Hi! As a GM, I often think about changing the rules. Here is a question I pondered about yesterday : shouldn't a bayonnet for a two-handed firearm be stronger than a bayonette made for a one-hnaded gun and a crossbow.
I know that the size of the blade is still the same, yet I told myself : there is not a single two-handed polearm that deals under 1d8 dammage. Furthermore, the gunsligner is (based on personal belief) a very lame character and I'd like to offer the opportunity to have a powerfull bayonnette to a character who would like to be a gunslinger.
I want someone else's opinion. So what do you think?
This is Gold. Gunslingers are lame and need more Damage...
*Grabs the popcorn, sits back and waits for the flamewar to start*
Edit: Sorry for not contributing in a productive way, haven't played or GMed a Gunslinger myself, but based on the hundreds of rants about uberpowerful touchattacking Gunslingers, the boards will most probably disagree with you a lot... ^^
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This is Gold. Gunslingers are lame and need more Damage...
*Grabs the popcorn, sits back and waits for the flamewar to start*
Edit: Sorry for not contributing in a productive way, haven't played or GMed a Gunslinger myself, but based on the hundreds of rants about uberpowerful touchattacking Gunslingers, the boards will most probably disagree with you a lot... ^^
You cannot even shoot with a Bayonet attached.
Don't flamebait.
The difference between 1 and 2 handed should be x1 and x1.5 your STR mod added to damage. That is it.
shouldn't a bayonnet for a two-handed firearm be stronger than a bayonette made for a one-hnaded gun and a crossbow.
There's only one Bayonet, and it's a two-handed weapon, regardless of what type of crossbow or firearm you attach it to.
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I think the damage is fine. If you're going to houserule anything, it should be the part about not being able to shoot the weapon while a bayonet is attached. It is true that Plug bayonets existed that would have fit into the end of the barrel, but those were quickly replaced by offset bayonets that sat above or below the barrel and sheathed around it.
If anything, a bayonet would impede loading more than shooting. But I can see why the rules team didn't want you to be able to easily threaten in melee with your very powerful ranged weapon.
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There's a magic item waiting to happen - a bayonet that you can use and still fire the gun. Will never happen though, as it renders entire feat chains moot. (Threaten with a ranged weapon? I guess you'd still provoke when shooting though)
I'd be up for seeing different damage for different bayonnets though. But that's a house rule, not a rules question.
There's a magic item waiting to happen - a bayonet that you can use and still fire the gun. Will never happen though, as it renders entire feat chains moot. (Threaten with a ranged weapon? I guess you'd still provoke when shooting though)
Any ranged weapon effects wouldn't apply. For instance, Weapon Focus (musket) wouldn't affect an attack with a Bayonet.
The only difference between a Bayonet and a Spiked Gauntlet is one step of die size and the number of hands required.
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There's a magic item waiting to happen - a bayonet that you can use and still fire the gun. Will never happen though, as it renders entire feat chains moot. (Threaten with a ranged weapon? I guess you'd still provoke when shooting though)The only difference between a Bayonet and a Spiked Gauntlet is one step of die size and the number of hands required.
Good point. I'm all for ring bayonets then.
@ Grick: And very importantly: the flavor. I can totally understand people who don't want to have their character run around with a big, spiked chunk of metal on their hand, just because it's a good idea rules-wise.
@ Nagaruo: Sorry again for only making a stupid comment, I read your thread right after another one where people where completely threadjacking with one of the neverending my-right-is-more-right-than-yours-you-are-having-badwrongfun-discussions again. Left me in a kind of snarky mood.
On topic: Even if you where to change the rules and implement two different bayonetts, I would definitely count normal xbows with the twohanded guns and only put the hand-xbow in the smaller category with the one-handed pistols.
