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Just looked at the art linked on the dragonlance thread.
Damn... Those maps are awesome. Well except for the mauling of the 'Bakers Dozen' in the planes, but that seems to have been mauled in other places too.
Art is Nice..
I have not picked up the players guide yet so I don't know if any of these have been answered
with the changes I noticed with the planes, Isn't Cosmology Setting specfic? Why change it? Is there something in 4e tha forces the change?
How do they explain off the Dragonborn in Eberron not being hunted down by the Dragons?
How do they Explain all races able to get Dragonmarks now? I am assuming there are still Faimly *Race* specific dragonmarks, but abberant marks are open to everyone, correct?
The changes to magic they shold not need to go into much detail, Setting really was not that old and the old way of magic was not intrigal in the setting, they could probably just ignore the changes, in the story.
I am also interested in Eberron 4e, mostly for the fluff content.
I was also wondering why the Dragonborn were not being killed. Do they have some kind of connection to the Blood of Vol? (I believe it was mentioned that the Vol were experimenting with half-dragons in early elven history and that the dragons put an end to that--and the Vol line.)
How are Tieflings and Aasimar explained? In my 3.5 games, I wanted to add them, with Tieflings being a result of dalkyr meddlings and the Aasimar having to do with the Silver Flame. Is there any mention as to how shader-kai fit into Eberron?
I am also interested in the planes and moons of Eberron. This is the only 3.5 suppliment that I feel is missing from the Eberron line.
Finally, is this book worth buying for the fluff alone? Is it that different from 3.5 mythos and how well does the update work with the old material?
Thank you for answering our questions!
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How are Tieflings and Aasimar explained? In my 3.5 games, I wanted to add them, with Tieflings being a result of dalkyr meddlings and the Aasimar having to do with the Silver Flame. Is there any mention as to how shader-kai fit into Eberron?
Not really worried about this, They can easily be from one the planes.
Not really worried about this, They can easily be from one the planes.
Yeah, I keep forgetting about that. Great, simple solution though! Maybe when I think of planes of Eberron, all I think of are the two invasions. I keep forgetting how common manifest zones are. Darn it, this is why I need a "Planes of Eberron" book!
Speaking of extra-planar creatures, any mention about the fey? I'm so fey crazy, I just really want to use them as major villians in any campaign. I don't know much about 4e, but isn't there some sort of playable fey race?
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Basically with regards to the dragonborn, they're servants of the dragons--akin to how Eberron kobolds work. Those that emmigrated formed an ancient mayan flavored civilization in Q'Barra, but after it fell the area became overrun with lizardfolk and other beasts. The last bands of dragonborn from there have discovered the five kingdoms just after the war--from one fallen empire to another. Not suprisingly, many of them have nothing but disdain for the "civilized" nations.
As far as the new planes go, they actually tie a lot better with the cosmology than the old "orbit" model--which was weird and cumbersome. As the Progenitor Dragons have both a true form as well as manifesting as geological phenomena ("underdark", surface world and moons/rings) they also have planar forms. The Chaos of Khyber runs "beneath" Eberron and is a place of primal forces, imprisoned demon lords and awful aberrant things. The Sea of Siberys is a broken place, as befits the fallen nature of its patron dragon--vast swaths of silver oceans dotted with the ruins of heavenly realms, and is a place of the higher ethical conflicts: maruts, angels, bladelings (and I'd posit things like lillends or lumi too). The planar forms of Eberron are Dolurrh and Thelanis, representing the cycle of life and death. All of the rest of the planes are pretty much just regions of the primary planes (Fernia and Risia as part of the Chaos of Khyber for example, or Shevorath as part of the Sea of Siberys)
All of which is a lot more pertinant to the game, in my opinion. The original cosmology felt a little tacked on--whereas this ties in pretty elegantly.
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Basically with regards to the dragonborn, they're servants of the dragons--akin to how Eberron kobolds work. Those that emmigrated formed an ancient mayan flavored civilization in Q'Barra, but after it fell the area became overrun with lizardfolk and other beasts. The last bands of dragonborn from there have discovered the five kingdoms just after the war--from one fallen empire to another. Not suprisingly, many of them have nothing but disdain for the "civilized" nations.
