Looking at the iconic monk, Sajan, he has the feat Greater Disarm, but he doesn't get the requisite +6 BAB until level 8 when he has no free feats. When the preview came out, I figured that Greater Disarm must have been added to the monk bonus feat list, but no such luck. :-(
Is this just a mistake?
I know I'm not helping here but I was wondering how he had Greater Disarm with just a 10 intelligence? The prereq is 13. I also thought that it might be a Monk bonus feat.
I would have to agree that it must be a mistake. Otherwise, not sure what else it could be.
I know I'm not helping here but I was wondering how he had Greater Disarm with just a 10 intelligence? The prereq is 13. I also thought that it might be a Monk bonus feat.
Greater Disarm doesn't require 13 Int. It just requires Improved Disarm and +6 BAB.
I looked at the prereqs, unless I'm misunderstanding(which is highly possible and quite common for me) it says it requires combat expertise(which he also doesn't have), improved disarm, BA +6, Int 13.
Does a monk not need these to get Greater Disarm? That would open some possibilities up for this one monk I'm going to be running. Let me know.
I looked at the prereqs, unless I'm misunderstanding(which is highly possible and quite common for me) it says it requires combat expertise(which he also doesn't have), improved disarm, BA +6, Int 13.
Ah...I was looking at the table labeled "Table: Feats"; it doesn't repeat the prerequisites of feats earlier in the chain, I guess. You're right.
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Yep Greater Disarm certainly requires Int 13, also requires Combat Expertise, which as pointed out, he doesn't have.
and he does not meet two requirements for Greater Disarm, and does not meet one requirement for Improved Disarm. His Int is too low, and he needs Combat Expertise.
shame shame shame on whoever is the one playing Sajan... :)
don't worry I've been there too... darn prereqs!
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Ah...I was looking at the table labeled "Table: Feats"; it doesn't repeat the prerequisites of feats earlier in the chain, I guess. You're right.I looked at the prereqs, unless I'm misunderstanding(which is highly possible and quite common for me) it says it requires combat expertise(which he also doesn't have), improved disarm, BA +6, Int 13.
It's indented under its prerequisites so the assumption would be that they all apply. :) Took me a second to figure out that chart too. But once I did I like it.
and he does not meet two requirements for Greater Disarm, and does not meet one requirement for Improved Disarm. His Int is too low, and he needs Combat Expertise.
Taking Improved Disarm is fine -- he took it as a monk bonus feat, and monk bonus feats allow you to ignore the prerequisites.
Greater Disarm isn't a monk bonus feat, though.
Was this answered elsewhere?
It seems that, given the attention given to Greater Disarm in the description section of the preview, it isn't a typo there.
Is there a missing section about feat prerequisites, where if you meet the prereqs of a prereq (e.g., Improved Disarm in this case), you're ok?
Or is there missing text allowing monks to take the various Greater ... feats as bonus feats, starting at level 6?
Either way, I hope there's an authoritative answer forthcoming.
I'm pretty sure it's just a typo, unfortunately.
I'm pretty sure it's just a typo, unfortunately.
This makes no sense, it's like not having greater TWF in the list of ranger feats. Monks should have Greater ... in the list starting at 10th level.
Can we please get an official answer as to whether monks can take the Greater <combat maneuver name> feats just like Sajan (as a level 7 character feat?), or if this was a mistake? It's more than a typo because the feat is discussed in the text and the added bonus to disarm calculated in the CMB as well.
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Can we please get an official answer as to whether monks can take the Greater <combat maneuver name> feats just like Sajan (as a level 7 character feat?), or if this was a mistake? It's more than a typo because the feat is discussed in the text and the added bonus to disarm calculated in the CMB as well.
by RAW Sajan is legal (almost).
The pre-requisites for Greater Disarm is only Improved Disarm and BAB +6.
The problem isn't the Improved Disarm but his BAB... He would have to be level 8 to take the feat as his BAB at level 7 is only +5! ... Since Sajan doesn't get a feat at level 8 the earliest he should be able to take Greater Disarm is at 9th.
My guess is that the error is an oversight while converting from beta or some other incantation before that which might have let a monk use his Monk level as his effective BAB (as part of the Maneuver Training ability) while taking these feats (at which point he could take Greater Disarm as early as 6th (if given the ability to select a feat).
I'm not sure why people look at the pre-requisites of feats and automatically assume you MUST have the requirements of the pre-requisites as well. I can't find reference to such a rule anywhere in the book. Granted its considered you should have them but there are other examples...
A ranger with two-weapon fighting feat and improved shield bash would not need a dexterity of 15 (prerequisite of two-weapon fighting) to take shield slam or two weapon defense feat.
If Greater Disarm had Combat Expertise as a requirement then Sajan would need to obtain that feat via an intelligence of 13 since he doesnt get it as a bonus feat, however Greater Disarm dosen't. (even though it appears under the Combat Expertise feat tree.)
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If Greater Disarm had Combat Expertise as a requirement then Sajan would need to obtain that feat via an intelligence of 13 since he doesnt get it as a bonus feat, however Greater Disarm dosen't. (even though it appears under the Combat Expertise feat tree.)
"Greater Disarm (Combat)
You can knock weapons far from an enemy's grasp.Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, base attack bonus +6, Int 13."
