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How do the Pounce and the Rake ability interact? The Rake description says, that a creature doesn't get to use rake unless it started its turn grappling while pounce says a creature gets to use all of its attacks, including the rake.
Does this mean that a pouncing creature gets its rake attacks as additional attacks without the need of grappling its opponent or does it simply mean that a creature that grapples a foe while pouncing gets to use its rake?
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There are two times when a rake attack can be used:
-during a grapple
-during a pounce, without needing to grapple first (if the creature can pounce)
The ability to use a rake during a pounce isn't mentioned in the description of "Rake" because some creatures can rake but not pounce (e.g. a behir).
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There are two times when a rake attack can be used:
-during a grapple
-during a pounce, without needing to grapple first (if the creature can pounce)The ability to use a rake during a pounce isn't mentioned in the description of "Rake" because some creatures can rake but not pounce (e.g. a behir).
Thanks. I guess that makes tigers a rather good choice for 8th level druids, especially when rhino hides give their 2d6 damage bonus on each attack that is part of a charge.
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How many attacks has a tiger when charging?
3? (1 bite 2 claws) or 5? (1 bite 2 claws, 2 rake attacks) ???
pounce = full round (3 attacks) + rake is ambiguous IMHO
5 attacks. It doesn't sound too ambiguous to me (full attack on a charge, including two bonus rake attempts).
I find that a bit too powerfull isn't it?
Yes, it's pretty nasty to get charged by a tiger.
I find that a bit too powerfull isn't it?5 attacks. It doesn't sound too ambiguous to me (full attack on a charge, including two bonus rake attempts).How many attacks has a tiger when charging?
3? (1 bite 2 claws) or 5? (1 bite 2 claws, 2 rake attacks) ???
pounce = full round (3 attacks) + rake is ambiguous IMHO
Yeah, I was really surprised to see that Pounce wasn't pushed back to at least Beast Shape III, as it was one of the really game breaking wild shape abilities.
Of course, with how much the stat buffing portions of wild shape/polymorph were nerfed, it's not as much of a problem, but it can still become very abusive in certain situations, and it opens up a lot of avenues for abuse later, since it can quickly make otherwise balanced buffs/attack abilities scale out of all proportion.
Something small to add to the discussion but worthwhile I feel.
Paizo hasn't yet spell out how these abilities will work. They are not in the book and since the bestiary isn't out yet they may have changed it.
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Something small to add to the discussion but worthwhile I feel.
Paizo hasn't yet spell out how these abilities will work. They are not in the book and since the bestiary isn't out yet they may have changed it.
Spelled out like this?
Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
Format: pounce; Location: Special Attacks.
Yeah like that. Only you know, in an actual published book. The bonus is like the beta of the bestiary we already know that some of it isn't completely accurate from one of Jason's earlier comments on the subject.
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Yeah like that. Only you know, in an actual published book. The bonus is like the beta of the bestiary we already know that some of it isn't completely accurate from one of Jason's earlier comments on the subject.
The Preview Bestiary, not the Bonus one. The one that contains material from the actual Pathfinder Bestiary that will be released next month.
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I'm looking at my druid's medium tiger animal companion. He has rake but from what I read in the Bestiary it cannot be done without grapple.
Rake (Ex) A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only
against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature’s description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
However, he doesn't get grapple until 7th level. So how does he rake?
Am I reading something wrong? Should he have grab instead?
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I'm looking at my druid's medium tiger animal companion. He has rake but from what I read in the Bestiary it cannot be done without grapple.
Rake (Ex) A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only
against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature’s description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.However, he doesn't get grapple until 7th level. So how does he rake?
Am I reading something wrong? Should he have grab instead?
So, no answer? Buehler? Buehler?
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However, he doesn't get grapple until 7th level. So how does he rake?
The short answer is: he rakes when he's grappling.
The ability to grapple is inherent to (almost) all creatures. The basic animal companion tiger is no more adept at grappling than, say, a dwarf, but when the tiger *is* grappling, it gets the additional option to rake.
As the tiger advances, it eventually becomes more adept at grappling than a normal tiger, when it gets grab at 7th level. At that point your tiger will get more use out of rake than ever (because it also has pounce now).
I'm looking at my druid's medium tiger animal companion. He has rake but from what I read in the Bestiary it cannot be done without grapple.
Look at the description of the Pounce ability in the Bestiary:
"Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
Format: pounce; Location: Special Attacks."
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Look at the description of the Pounce ability in the Bestiary:"Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
Format: pounce; Location: Special Attacks."
Okay, when the tiger gets pounce, he'll also be able to rake when he does so.
I'll now show off my ignorance; since the tiger doesn't have hands, which attack is his 'grapple'? Is it when he manages to bite? When he lands both claws? Is it a completely separate attack using the grapple rules? When/if it does grapple, does the tiger rake in the same round or on the next action?
If the tiger lacks the grab ability (which lets it make a free grapple if it hits with one of its normal claw or bite attacks) then it needs to make a normal grapple attempt when it wants to grapple, just like any character that wants to use the grapple action in combat.