As far as the new planes go, they actually tie a lot better with the cosmology than the old "orbit" model--which was weird and cumbersome. As the Progenitor Dragons have both a true form as well as manifesting as geological phenomena ("underdark", surface world and moons/rings) they also have planar forms. The Chaos of Khyber runs "beneath" Eberron and is a place of primal forces, imprisoned demon lords and awful aberrant things. The Sea of Siberys is a broken place, as befits the fallen nature of its patron dragon--vast swaths of silver oceans dotted with the ruins of heavenly realms, and is a place of the higher ethical conflicts: maruts, angels, bladelings (and I'd posit things like lillends or lumi too). The planar forms of Eberron are Dolurrh and Thelanis, representing the cycle of life and death. All of the rest of the planes are pretty much just regions of the primary planes (Fernia and Risia as part of the Chaos of Khyber for example, or Shevorath as part of the Sea of Siberys)
All of which is a lot more pertinant to the game, in my opinion. The original cosmology felt a little tacked on--whereas this ties in pretty elegantly.
So wait... they took out the whole concept of the Orbit idea? with manfestations when a plane gets near and other odd things when a plane gets far away?
So wait... they took out the whole concept of the Orbit idea? with manfestations when a plane gets near and other odd things when a plane gets far away?
I can't promise for sure that they completely did...most of the cosmology stuff is probably going to be in the next book if it ever gets treated in any depth at all. So far all we have to go on is the idea that there's a Sea of Siberys and a Chaos of Khyber and that they are basically the Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos.
The rest is really just me trying to hook the pieces together in a way that makes sense, so who knows really.
That said, a lot of the mechanics that cause there to be the kind of "seasonal" planar effects that were the only real benefit of the molecular cosmology have cleaner mechanics in 4e anyway. I really hope they just chuck a lot of it. Not the most sensitive attitude probably, but really I just like the new model a lot better.
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I prefer the old cosmology, but the point is that it really doesn't matter all that much as the old cosmology is perfectly adaptable to 4e anyway. I imagine that will be clearer in the Campaign Sourcebook, which I am eagerly awaiting (Amazon have sent it, but I don't have it yet).
Interestingly, the Manual of the Planes suggested (in the context of the default setting) that if you travel far enough through the Astral Sea away from the material plane you actually will find (maybe) other universes and material planes. As such, they seem to be standardising the cosmology a little across the settings. I'm not sure if they are trying to set up a Spelljammer thing (probably not, actually) but it is suggestive nevertheless.
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The Chages I don't Like *Dragonborn, Eladrin, Cosmology* Seem easy to undue since none of them are rules related, and are just changes to conform with the D&D norm *That is still pissing me off*, So probably will still pick the books up and just take out the stuff I don't like an revert back to the stuff I like in the 3.5 setting.
Actually, I really like how the flavour is evolving and how everything is being explained. I'm not really sure about the Dragonborn explanation, though. I prefer the Blood of Vol having something to do with their existance.Regardless, I totally appreciate the answer!
I'm a bit confused about how the planes work now. Manifest zones were, in my opinion, one of the neatest things about Eberron. If they are gone, I'll be sad. Can you enter other planes through the underdark (khyber) somehow?
I really like the explanation for the non-restricted dragonmarks. In the beginning, there were many more abherant dragonmarks and it seems that it was only through the influence of the early Houses that some of the marks did not become promenant. I'm not saying that it is my favorite change in game mechanics, but I'm willing to evolve. Can warforged get marks now? What about other races from outside the Eberron Campaign Setting norm? Does House Tarkaan (13th House, Abherrant marks) gain any sort of prominance in the official mythos with the dragonmarks shifting races? I understand that this is a new, rare phenomonon described in the ECS 4e, but I was wondering if Tarkaan was mentioned at all. (It's in "Dragonmarked" in 3.5, and I have seen no reference to it elsewhere.) I could totally see the advent of the new dragonmarks as a campaign in itself, as the prophecies are revealed.
Speaking of which, is the Prophecy still really vague, or does it have more of a set [this is part of the Prophecy, insert it in your game] feel? I'm thinking along the lines of Forgotten Realm's History of the Realms, which has been fleshed out and which year to play in is your choice.
Thanks for answering, everyone!
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Actually, I really like how the flavour is evolving and how everything is being explained. I'm not really sure about the Dragonborn explanation, though. I prefer the Blood of Vol having something to do with their existance. Regardless, I totally appreciate the answer!
The official answer is pretty much what I said. My personal answer is: dragons aren't stupid nazis in my Eberron. They don't hunt down every drake, kobold, linnorm, dragon turtle, dragonet, dragonne and dracotaur in existance because they are the only ones to have the spark of dragonisity. There are draconic creatures and there pretty much always have been. People mating with dragons is gross, sure. Undead ucky Khyber dracoliches are awful. People stealing dragon eggs to perform rituals upon them to create dragonspawn is anathema. But seriously...nothing with draconic blood? Nothing with the dragon type in the whole game? I thought one of the cardinal rules of Eberron's development back in 3rd edition was "If it exists in D&D it exists in Eberron" Wasn't it?