It doesn't say just "Prerequisites: Improved Disarm, base attack bonus +6.", as you seem to believe.
by RAW Sajan is legal (almost).The pre-requisites for Greater Disarm is only Improved Disarm and BAB +6.
I thought so too, but the full feat description disagrees with what it says in the table.
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damn your right how did i miss that.
Funny thing is though my shield slam example is correct. Shield slam lists improved shield bash, shield proficiency, two-weapon fighting, and BAB +6. no mention of Dex 15 (although TW Defence does list Dex 15).
I guess this does need a bit of errata as i see its the same for all Greater CMB feats. There is some odd inconsistancy regarding the pre-requisite table and the actual feat entries. I hope this gets cleared up pretty soon.
damn your right how did i miss that.
Funny thing is though my shield slam example is correct. Shield slam lists improved shield bash, shield proficiency, two-weapon fighting, and BAB +6. no mention of Dex 15 (although TW Defence does list Dex 15).
I guess this does need a bit of errata as i see its the same for all Greater CMB feats. There is some odd inconsistancy regarding the pre-requisite table and the actual feat entries. I hope this gets cleared up pretty soon.
The standard rule of thumb back in 3.x days was that if a table and a detailed description appeared to contradict one another, the description took precedence. Whether that's still applicable in Pathfinder, I dunno. I haven't read the Errata document, any word in it on this issue?
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The standard rule of thumb back in 3.x days was that if a table and a detailed description appeared to contradict one another, the description took precedence. Whether that's still applicable in Pathfinder, I dunno. I haven't read the Errata document, any word in it on this issue?
Almost all the Pathfinder Errata is purely cosmetic in nature adding a "+" symbol here and changing a skill change overlook there. The only feat that is mentioned in the errata is Combat Casting which IIRC still listed spellcraft in the description in the table.
The rule of thumb would apply but it seems to be more of an issue since some feats list pre-feat requirements while others don't - its just not consistant enough to make a ruling without knowing if you must have all pre-requisites even if you get the previous feat as a bonus.
Creative Director
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My guess is that the error is an oversight while converting from beta or some other incantation before that which might have let a monk use his Monk level as his effective BAB (as part of the Maneuver Training ability) while taking these feats (at which point he could take Greater Disarm as early as 6th (if given the ability to select a feat).
Probably this.
I'm not sure which version of Sajan folks are talking about (the blog post? a pre-gen from Pathfinder? a pre-gen from a module?). I assume the blog post, in which case it's worth remembering that the blog posts go through a SIGNIFICANT amount less editing than a 576 page hardcover goes through, and there's still errors in that hardcover, so it's not surprising that there's errors lurking in blog posts.
Probably this.
I'm not sure which version of Sajan folks are talking about (the blog post? a pre-gen from Pathfinder? a pre-gen from a module?). I assume the blog post, in which case it's worth remembering that the blog posts go through a SIGNIFICANT amount less editing than a 576 page hardcover goes through, and there's still errors in that hardcover, so it's not surprising that there's errors lurking in blog posts.
Blog post about the monk in the final version of PF Note that it's not obvious whether it's the hardcover that needs to be corrected, or the description of Sajan in the blog post. Possibly both.
This issue is a significant headache for monks, because monks have been locked out of the Greater <combat maneuver> feats after being led up the garden path. Yes, you can still get an Int 13 and then get combat expertise on your own, but then what is the point of letting monks get the improved versions without satisfying the requirements? It would be similar to excluding from the list of ranger feats, the feats that are at the end of the feat trees they get without meeting the requirements.
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Creative Director
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This issue is a significant headache for monks, because monks have been locked out of the Greater <combat maneuver> feats after being led up the garden path. Yes, you can still get an Int 13 and then get combat expertise on your own, but then what is the point of letting monks get the improved versions without satisfying the requirements?
The point is to give ALL monks access to some of these iconic monk-friendly feats. If that means that the monk that wants to get all of those feats needs to pony up with an Int of 13, I'm okay with that. He's already got the baseline feats for free, which puts him ahead of most other classes as far as these feats are concerned. Not everything should be handed out to the monk for free though.
The point is to give ALL monks access to some of these iconic monk-friendly feats. If that means that the monk that wants to get all of those feats needs to pony up with an Int of 13, I'm okay with that. He's already got the baseline feats for free, which puts him ahead of most other classes as far as these feats are concerned. Not everything should be handed out to the monk for free though.
Ah, I was not asking for everything for free. It would have replaced a feat taken at 10th level, and it would have been consistent with 3.5 (before the improved CM feats were split in two) and the apparent design intent, as well as the design of other classes that get the full chains of feats as choices without satisfying all requirements. Although, I see it's more complicated than that because if Greater X becomes part of the list of feats, according to the wording then monks could take directly that feat at 10th level, without taking the improved version first. *sigh*.
I'll settle for just clarity in which feats a monk can get, so I can sleep again ;). Thanks!
The point is to give ALL monks access to some of these iconic monk-friendly feats. If that means that the monk that wants to get all of those feats needs to pony up with an Int of 13, I'm okay with that. He's already got the baseline feats for free, which puts him ahead of most other classes as far as these feats are concerned. Not everything should be handed out to the monk for free though.
Yeah, but monks already suck. Forcing them to take a 13 in Int when they need Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, and Constitution far more just reinforces how bad they are.
