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Do you know when you make a saving throw?
For Example, A bard is in his room at the local inn and casts detect thoughts before he goes downstairs where a number of people are gathered. Once downstairs he begins probing the thoughts of the inns patrons.
1)Do the people whose minds have been probed by the bard know when they made a will save?
2) Do they know if they failed or succeed their will save and dose it make a difference?
I have typically run games where in circumstances like this, if you failed a save then don't know a spell was directed on you. On the other hand if you succeed in making the saving throw then you do know you just made a will save (But not the source or the spell).
What are the pathfinder rules in this circumstance???
Scott.
We play exactly the same way as you. I don't know the official rules on this though.
I don't think there are any official rules on it.
I'd extrapolate from the old suggestion that if you make a save successfully vs. a mind-affecting spell, you feel some sort of tingle or other mild sensory phenomena telling you 'yes, someone just tried something, but it failed'. In the case of detect thoughts, a failed save probably tells the victims nothing, but a successful save might give them a glimpse of the bard's thoughts for a split-second, enough to make them go 'huh? What was that?'.
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I'd say your rule is a good guideline, if they fail their save, then the bard got in w/o being noticed (though some are going to be noticed if they fail their save, manifesting mind thrust, someone is going to notice the xd10 damamge if they fail their save).
As to if they make their save, if you want to favour the casters, allow the target a perception check to notice something amiss. At that point, give 'em a spellcraft check to know exactly what they were hit with.
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I've been curious about this, too. Is it specific to the spell, e.g. Detect Thoughts is passive, so no, but Charm is active, so yes? What about SR?
OK. Charm person: Now apply the metamagic feats Still Spell and Silent Spell to Charm Person. My Wizard sitting in said inn casts Charm person with the feat above so no one is aware he cast the spell. The target fails his save and my wizard has a new best friend. The target makes his save and is only aware he made save... Yes... No...?
SR:
1) My target is a cleric with Spell Resistance; the Charm Person spell penetrates his spell resistance and the cleric fails his will save (I have a kick ass wizard), Cleric boy is my new best friend.
2) My target is a cleric with Spell Resistance; the Charm Person spell penetrates his spell resistance and the cleric makes his will save, now the cleric is only aware he made save. (The rules say you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast to make a spellcraft check)
3) My target is a cleric with Spell Resistance; the Charm Person spell DOSE NOT penetrate his spell resistance and I'd say the cleric is unaware, but I'm open to interpenetration as it is gray for me.
I'd like to know the official pathfinder rules... Errata anyone?
Scott.
I see your point, Scott. It IS pretty gray. I guess the question is: Does a character know a mind-affecting spell was unsuccessfully cast on him? Would there be a "tingle of magic?"
I think if spells like Detect Thoughts, cast with due caution, had a chance to tip off your target that something was up, I'd be quite reluctant to use them.
The target may not have a clue what kind of spell it was, or even that that "tingle" was from a spell, but he'd certainly want to know what caused it, if he's smarter than a toaster.
Spells like that are way cool, and it's fun to play and great for info gathering. Making it possible that the BBEG wizard will "just know" someone nearby is casting spells on him will make bard boy scared to try it.
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OK, So it's not just me there are no rules when it comes to determining if you just made a saving throw. I'll just play it the way I have been doing it.
1) If you failed a save then you don't know a spell, like Detect Thoughts, was directed on you.
2) On the other hand if you succeed in making the saving throw then you do know you just made a save, but not the source or the spell. Furthermore, you can't spellcraft the spell, because the rules state that you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast to make a spellcraft check.
3) Spell Resistance has no affect on knowing if you just resisted a spell as there are no rules that state you would.
Scott.
FYI. Read above to see the circumstances these spells are cast in as it applies to Detect Thoughts and Charm Person.
Actually, this is in the rules (carried over from 3.5):
Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.
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Actually, this is in the rules (carried over from 3.5):
Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.
Thanks!
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Actually, this is in the rules (carried over from 3.5):
Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.
Wow, I even read that section looking for the answer. In one eyeball and out the other I guess?
Wow, I even read that section looking for the answer. In one eyeball and out the other I guess?
Yeah, drives me nuts when I do that. I happened to have this question years back with 3.5 and dug around until I found the answer. Since PRPG carried it forward it made my work easy in order to help out!