Hello fair folks at paizo. And stout folks. And human folks too.
I spent a good deal of time out of this forum because of real life issues (work, college, my campaign, etc etc), leaving the forum in around the time that the playtest got to the feats, if I remember correctly. And that was no problem, because my help was limited to just one prestige class at that point.
But then, now that the game is on, and I'm playing it, and saying to my players "Know this feat? It works better now" and those kinds of things, I'm in need of a little something.
The point is: I have one little deranged player who plays a tiefling in my game (the races of my world are quite different, and the tieflings look in abilities closer to the Hell...hellpawn...hellchild...helladon'trememberthename, the race in the Fiendish Codex II), but the part that is important is that he's got Craft (Poison) (I keep it separate from alchemy for tas te reasons), and of course wants to make some poisons.
Looking at the new poisons I was happy to see that they look a lot more like real life poisons, and the fact that they seem to have a more robust design method: The fort CD is the same for the craft, they have a onset, delivery and strenght.
So I figured out that it would be nice to know wich are the guidelines to create new poisons. But I didn't find any.
Since this new poison system is more robust to work with, did someone around here see some guideline anywhere? Did I miss something? Is there this kind of thing anywhere?
If not, I think I'll have to create my own design guidelines, but if this is the case, do someone have a good idea for it?
Thanks in advance, and welcome me back to the forum.
Welcome back to the boards!
The core rules do cover crafting poisons - although the rules use Craft (alchemy) - on page 558. Note that without skill mastery or an equivalent ability, the character has to roll the craft check due to the risk of rolling a natural 1. (This is moot if the character is immune to poison or has the poison use class feature.)
Hello fair folks at paizo. And stout folks. And human folks too.
I spent a good deal of time out of this forum because of real life issues (work, college, my campaign, etc etc), leaving the forum in around the time that the playtest got to the feats, if I remember correctly. And that was no problem, because my help was limited to just one prestige class at that point.
But then, now that the game is on, and I'm playing it, and saying to my players "Know this feat? It works better now" and those kinds of things, I'm in need of a little something.
The point is: I have one little deranged player who plays a tiefling in my game (the races of my world are quite different, and the tieflings look in abilities closer to the Hell...hellpawn...hellchild...helladon'trememberthename, the race in the Fiendish Codex II), but the part that is important is that he's got Craft (Poison) (I keep it separate from alchemy for tas te reasons), and of course wants to make some poisons.
Looking at the new poisons I was happy to see that they look a lot more like real life poisons, and the fact that they seem to have a more robust design method: The fort CD is the same for the craft, they have a onset, delivery and strenght.
So I figured out that it would be nice to know wich are the guidelines to create new poisons. But I didn't find any.
Since this new poison system is more robust to work with, did someone around here see some guideline anywhere? Did I miss something? Is there this kind of thing anywhere?
If not, I think I'll have to create my own design guidelines, but if this is the case, do someone have a good idea for it?
Thanks in advance, and welcome me back to the forum.
The Complete Adventurer had rules for crafting poisons.
Welcome back to the boards!
The core rules do cover crafting poisons - although the rules use Craft (alchemy) - on page 558. Note that without skill mastery or an equivalent ability, the character has to roll the craft check due to the risk of rolling a natural 1. (This is moot if the character is immune to poison or has the poison use class feature.)
So many thanks for the imput, friend, but as I stated in the title, my question is not about crafting the poison. But creating new poisons. Like, I'm the DM, and I want to create a new poison, or better yet, give a balanced price to a poison of my own creation for my game world.
I'm very sorry if I wasn't clear, my non-native english is way too redundant.
Welcome back to the boards!
The core rules do cover crafting poisons - although the rules use Craft (alchemy) - on page 558. Note that without skill mastery or an equivalent ability, the character has to roll the craft check due to the risk of rolling a natural 1. (This is moot if the character is immune to poison or has the poison use class feature.)
So many thanks for the imput, friend, but as I stated in the title, my question is not about crafting the poison. But creating new poisons. Like, I'm the DM, and I want to create a new poison, or better yet, give a balanced price to a poison of my own creation for my game world.
I'm very sorry if I wasn't clear, my non-native english is way too redundant.
Ah - well, the principle is pretty straightforward. Set the Craft DC to the Fortitude DC of the poison. I would gauge the gp value of the poison as the 'new' ones compare to the ones on the chart on page 559 and go from there to suit your tastes.
I vaguely recall an OGL 3.0 book that had a more structured method of determining home-brewed poisons - it is in a book I no longer have, sadly.
By the Nine Divines!
Not the craft thing fair people. Please. I'm speaking about creating new poisons for my game. Not crafting for my character.
I remember this book. It was the Quintessential Rogue, or something like that by mongoose.
But then the mighty Jason could see this and say "Io, and behold, for I bring the formula I used, for it is this simple one. Each price brings some "slots" that you can, and should, use to set the DC, the damage and so forth. For you can, and should, have a poison with good damage and, behold, crappy DC, or a poison with crap damage but, behold, incredible @##-ripping damage. For this is your right, and I bestow it upon thee" or something like that.
I remember this book. It was the Quintessential Rogue, or something like that by mongoose.
But then the mighty Jason could see this and say "Io, and behold, for I bring the formula I used, for it is this simple one. Each price brings some "slots" that you can, and should, use to set the DC, the damage and so forth. For you can, and should, have a poison with good damage and, behold, crappy DC, or a poison with crap damage but, behold, incredible @##-ripping damage. For this is your right, and I bestow it upon thee" or something like that.
Yeah, I think so ...
But ...
D*mn, I am not sure ... there was a set of 4 hardcovers that had stuff one could earn in them ... and they weren't Mongoose.
