Father Tobyn's behaviour


Rise of the Runelords


My players are currently in the catacombs of wrath.
They have captured Tsuto and read his journal.
They have put together most of his and Nualia's story, largely through the bard questioning people.
The bard is a worshipper of Desna and finds Father Tobyn's behaviour to be contrary to the descriptions of her priests, and I tend to agree.
He didn't travel and tried to direct Nualia's life.

Has anyone dealt with this?

Sovereign Court

pjackson wrote:
Has anyone dealt with this?

Nualia dealt with him. ;)

Seriously, though, I agree with what you said. But maybe Father Tobyn was old and had traveled in his youth, but his health didn't allow it anymore? What's more, Father Zantus doesn't seem to be traveling much either.

As for the controlling part... maybe he just loved Nualia too much and was over-protective of her. Maybe he wasn't that bad after all, but she perceived his protection and rules as a prison.

Sovereign Court

pjackson wrote:

My players are currently in the catacombs of wrath.

They have captured Tsuto and read his journal.
They have put together most of his and Nualia's story, largely through the bard questioning people.
The bard is a worshipper of Desna and finds Father Tobyn's behaviour to be contrary to the descriptions of her priests, and I tend to agree.
He didn't travel and tried to direct Nualia's life.

Has anyone dealt with this?

The problem may be that Tobyn pre-dates the final pinning down of Desna.

I decided that Tobyn had travelled in his youth, before he settled down. Travel is not, in any case, the be al and end all of Desnan worship. Perhaps Tobyn is primarily a dream and vision interpreter?

As for directing Nualia's life... It obviously wasn't done with a heavy hand (she was not caught until her pregnancy showed) and he was trying, albeit clumsily, to direct her toward a Desnan life. Perhaps he had a dream or vision of her holy, higher calling?

That a father might have grand plans for his children, that he might be frustrated and irate when she did something that he perceived as limiting her future opportunities - these seem like reasonable things to occur.

Tobin is a man, not a saint, he made mistakes in his rearing of a child; surely this puts him a large cohort of people?

If your bard wants to get self-righteous and give Tobyn a lecture, well... I'd have Tobyn break down in bitter tears of regret and then ask the bard if he'd never made any mistakes in raising his own children?


I don't think the bard (a female elf) will be raising Tobyn to berate him :)
Nor is the player saying that what Tobyn did was wrong, just that it doesn't seem to fit with the description of Desna's clergy.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well, considering that all your information about the man is coming from what could mildly be described as biased sources...

And even if there's not another side, the fact of the matter is that, cleric of Desna he might be, he is also a human being--flawed and perhaps foolish.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Actually... and this got cut for space from the final adventure...

Spoiler:
...Father Tobyn isn't supposed to be a virtuous and shining example of a Desnan priest. He was probably a lot more good at being a Desnan in his youth, when he DID do a fair amount of travel and exploration and freedom stuff... but as he got older, he started to be less devout and honest about his worship.

The fact that he stopped traveling in favor of living in one part of the world, and the fact that he was so controlling of Nualia (an overbearing trait that, in the end, was pretty much the main cause of her rebellion and fall from grace) was meant to portray Tobyn as a not-that-great priest of Desna. He was a nice guy, and the locals loved him, and he was friendly enough to most, but he wasn't a model priest of his faith anymore. His failings, although they might seem slight, were ultimately responsible for a LOT of pain and suffering; not just to Nualia, but through her drive for revenge, to a lot of Sandpoint as well.

There was an element in the original adventure that had Nualia and the goblins desecrating Tobyn's grave, removing his body from his crypt, and using it for vile goings-on back at Thistletop—basically, his remains and their desecration was going to be the final stage that would scour the last bits of aasimar from Nualia, and the PCs would have a chance to stop that and perhaps learn a bit more about how Tobyn's problems with his faith and his failings as a father-figure were responsible for a lot of what's been happening, and also serves to showcase more of the "sin" themes (Tobyn's being sloth and pride, probably) of the campaign.

The fact that your player picked up on these elements even though they were downplayed in print is pretty cool, in other words!


It's hard to follow up the comments of the Editor-in-Chief, but the matter of Father Tobyn came up in the first iteration of RuneLords that I ran... and a little bit in the second time.

Burnt Offerings is very much a tragedy, if you consider that many of the 'bad guys' just got turned around by life, bad luck, or some bad choices.

Spoiler:
Tsuto may have had a very different life, had he been treated differently. Same with Nualia. The Chopper is absolutely responsible for his crimes, but he wasn't necessarily born a whack-job.

Speaking of Father Tobyn directly, it really depends on whether you see a diety "cutting off" a cleric when they deviate from the faith. Because real world clergy stray from their core values all the time, and sometimes they're just too close to the situation to see it for themselves.

And, say for example, Father Tobyn had strayed from Desna's principles- would she just turn away from him, or try her best to put him back on course. Would he be able to hear and understand those messages, or might he misunderstand?

Real life and contemporary fiction are filled with these same sort of questions.

Also.. there are Varisians who settle down to a lifestyle that is similiar to the old Chelixian way of doing things (going so far as to have a VArisian Council in Magnimar).. And there are orthodox or traditional Varisians who keep to the 'old ways'.

That's when happens when two different cultures meet and intermingle.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Actually, for Chopper...

Spoiler:
It's also sort of subtle there, but Chopper's a tragic figure too. He was a semi-crazy guy and a talented artist who's sensitive mind made him an ideal target for influences from outside. Similar to how dreaming Cthulhu influences the minds of artists in Lovecraft's "The Call of Cthulhu," an evil outside force noticed Stoot's artistry and talent and got in there and messed with him. I won't say much more about that here, since this element's actually a pretty big part of the plot of the Sandpoint campaign I'm running here at the office every other Thursday—but suffice to say, Jervas Stoot had little choice in the manner of becoming Chopper.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Father Tobyn certainly didn't deviate far enough from Desna's faith to get cut off. Despite his failings, he WAS still a mostly good guy, and he did an AWFUL lot to encourage the worship of Desna. If deities cut off their clerics for every tiny and slight deviation from faith, there'd be precious few clerics in the world. And PC clerics would certainly be hit the hardest! :-)


Thanks.
That makes a lot more sense now.

It would have worked better if there was a more typical example of a Desnian priest to provide a counter-example. If I were to run it again I would have a bunch of them attending for the day of the festival and leaving immediately afterwards.

Given that Tobyn's successor also seems fairly settled it would seem that there is a sect of Desna's faith developing that is more concerned with temples and and towns. It makes sense for the worship of a chaotic goddess to be continually changing and to have many forms.

If running with the system of priests worshipping single deities then the rule of them being within one alignment step of the deity to receive spells makes sense. Father Tobyn appeared pretty lawful from the information given, and in that sense seemed in danger of losing access to spells.

Personally I prefer more polytheistic systems in my D&D worlds, and also to have most NPC clerics be experts with knowledge (religion) and access to several incantations. So they can provide whatever magic is needed within their temples without being competent adventurers.


With regards to Burnt Offerings being a tragedy the player of the bard seems to be thinking it is more a teen soap opera with lots of characters over-reacting to things.

Spoiler:

Of course she is right, but she doesn't know that there is a reason behind the extreme reactions - the reawakening of the runewell.
My player's haven't even found it yet.
Perhaps that could have contributed to Father Tobyn's anger.
I think I'll try to plant some more clues about people becoming more angry at that time.

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