That's my personal answer. The dragonborn were a mighty empire that ruled Q'Barra and beyond in the days before the goblinoid nations. Their empire fell into darkness and many fled to serve the dragon lords in Aronessen as their favored servants. They weren't killed on sight because dragons aren't stupid hatemongers and that would be dumb.
I'm a bit confused about how the planes work now. Manifest zones were, in my opinion, one of the neatest things about Eberron. If they are gone, I'll be sad. Can you enter other planes through the underdark (khyber) somehow?
Basically the realm of Khyber is really close to the Chaos of Khyber. Worryingly so. Portals between the two appear frequently and vast swaths of Khyber are constantly manifesting parts of the Chaos. Manifest zones in Eberron work pretty much the same way they work in all of 4e, since they've been folded into core canon. Sometimes planes come really close to the world and flavor it. Sometimes they breech out onto the world. Sometimes big swaths of planes fuse themselves into the world. Or else natural rifts and portals form at natrual spots of intersection (a glacial rift that leads to Risia, or an old sarcophagus with a portal at its center that leads to Doluurh). It happens. but now instead of being a big calandar issue you have to decide on ahead of time, you have full control over it as DM. What planes are manifest, and how manifest they are is totally up to you. Heck, you can even keep the molecule idea as a device people have constructed to keep track of planar convergences.
I really like the explanation for the non-restricted dragonmarks. In the beginning, there were many more abherant dragonmarks and it seems that it was only through the influence of the early Houses that some of the marks did not become promenant. I'm not saying that it is my favorite change in game mechanics, but I'm willing to evolve. Can warforged get marks now? What about other races from outside the Eberron Campaign Setting norm?
They certainly let you, but they let you know how weird it is. There's no sense that this normally goes on in the setting, but they don't come right out and say no. Certainly though they give you a poke and let you know you're sort of messing stuff up if you do--but its your story.
Does House Tarkaan (13th House, Abherrant marks) gain any sort of prominance in the official mythos with the dragonmarks shifting races? I understand that this is a new, rare phenomonon described in the ECS 4e, but I was wondering if Tarkaan was mentioned at all. (It's in "Dragonmarked" in 3.5, and I have seen no reference to it elsewhere.) I could totally see the advent of the new dragonmarks as a campaign in itself, as the prophecies are revealed.
The amount of overarching plot so far is pretty thin. House Tarkaan is pretty much just an army of aberrants who don't want to get purged though, right? I mean they're never really concidered a "House" are they? I got the impression they were more like a gang of organized crime members in Sharn.
Speaking of which, is the Prophecy still really vague, or does it have more of a set [this is part of the Prophecy, insert it in your game] feel? I'm thinking along the lines of Forgotten Realm's History of the Realms, which has been fleshed out and which year to play in is your choice.
It's more mysterious than ever. It's basically a plot device that the DM can use to get dragons involved in the game. The best info on it I've found is an article by Keith Baker from his big series of Eberron essays on wizards.com.
Thanks for answering, everyone!
No problem. I'm actually running the game so explaining everything to someone else is helping me nail everything down too. Glad it helps.
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Actually, I really like how the flavour is evolving and how everything is being explained. I'm not really sure about the Dragonborn explanation, though. I prefer the Blood of Vol having something to do with their existance. Regardless, I totally appreciate the answer!
The official answer is pretty much what I said. My personal answer is: dragons aren't stupid nazis in my Eberron. They don't hunt down every drake, kobold, linnorm, dragon turtle, dragonet, dragonne and dracotaur in existance because they are the only ones to have the spark of dragonisity. There are draconic creatures and there pretty much always have been. People mating with dragons is gross, sure. Undead ucky Khyber dracoliches are awful. People stealing dragon eggs to perform rituals upon them to create dragonspawn is anathema. But seriously...nothing with draconic blood? Nothing with the dragon type in the whole game? I thought one of the cardinal rules of Eberron's development back in 3rd edition was "If it exists in D&D it exists in Eberron" Wasn't it?
That's my personal answer. The dragonborn were a mighty empire that ruled Q'Barra and beyond in the days before the goblinoid nations. Their empire fell into darkness and many fled to serve the dragon lords in Aronessen as their favored servants. They weren't killed on sight because dragons aren't stupid hatemongers and that would be dumb.
That's an interesting approach. Personally, I think you might be humanising the dragons a bit for my tastes - one of the cool things about the Eberron dragons is that not only are they absurdly powerful but they have an inscrutable motivations too. If they want to exterminate half-dragons, it may have nothing to do with notions of racial purity and everything to do with the Prophecy, which no one much understands anyway (outside Argonessen). After all, has anyone actually got a dragon's opinion on the subject (and they may vary anyway)? So kobolds, dragonborn and so one might have nothing to do with that aspect of the prophecy, and hence don't cop any draconic fury.
