some deny them.
However, some rules are written implicitly for certain circumstances. In my opinion the maximum of +10 for a magic item is referring to the item portion, not the magic portion. Since these are not things that permanently enhance the item, I would posit that they do not count against the normal +10 limitation.
Again, of course, my main argument is that the divine bond: weapon ability becomes an extremely circumstantial and (mostly) useless ability at high level, and most of the arcane archer's abilities are completely nullified by the lack of stacking. Also, nowhere in the book explains how over-maxed abilities are dealt with to "trim" them, which would be necessary for a +10 equivalent bow firing a +10 equivalent arrow, for example. Or any number of other situations, such as casting Greater Magic Weapon on a +1 weapon with +9 worth of equivalents or a paladin using their divine bond to enhance the weapon.Diplomacy Check:
1d20 + 2
Bah! My pitiful +2 modifier is useless!
That is exactly how it reads to me as well, but the current official clarification from Paizo in the thread linked earlier is that the +10 limit is an absolute limit for temporary bonuses as well.
As I pointed out earlier, it puts things like the Keen Spell and Greater Magic Weapon in a weird place. The Keen Spell always stacks because it does not actually add an enhancement bonus, GMW on the other hand may fail if the item already has too many enhancements.
I am still not sure that we know how to handle how magic arrows stack with a bow of speed/distance/seeking either. Are those enchantments giving a bonus to the arrow or the wielder?
I am also unsure how to handle special magic items. Since the enhancement bonuses on a lot of those items is not listed, do they count toward the limit? Not to mention, I am very unsure how to handle adding permanent bonuses(which we would all agree are effected by the +10 limit) to special items in a lot of cases.
The point behind my questions is that there are no rules for handling bonus collisions when you exceed +10. We are having to invent rules just to adhere to the rules. Does that seem wrong to anyone besides me?
