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So, as I continue to reacquaint myself to RGPs (specifically for Pathfinder) after 20 years, I have one overwhelming observation. It can be really stressful making a character. I was used to picking a class and rolling someone up. But now... It's a very involved process. There are decisions to be made that affect the rest of the character's life profoundly. And, figuring out the best ways to stack bonuses... I'm definitely no powergamer. But I still find it scary. Reading the forums doesn't always help. Half of the time, I can barely understand what people are talking about. Reading build discussions makes me wish I had paid more attention in stats class.
Now, understand, that I don't mean to suggest that this is a bad thing. Just different. But, I am going to play PF this weekend for the first time in a Society game. I'm looking upon this as a great intro to the game. A way to learn the mechanics, and enjoy. I'm really looking forward to it. But, as I sit and try to make a character, I feel partially paralyzed. I mean, I had a similar feeling when I tried to play some LFR at a local game store. When I went there I had people giving me a really hard time about my proposed character. How I had assigned my ability scores wrong. Picked the wrong skills. Etc. Now some people were simply teaching me, and that's what I desperately need and look forward to. But a few others were... How to say..
Anyway, just an old gamer, learning to be a new gamer... But figured I'd put my thoughts out there.
Excited to be learning PFRPG though. I'm literally carrying the book with me everywhere I go and reading it during breaks at work and everything... As you can see, I got addicted fast and am subscribed to almost everything.
Well, I look forward to reading your thoughts...
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How cruel people can be. If you have any questions regarding your character creation, let me know. First thing's first.
1) I find it helpful to look over the feats and skills before coming up with a character concept. This way you'll be able to build the character a little better that way.
Usually what happens is I'll read something in a skill or feat, and go "That's really cool! I like that." And then I'll start getting some character ideas. This also helps you understand what types of feats and skills other characters you encounter might have, and how you can prepare to combat those if you need to.
"Woah, you can dodge? I bet I can find a way to keep that from happening."
2) Familiarize yourself with the races and classes. Once you understand the mechanics of feats and skills, you can move on to the more personal options. This is where you really start to get a feel for your character concept. What weaknesses does he have? Strengths? A wizard has a low fortitude save, so he's probably less physically resistant to diseases and poisons. Elves have -2 Constitution, which makes them even more frail, generally speaking. So an elven wizard would likely be rather physically frail (or roleplayed that way), while mentally strong.
3) Now, come up with a character concept, based on what you understand about the races and classes, and your grasping of the mechanics of skills, and feats.
4) Ability Scores: If you're a good roleplayer, you will be tempted to put a low score in one of your abilities to represent a personal weakness. Resist this temptation. It is generally possible with the point-buy system to have all positive (or neutral) ability scores before racial modifiers (and generally better ability scores after, as well.)
5) If you are a spellcaster you will likely want your highest ability score in your spellcasting ability. If you are a rogue, you will likely want your highest ability score in Dexterity or Strength. If you are a fighter, you will likely want your highest ability score to be the one that your fighting style is based on. Generally, this will be Strength or Dexterity. A barbarian will likely put his highest ability score in Strength or Constitution, etcetera. It is easy to determine which ability score is most used by a class by examining the class description.
For example, a first level human Barbarian with 18 Con, 14 Str, could take Toughness(adding +3 to his hitpoints for a total of 12+4+3=19 hp at first level) and Power Attack. Strength would add to his damaging ability naturally.
6) Take feats that augment your character concept. Take at least 1 skill that augments your character concept and at least 1 skill that augments your character's class abilities (or highest ability score).
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That was not meant to be demeaning or patronizing or anything like that, so I would like to apologize if I came across that way. Sometimes I try to be too helpful and it comes out like that.
Not demeaning or patronizing in any way... Actually, great advice, and I really appreciate it. That's exactly what I'm looking for. In fact, I brought my stuff to work today, and plan on working on it a little during breaks and tonight - in prep for playing tomorrow. So, I will definitely be back here with more questions throughout the day and evening.
Thanks again for the help, and I'll be asking more.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'd add a qualifier to #4. I don't consider a single score of 8 to be devestating, and will mold stats to fit concept. For example, with the new rules, a human sorcerer with the abyssal bloodline can be a decent frontline fighter at 1st level.
Feats: Toughness, Dodge(B)
Spells: 0 level Acid splash, read magic, detect magic, dancing lights.
1st level: Mage armour, sleep.