I would probably not allow bayonetts on onehanded weapons at all though, since you end up with a VERY strange dagger/shortsword with an extremely uncomfortable grip that way. You essentially need the second hand for which there is no space on a onehanded weapon, to give it enough stability to properly stab someone with it. This is only my oppinion though, since I could not find the PRD-entry for the bayonett and can't say anything about the actual rules.
@ Grick: And very importantly: the flavor. I can totally understand people who don't want to have their character run around with a big, spiked chunk of metal on their hand, just because it's a good idea rules-wise.
Yeah I was just saying that there are other ways to threaten adjacent squares, so having a bayonet that still lets you shoot is more about action cost vs die size.
Without an action cost, there should be some kind of drawback. Looking at the difference between a pistol and a dagger pistol, you're losing two die steps, 1x crit mod, and half the range, in exchange for having a dagger you don't have to draw.
This is only my oppinion though, since I could not find the PRD-entry for the bayonett and can't say anything about the actual rules.
Linked upthread, and Bayonet (you'll have to scroll down for the table)
This is Gold. Gunslingers are lame and need more Damage...
*Grabs the popcorn, sits back and waits for the flamewar to start*
Against a DR10, a gun is useless while a greataxe/sword may still be usefull... That's the only reason why I think so. Other wise, for human Vs human it is usefull.
Thanks for everyone's responses, tough. I'll ponder upon it untill my next GM session.
Dot.
Just one word.....gunblades.
It needs to happen.
Dagger Pistol.
Though I have made a Blade Musket similar to the Axe Musket & Warhammer Musket.
@Nagaruo365: What makes you think a gun is anymore useless against DR10 than any other weapon?
I would probably not allow bayonetts on onehanded weapons at all though, since you end up with a VERY strange dagger/shortsword with an extremely uncomfortable grip that way. You essentially need the second hand for which there is no space on a onehanded weapon, to give it enough stability to properly stab someone with it. This is only my oppinion though, since I could not find the PRD-entry for the bayonett and can't say anything about the actual rules.
Have you seen a Muzzleloading Pistol? They are essentially Short Muskets.
Also most modern Pistols and even Old West Revolvers were used with Two-Hands. The whole One-Handed Gunslinging is a Hollywood Invention.Early pistols tend to have very shallow grip angles. A bayonet mounted on one would have about the same angle as a kukri.
If it is based off of a Renaissance-Era Pistol it wouldn't even have that much of an angle.
@Nagaruo365: What makes you think a gun is anymore useless against DR10 than any other weapon?
See it this way : a warior with 16 str hits with his two handed weapon. If he hits and only make 10 dammage (which is uneffective) he adds his str bonus plus any bonus we may have (power attack, weapon focus, etc.) and he may do so up to 4 times a round at 15h level. At the same level, on the other hand, a gunslinger may only fire his two handed firearm 2 times. If he hits as well as the fighter, he gets (10 on his roll) he is also uneffective. He may always make more damage with feat (such as focus shot), but that reduces his number of attacks to one and, it you don't have a player that has a strong INT (which is not always the case for a gunslinger).
I didnt meant to hurt you when I told gunsligners were lame. I would simply never play one. I can't imagine a gunslinger killing an elder dragon, while my wizard is kindda great for that...
I wasn't referring to the angle of the hande so much as to the fact that the complete legth of the barrel lies between your hand and the point at which the whole thing starts being stabby-slicey. If you then use it one handed, it's going to be rather unstable, because it's a pretty long way from the tip of the bayonett to you'r hand and on top of that, there is an angle between blade and hand, be it ever so slight. The way from the tip of a Sword to the hilt is pretty long too and you can stab people with that one handed too, granted, but a sword is weighted and made for this task. As to the kukri-comparison: There is a reason kukris do slashing damage. Ever tried stabbing with one? Doesn't work very well from a physics-stadpoint, because you can't align the blade with your forearm properly and have a pretty crappy transfer of force. If you made the bayonett for the onehanded weapons a slashing weapon, I could imagine it a little better. But piercing with something like this? There'd better be a penalty to hit...