*beats head against keyboard*
Thanks for trying to remember for be.
But in any case, I love the poisons in PF, and I'll probably have to create my own guidelines based on the prices...
I'll probably create it in some hours of calculations and post here for evaluation.
Thanks for trying to remember for be.
But in any case, I love the poisons in PF, and I'll probably have to create my own guidelines based on the prices...
I'll probably create it in some hours of calculations and post here for evaluation.
I'd suggest something along the lines of the following in your formulations:
delivery method (most to least expensive) - inhaled, contact, injury, ingested. Your PC will probably mostly make use of injury poisons, later taking forays into contact and inhaled.
strength - the saving throw DC, presumably however much above or below 10 the DC is.
onset time - the listed onset times are pretty dominantly followed - but not always. Perhaps faster-acting poisons (ingested working faster than normal, for example) are more difficult - and thus, cost more.
effect - the amount(s) of ability damage or drain and/or any other conditions the poison delivers. A "neurotoxin cocktail" that deals all the ability damage types plus several conditions would be mind-bogglingly expensive!
frequency - not only how often the poison cycles, but how frequent those cycles are.
cure - weaker poisons seldom require more than one successful saving throw to throw off - stronger ones typically require two consecutive successful saving throws. Rare poisons that require three or more successful saving throws, or that require either a high-level magical curative (heal or the like) or a combination of 'standard' magical curatives (such as remove curse and neutralize poison that succeed against the poison's DC) are going to be pretty pricey.
Good luck, and let us know what you come up with!
Thanks for trying to remember for be.
But in any case, I love the poisons in PF, and I'll probably have to create my own guidelines based on the prices...
I'll probably create it in some hours of calculations and post here for evaluation.
I'd suggest something along the lines of the following in your formulations:
delivery method (most to least expensive) - inhaled, contact, injury, ingested. Your PC will probably mostly make use of injury poisons, later taking forays into contact and inhaled.
strength - the saving throw DC, presumably however much above or below 10 the DC is.
onset time - the listed onset times are pretty dominantly followed - but not always. Perhaps faster-acting poisons (ingested working faster than normal, for example) are more difficult - and thus, cost more.
effect - the amount(s) of ability damage or drain and/or any other conditions the poison delivers. A "neurotoxin cocktail" that deals all the ability damage types plus several conditions would be mind-bogglingly expensive!
frequency - not only how often the poison cycles, but how frequent those cycles are.
cure - weaker poisons seldom require more than one successful saving throw to throw off - stronger ones typically require two consecutive successful saving throws. Rare poisons that require three or more successful saving throws, or that require either a high-level magical curative (heal or the like) or a combination of 'standard' magical curatives (such as remove curse and neutralize poison that succeed against the poison's DC) are going to be pretty pricey.
Good luck, and let us know what you come up with!
That's pretty much the whole idea I had. But then, thanks for putting it here.
Most important point I can think of is that Cure: 2 saves is much stronger than Cure: 1 save, no matter the DC. And stronger DC poisons shouldn't *necessarily* have 2 saves. Remember these are consecutive saves. A persistent, low DC, poison would actually be quite interesting
Hello again those who helped.
Yesterday I was taking a look at the poisons, and was really puzzled on how they came to those costs. So I tried to find similar poisons, and came to two interesting examples: The giant was and the giant scorpion. They do almost the same thing, but one has DC 18, costing 210 and the other has DC 17, costing 200. of course, they cause damage to different abilit scores that aren't Constitution.
Looking at the simplest point first, I searched for an injury poison without ability drain, special effect or 2 saves, and found the weakest of all, the small centipede poison.
With some work I tried to scalate it to the Giant Wasp Poison, since both cause Dex damage, and later with the Black Adder Venom and the Greenblood Oil. I tried to make a "base poison" where you could add factors that would increase the final cost, and came with this. I don't know how much right this is, but reverse-enginering the Giant Wasp, Black Adder and Greenblood oil I came with very approximate costs, while the others missed the cost by some 10 or 20 gp.
This is, however, only for injury poisons, for now, as I don't have time yet to look at the other ones.
Assume that you will work with this base. It was created reverse-enginering other poisons:
Basic Injury Poison - Fort DC 10 - 1/turn for 2 turns - Damage 1 point of phisical ability damage - 1 Save cures - 50GP
Then you can add factors, wich you increase the basic cost:
A - Fortitude DC
10: +0 gp
11: +10 gp
12: +20 gp
13: +30 gp
14: +40 gp
15: +50 gp
16: +65 gp
17: +80 gp
18: +95 gp
19: +110 gp
20: +125 gp
B - Frequency
1/turn for 2 turns: +0 gp
1/turn for 4 turns: +20 gp
1/turn for 6 turns: +40 gp
C - Damage
1 Phisical Ability Damage: +0 gp
1d2 Phisical Ability Damage: +20 gp
1d3 Phisical Ability Damage: +50 gp
1d4 Phisical Ability Damage: +75 gp
With these numbers, most of the injury poisons can be made missing around 10-30 gp on their base price, with some being exactly right.
I can't figure yet the price for the "2 consecutive saves" poisons. Trying with the Wyvern poison I came to the conslusion that they should cost around ten times the price of the poison, but I'm just assuming...
So, please try a little and make this small trying of mine into pieces. I really want some help with this (it's hard to come to these numbers...).
What do you people think?
You need Poisoncraft, from Blue Devil games. (There's also Pale Designs, a Poisoner's Handbook, from another d20 publisher, but not as good.) That's the book for the evil poisoner. I'm pretty sure that the book is not on the market since it's going to be released for 4E. However, if you can get your hands on a print copy it's great stuff. I'll try to look for my copy in the next couple days.