He can attack at range with acid splash, and close into melee with either claws (from the bloodline) or a spear. With 10 HP (6 +1 for Con +3 for toughness) and and AC of 17 (+4 mage armor, +2 dex, +1 dodge) he can actually stand a couple rounds in melee. Human skill point means he can take perception to negate wisdom penalty and Wisdom's a good save for a sorcerer. And who expects a melee sorcerer at 1st level?
In short, play what you want to play, if your character dies, live and learn and build another one. :-)
Welcome back and enjoy the game!
Interesting. It is hard for me to understand how too many options can be a bad thing.
I come from a completely different angle. I always come up with concept first and then try to figure out how to express that in game mechanics. So while classes give direction to some players, I find them restricting.
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I agree that making characters for someone who i unfailiar with thesystem can be stressful. One thing that can help get rid of somofthestress is to grab a copy of PHB II which has a few sample builds for each class. It does get easier though. The first time I made a character for 3.5 it took me almost four hours. No I can roll up a character in under twenty minutes nd often do so as a way of relaxing.
I mean, I had a similar feeling when I tried to play some LFR at a local game store. When I went there I had people giving me a really hard time about my proposed character. How I had assigned my ability scores wrong. Picked the wrong skills. Etc. Now some people were simply teaching me, and that's what I desperately need and look forward to. But a few others were... How to say..
Wow, talk about impolite. Why would other folks get their jollies from publicly criticizing your character?
My two cents: Don't worry about it too much. Picking feats and skills that look interesting is not a crime!
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Bibliomane74 -
Welcome, first off.
Secondly, don't sweat it.
Thirdly, just friendly warning, don't let it unnerve you: if you haven't played in 15-20 years, you're going to find a number of things more complicated than you remember. As the game evolved, it has become more complicated. One more time, don't sweat it.
My encouragement to you is: you're not going to screw up your character so bad that it ruins the game. People may tell you your character is underpowered, or that you picked an option (skill, feat, etc.) that was a poor choice (suboptimal, they'll call it). Don't worry about it; play, soak in the rules and changes, and have fun most importantly.
I'm GM'ing a group right now that has a player brand new to RPGs. She's been picking it up quickly and, after 4 levels, is asking good questions and making good choices. As long as you enjoy playing, you can't really go wrong.
Good luck; safe travels!
-Skeld
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Interesting. It is hard for me to understand how too many options can be a bad thing.
I don't mean to say that a lot of options are a bad thing at all. Actually a great thing. And I'm learning that the game has done a great job of quantifying some of the things that were nebulous before. I think I was just noticing that it can be a little overwhelming to a noob. Especially when there are some who take "maximizing builds" very seriously.
But thanks for all of the great advice. I'm going to be spending some time throughout the day and evening working on this, so I'll definitely be asking questions.
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First off, welcome to the game.
Second, the best way to figure out this system is to try out some stuff. Have some characters die, fail enthusiastically, learn from it. The worst thing you can do is stick with something that just isn't working (especially in 3.5, and I'm assuming, PFRPG)
A lot of the time a concept is great on paper, and then not great in practise, or with the current DM.
Good luck
A lot of the time a concept is great on paper, and then not great in practise, or with the current DM.
+1
If you are making a character in a new system or with a new GM, you really should discuss character concepts with your GM first to make sure they…
- Are viable within the game mechanics
- Appropriate to the type of game the GM is going to run
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I think I was just noticing that it can be a little overwhelming to a noob. Especially when there are some who take "maximizing builds" very seriously.....
I've actually had other players who were optimizers get angry at me in real life because I didn't optimize a "build" and was playing an average character with good roleplay flaws who was only average in combat. The suggestions as to how to make my PC 'usable' were never ending.
It's good to know the rules and make a good PC but don't ever let the Optimum Build overshadow your fun or roleplaying a cool concept.|
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I think I was just noticing that it can be a little overwhelming to a noob. Especially when there are some who take "maximizing builds" very seriously.....
I've actually had other players who were optimizers get angry at me in real life because I didn't optimize a "build" and was playing an average character with good roleplay flaws who was only average in combat. The suggestions as to how to make my PC 'usable' were never ending.
It's good to know the rules and make a good PC but don't ever let the Optimum Build overshadow your fun or roleplaying a cool concept.
Yeah, I've been there. One of my favorite characters I've ever made was one that I decided from the start I wanted to be "sub-optimal." She's a halfling bard/fighter who's a slave, so I chose to start with only a few basic pieces of equipment at level 1 and give up the rest of my starting gold. But she has surprised us all several times when she's been able to pull through and do something helpful in an unexpected way.
