There's an interesting bit of wording (or lack thereof) in the Trapfinding Rogue class feature and I wanted to know if I'm reading between the lines too much here or not.
Trapfinding: A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1).
Now, it seems pretty straightforward. However most other class features that use a similar progression explicitly state that only levels in that particular class count towards this bonus. For instance:
Bardic Knowledge (Ex): A bard adds half his class level (minimum 1) to all Knowledge skill checks and may make all Knowledge skill checks untrained.
Ki Pool (Su): At 4th level, a monk gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in a monk's ki pool is equal to 1/2 his monk level + his Wisdom modifier.
Thoughts everyone? Is a single level dip in Rogue good enough to make you an expert trapfinder, or should we assume the word 'Rogue' or 'Class' is implied in that description?
There's an interesting bit of wording (or lack thereof) in the Trapfinding Rogue class feature and I wanted to know if I'm reading between the lines too much here or not.
Trapfinding: A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1).Now, it seems pretty straightforward. However most other class features that use a similar progression explicitly state that only levels in that particular class count towards this bonus.
Thoughts everyone? Is a single level dip in Rogue good enough to make you an expert trapfinder, or should we assume the word 'Rogue' or 'Class' is implied in that description?
At the beginning of the classes section it says that, unless otherwise explicitly stated, class benefits only use levels in that class for determining the benefit provided.
I don't have the book in front of me at the moment but I'll try to reply shortly with a page number.
At the beginning of the classes section it says that, unless otherwise explicitly stated, class benefits only use levels in that class for determining the benefit provided.I don't have the book in front of me at the moment but I'll try to reply shortly with a page number.
I see it, top of page 31, under Multiclassing. I'm not sure that it clears it up though:
The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.
The bolded word throws it into doubt... :-/
The paragraph is at the top of page 31 in the multi-classing section.
Here it is from the PRD:
Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.
So I'd say you can't dip into rogue for the bonus to trapfinding and have it stack with all your class levels since it is a class ability. In order for it to consider all your class levels from any class it would need to specify that the numeric benefits are based on character level.
Yeah, if something doesn't specify that it doesn't follow that rule then it follows that rule by default. In order for it to take in more levels than the rogue levels it would need to say in the ability description to use character level or hit dice instead of class level. Since it doesn't explicitly state character level when it says "her level," it automatically implies rogue level.
Trapfinding: A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1).
Does Trapfinding give a bonus to all Disable Device checks, or only when specifically dealing with traps?
Logically it seems like it should only apply to traps, but the way the sentence is worded leaves me wondering since it seems to explicitly details what part of perception it works with, and then tags on disable device in a rather unspecific manner.
Several people I've discussed it with believe that Trapfinding's bonus to disable device is indeed universal because of the wording.
When looking up Disable Device in the core rules Trapfinding is mentioned but only that it allows for magic traps to be disabled.
I concur that while the name might be confusing, the wording in the core rules implies that Trapfinding's bonus to disable device applies to locks and sabotage as well.
As Trapfinding is a Rogue ability, it advances according to your Rogue level.
It says 'most class abilities', so if there's an exception it will be stated when it's character level, ie. a Wizard's familiar's HP.
Several people I've discussed it with believe that Trapfinding's bonus to disable device is indeed universal because of the wording.
When looking up Disable Device in the core rules Trapfinding is mentioned but only that it allows for magic traps to be disabled.
I concur that while the name might be confusing, the wording in the core rules implies that Trapfinding's bonus to disable device applies to locks and sabotage as well.
I've been looking into this recently, because I think this might be an issue in my game shortly. I think the wording is ambiguous, but the intent is that only applies to traps. The support for this is looking at the rogue iconic Merisel in the Crypt of the Everflame.
She's a Rogue 1, with a 17 Dex and Disable Device listed as +7 (+1 rank +3 class skill +3 dex). When there is a universal bonus, I normally see it added in (such as the +2 to perception for elves).
Ergo, I believe it should only apply to disabling traps.
At the beginning of the classes section it says that, unless otherwise explicitly stated, class benefits only use levels in that class for determining the benefit provided.I don't have the book in front of me at the moment but I'll try to reply shortly with a page number.
I see it, top of page 31, under Multiclassing. I'm not sure that it clears it up though:
The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.The bolded word throws it into doubt... :-/
Don't read too much into the word "most" in that sentence.
What it means is "every class ability that doesn't follow this rule is explicitly noted in that class ability but most class abilities do not have an explicit exception."
What it does not mean is "some class abilities don't follow this rule and you have to guess which ones; in fact, this rule really means nothing because we put the word most in here to imply that we have hidden sneaky class abilities that break this rule without telling you about it."
In other words, "most" is not in that sentence to call the rule into doubt; it's only there because it would be wrong to say "all" class abilities follow that rule when, clearly, a few class abilities have explicitly noted exceptions.