Hi! As a GM, I often think about changing the rules. Here is a question I pondered about yesterday : shouldn't a bayonnet for a two-handed firearm be stronger than a bayonette made for a one-hnaded gun and a crossbow.
I know that the size of the blade is still the same, yet I told myself : there is not a single two-handed polearm that deals under 1d8 dammage. Furthermore, the gunsligner is (based on personal belief) a very lame character and I'd like to offer the opportunity to have a powerfull bayonnette to a character who would like to be a gunslinger.
I want someone else's opinion. So what do you think?
I think you're talking apples and oranges here. Your argument seems to be that a 2-Handed weapon generally does more damage than a 1-Handed weapon, yes?
Here's the thing: The reason a 2-Hander and a Polearm do more damage is due to size, weight, and leverage. They are made specifically for that fighting style in mind.
A weapon affixed to another weapon, such as a bayonette, is made for a last-minute decision in an emergency situation. It gives anything it's attached to a last-ditch option. It's one-size-fits-most, and does, will, and should only do a fixed amount of damage, no matter what it's attached to.
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@Nagaruo365: What makes you think a gun is anymore useless against DR10 than any other weapon?See it this way : a warior with 16 str hits with his two handed weapon. If he hits and only make 10 dammage (which is uneffective) he adds his str bonus plus any bonus we may have (power attack, weapon focus, etc.) and he may do so up to 4 times a round at 15h level. At the same level, on the other hand, a gunslinger may only fire his two handed firearm 2 times. If he hits as well as the fighter, he gets (10 on his roll) he is also uneffective. He may always make more damage with feat (such as focus shot), but that reduces his number of attacks to one and, it you don't have a player that has a strong INT (which is not always the case for a gunslinger).
A musket master archetype reloads two-handed muskets as quickly as a one-handed firearm. This along with d12 damage, dex-to-damage, deadly aim, rapid shot, and shooting at touch AC...and that's before the feat specifically designed to add your attacks together before applying DR.
Gunslingers come with a different set of problems, but DR isn't too big of a deal.
Gunslingers get to add DEX to damage don't they and there are ways to get the full attack with 4 attacks with a gun.
That said a bayonet made for a specific weapon or type of weapon normally is pretty balanced. I have used a Bayoneted Pistol before it is a bit odd to use but no more than a Half-sword thrust and Mordhau.
Well, I'll make sur to check the rules for gunsligners completely again. Thanks for the responses
Hi! As a GM, I often think about changing the rules. Here is a question I pondered about yesterday : shouldn't a bayonnet for a two-handed firearm be stronger than a bayonette made for a one-hnaded gun and a crossbow.
I know that the size of the blade is still the same, yet I told myself : there is not a single two-handed polearm that deals under 1d8 dammage. Furthermore, the gunsligner is (based on personal belief) a very lame character and I'd like to offer the opportunity to have a powerfull bayonnette to a character who would like to be a gunslinger.
I want someone else's opinion. So what do you think?
I think you're talking apples and oranges here. Your argument seems to be that a 2-Handed weapon generally does more damage than a 1-Handed weapon, yes?
Here's the thing: The reason a 2-Hander and a Polearm do more damage is due to size, weight, and leverage. They are made specifically for that fighting style in mind.
A weapon affixed to another weapon, such as a bayonette, is made for a last-minute decision in an emergency situation. It gives anything it's attached to a last-ditch option. It's one-size-fits-most, and does, will, and should only do a fixed amount of damage, no matter what it's attached to.
Exactly, it's simply a matter of size.
Also I don't think in this case they would get the bonus damage from DEX on the attack. The bonus damage concept is that they are so accurate with their guns that they hit vital spots with their bullets. The flavor doesn't match a bayonet attack, it would be just like attaching with a dagger that had a longer handle.
@Big Lemon: The original case was gunslingers couldn't do enough damage with only a Firearm.