So what I'm trying to say is if you make a character concept that you like, and then choose a class, feats, and skills to match that concept, then you'll never be "wrong." When people try to tell you it's not optimal or you should've done it another way, just smile and say you did it on purpose because that's how you wanted your character to be. Don't let them get to you at all.
And as you play more and gain more experience with the rules, you'll find that you're able to make interesting characters that are "sub-optimal" and yet still be effective in combat.
FWIW, this is the system I use when approaching a new character (or helping someone make a new character).
Figure out what type of character you want to play and relate those functions to a specific class. (Asking questions like: Do you want to blow stuff up with spells? Do you want to be sneaky? Do you want to be just? Would you rather swing a sword or shoot a bow? Etc). This will help limit your choice to a couple of classes.
Next for those couple of classes, pick which race you'd most like to play as for each.
After which I go to either spell selection or equipment depending on class. "If you're going to be a Sorcerer, which spells do you want to sling?" "What type of weapons and armor does your fighter perfer?"
After this I focus on feats. What type of feats work will with your character concepts? (Now narrowed down with Class/Race/Equipment/Spells) Do the spells you use benefit from certain feats? Do you want to be more proficient with the equipment you chose? Are there feats you need to complete your character concept?
Skills I do last as a way of rounding out the character.
Summary:
1. Class (narrow to a few)
2. Race (pick a race for each class)
3. Equipment or Spells (and/or Deity)
4. Feats
5. Skills
Steps 3 & 4 are where I really decide what I'm going to play.
I think I was just noticing that it can be a little overwhelming to a noob. Especially when there are some who take "maximizing builds" very seriously.....
I've actually had other players who were optimizers get angry at me in real life because I didn't optimize a "build" and was playing an average character with good roleplay flaws who was only average in combat. The suggestions as to how to make my PC 'usable' were never ending.
It's good to know the rules and make a good PC but don't ever let the Optimum Build overshadow your fun or roleplaying a cool concept.
To continue with that theme of "suboptimal" characters, I have to say, one of my most favorite characters that I've ever played was a Jedi Consular by the name of Alex Sunfyre in an old WoTC Star Wars campaign.
With my group of friends, we pretty much NEVER use the point-buy system; it's always rollin' dice, because we like to roll dice. To me it's relaxing just to start rolling up sets of six and see what happens. Anyway...per our standard rules, I rolled up three sets and got to choose one of the three. There was one particular set that I'd rolled an 18 and I think a 16 and 15 in, but it also had a drawback: there was a 7. I ended up going with that set and putting the 7 in STR. As it turned out, Alex was one of my most interesting characters, because I really got to get into the role of a Consular, finding unique and interesting ways to resolve conflict situations outside of combat. My GM was giving me extra roleplaying experience nearly every session for some of the solutions that I was coming up with.
So..yeah, sometimes, it's nice to try and optimize a character. But sometimes it's also nice just to see where the dice, your own perceptions of your character, and your imagination can take you. We're here to answer any questions you may have!
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Another thing you can do is just start making up 1st level characters. Think up a bunch of them, just to play with the rules for creating 1st level characters. That way it won't be so stressful when you have to create one for a campaign. You could even ask the DM to let you use a favorite one.
This is actually a favorite method of mine, and I've created quite a few characters this way. Most of them are around here on the boards as characters in games, but some aren't.
Celestial Sorceress, guided by dreams and visions, follower of Desna, has found many uses for heavenly fire. Often out of touch with reality due to dreamy qualities, but beautiful and off the wall. Very fun to play and roleplay
Fire Elemental Sorceress, pyromaniac tendencies due to how she got her powers. A fire elemental lord destroyed most of her desert tribe, leaving her alone to survive. Some antisocial tendencies and a generally destructive bent. So far, fun to play and roleplay.
Varisian Diviner, with an interest in Harrowing. With improved initiative and reactionary trait I roleplay her as having at least an inkling of something going on a few seconds before it actually happens, or of knowing what's going on behind her back for the most part.
Paladin of Arazni, a member of the Knighthood of the Phoenix, following Aroden and Arazni and devoted to their resurrection and restoration to divinity. A little suspicious and vindictive, because of the evils his family voluntarily participates in in Westcrown. Like many noble families, his family drifted into diabolism, fulfilling an ancient prophecy.
Elven Wizard, devoted to the pantheon and interested in preserving the elven ways of life in the face of adversity. Elves are always fun to play since they are graceful and more knowledgable than their human counterparts (due to long years and patient outlook on life, generally speaking). This particular wizard is a generalist (everyone was saying the generalist is broken, so I wanted to try it out and see for myself), theming most of his spells on subtlety and enchantment. (so far, magic missile is the flashiest spell he has.