Personally, I'm not keen on the dragonborn (and the eladrin) for continuity reasons as I'm pretty comfortable with the 3.5 version of Eberron. That said, the changes they have made are very marginal so their absence (or presence, if my players dictate otherwise) won't be a huge problem for the setting.
My personal answer is: dragons aren't stupid nazis in my Eberron
Good rebuttal. I see that the other draconic subtypes exist in the world without interference from Argonessen. It's not that I don't like the Dragonborn, I think they'd be an excellent addition for my player who always wants to play a half-dragon. It's that I didn't see how they could exist wthout being hunted. But you do make a very good point, as does Aubery on the Prophecy. The reason Vol's half-dragon kin were exterminated is probably because they were seen as abominations and outside of the Prophecy. Dragonborn would likely be a more natural evolution and accepted.
On the topic of dragons and unknown motivations, does anyone know why the dragons brought war to Aerenal? I've looked through several books in 3.5 and have not found an answer or an account of the war.
Does House Tarkaan (13th House, Abherrant marks) gain any sort of prominance in the official mythos with the dragonmarks shifting races? I understand that this is a new, rare phenomonon described in the ECS 4e, but I was wondering if Tarkaan was mentioned at all. (It's in "Dragonmarked" in 3.5, and I have seen no reference to it elsewhere.) I could totally see the advent of the new dragonmarks as a campaign in itself, as the prophecies are revealed.Haven't seen the Campaign Guide yet myself, but from what I understand, Tarkaan gets a lot of focus. I hadn't even heard of it before now, but apparently it is coming to the forefront in some fashion.
I haven't done a full read through but in my skiming over the book House Tarkaan is mentioned as a source of threats for an aventuring group not as a background for PCs. Tarkaan is still a abherrant House and would be hunted down and killed by the 12 Houses, law enforcment and dragons.
My personal answer is: dragons aren't stupid nazis in my EberronGood rebuttal. I see that the other draconic subtypes exist in the world without interference from Argonessen. It's not that I don't like the Dragonborn, I think they'd be an excellent addition for my player who always wants to play a half-dragon. It's that I didn't see how they could exist wthout being hunted. But you do make a very good point, as does Aubery on the Prophecy. The reason Vol's half-dragon kin were exterminated is probably because they were seen as abominations and outside of the Prophecy. Dragonborn would likely be a more natural evolution and accepted.
On the topic of dragons and unknown motivations, does anyone know why the dragons brought war to Aerenal? I've looked through several books in 3.5 and have not found an answer or an account of the war.
The Aerenal were supporting and hiding Vol and her family.
On the topic of dragons and unknown motivations, does anyone know why the dragons brought war to Aerenal? I've looked through several books in 3.5 and have not found an answer or an account of the war.
I'm with her. My interpretation of what I've heard (and maybe this is only a 4e thing) is that the dragons weren't horrified nearly as much by the presence of a half dragon, as they were by the immergence of the House of Death. Partly fueled by the prophecy, partly fueled by their own indignation of having their bloodlines combined with a great and malignant threat, partly out of fear at what the House of Death might become--they launched an assault to end the entire bloodline.
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That's not my understanding. The Aerenal elves and the dragons cooperated to bring down House Vol - it was a pause in their ongoing hostilities. Bear in mind the Aerenal hate necromancy (by and large) - the deathless are animated by positive energy, not negative (in 3.5). The normal hostilities seem to be primarily territorial.
Looks like the dragons attacked the Aerenal to destroy Undying Court but joined the Aerenal to destroy the House Vol ending the war. The link above has more details.
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Hoo-hoo! Today is awesome! I just got my copy of the Campaign Guide. All that supposition of mine about the relationship between the new planes and the old molecule?
Canon baby!
Okay so they put Mabar and Irian in the Sea of Siberys instead of the Chaos of Khyber--and they put Lamannia there too, where I probably would have made it the Feywild and Thelanis the name of the Faerie Court within it.
But other than that it's like spot on what I'd hoped.
And the rest of the book is AMAZING. This really might get me playing more Eberron. The more I read thorough it, the more I dig it. If every Campaign Guide is this good--WotC has me hooked but good!
Oh and the art...can I tell you! Wow.
P.S. My personal hope is that the Lord of Blade IS the godforged god. It really looks like it.
The Becoming God is the anti-Lord of Blades so it could be that the Lord of Blades could rise to be its nemesis.