Half elf Cleric of Gorum, a raging mad man in armor. (Chaos, War domains). Nuff said.
Una, a female crossbow specialist fighter. Weapon Focus (heavy crossbow), Rapid Reload (heavy crossbow), Iron Will. Climb, Craft (bows), Intimidate. Not much history for her yet, she's my most recent character.
Try to create one of every class, just so you can get a feel for what it is like to create that class, see if you get a feel for the character and what you like most.
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Another thing you can do is just start making up 1st level characters. Think up a bunch of them, just to play with the rules for creating 1st level characters.
That sounds like a pretty good idea. I'm going to do that. Some time to learn the character creation rules. Some time to peruse the skills, feats, spells, etc. And then I'll have some loose characters on my desk. To think about, and look at. Maybe ruminating about a group will help me start to fill in some details. Let them almost start to make themselves. Hmmmm.... I will definitely be doing some of this.
Thanks
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Another thing you can do is just start making up 1st level characters. Think up a bunch of them, just to play with the rules for creating 1st level characters.That sounds like a pretty good idea. I'm going to do that. Some time to learn the character creation rules. Some time to peruse the skills, feats, spells, etc. And then I'll have some loose characters on my desk. To think about, and look at. Maybe ruminating about a group will help me start to fill in some details. Let them almost start to make themselves. Hmmmm.... I will definitely be doing some of this.
Thanks
Unfortunately they haven't been updated to the final rules yet, but one of my favorite (and easy) ways to do this is with a character generator program. Some people say it takes the fun out of it, but for a new player it makes it WAY less stressful.
At least you could play with the beta versions to get a feel for them while waiting for a version with the final rules to come out.
PCGen is a Java-based generator that'll work on any platform as long as you have Java installed.
sCoreGen is an Excel Spreadsheet that does the same thing using macros - you need Microsoft Office to use it (it won't work with OpenOffice).
Both are fantastic and each has a few nice features that the other doesn't offer, so I end up using both. The other advantage to using one is you can easily take your character up to level 10 or 20 to see where you'll be going with it, and plan out your progression that way. It makes it easy to see if you'll run into any problems down the road.
I think I was just noticing that it can be a little overwhelming to a noob. Especially when there are some who take "maximizing builds" very seriously.....
I've actually had other players who were optimizers get angry at me in real life because I didn't optimize a "build" and was playing an average character with good roleplay flaws who was only average in combat. The suggestions as to how to make my PC 'usable' were never ending.
It's good to know the rules and make a good PC but don't ever let the Optimum Build overshadow your fun or roleplaying a cool concept.
Seconded. You have people that build characters, and then people that build optimum arrangements of stats, skills, and feats to be best at whatever they envision that class is designed to do. That's not roleplaying; that's bean-counting.
It takes some time, but eventually you can tell the difference between people that see a flaw in your design based on the concept you're trying to use and people that see what you're doing as wrong because it doesn't match their blueprint for an optimized character.
FWIW, this is the system I use when approaching a new character (or helping someone make a new character).
Figure out what type of character you want to play and relate those functions to a specific class. (Asking questions like: Do you want to blow stuff up with spells? Do you want to be sneaky? Do you want to be just? Would you rather swing a sword or shoot a bow? Etc). This will help limit your choice to a couple of classes.
Next for those couple of classes, pick which race you'd most like to play as for each.
After which I go to either spell selection or equipment depending on class. "If you're going to be a Sorcerer, which spells do you want to sling?" "What type of weapons and armor does your fighter perfer?"
After this I focus on feats. What type of feats work will with your character concepts? (Now narrowed down with Class/Race/Equipment/Spells) Do the spells you use benefit from certain feats? Do you want to be more proficient with the equipment you chose? Are there feats you need to complete your character concept?
Skills I do last as a way of rounding out the character.
Summary:
1. Class (narrow to a few)
2. Race (pick a race for each class)
3. Equipment or Spells (and/or Deity)
4. Feats
5. SkillsSteps 3 & 4 are where I really decide what I'm going to play.
This is probably the greatest starter advice I've ever heard.
Good show.
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This is probably the greatest starter advice I've ever heard.Good show.
Well, using all of the great above advice, I worked on some character thoughts and rolled one up. Even got to play my very first PF adventure yesterday at a Society local event. It was great!!! The game is great. The character building advice helped a lot. Now I'm hooked... Just need to find a way to play more... As much as possible that is. At least I have these forums to pass the time between.