MDT, I hear what you're saying (cool Belgariad reference BTW), but let me counter with an example from a setting I'm conversant in.
What would be the FC for humans from:
Cormyr
The Dales
Sembia
Waterdeep
The Silver Marches
Chessenta
Moonsea
Dragon Coast
etc, etc, etc,
I think for most settings it's seen as impractical, at best, to hammer out FCs for every region. I won't say it can't be done, but is it worth the effort?
YMMV
LOL,
And I only recognize half of those, and have no details on any of them. Mainly because I don't use pregenerated worlds. But is it difficult? Uhm, no, not really. Lemme see, The Dales. If I remember, that's where Drizzt lives right? I've read one or two of those books. Icewind Dales? Here's something off the top of my head (note, not supposed to be a perfect match for the Dales)Location: The Dales
Preferred Class: Ranger
Description :
The Dales exist in the high mountains of the frigid north. They are a loose confederation of small kingdoms who alternate between fighting amongst themselves and turning on any invading army in a massed defensive.
The kingdoms are rather insular, the only thing they agree on is that outsiders are a bigger threat than any internal disagreements. All battles between kingdoms are called that, disagreements. All kingdoms stop their disagreements to turn on outsider invaders, even on the battlefield itself, an invading force will suddenly find the two army's it tried to ambush turning to attack as one unit.
The kingdoms, due to their mountainous terrain and the vast cold wilderness that each controls, maintain a very loose army structure. Most members of the army are rangers whose favored enemies start with human, then orc, and usually vary beyond that. The kingdoms are renowned for their rangers ability to disappear into the wilderness while being observed, and then sink an arrow into an enemies back as they search frantically for the army that was just...
LOL!
That's not quite on target, but it's a pretty good try.
I plan on sticking with the 3.5 FCs for FR and just using the beta rules for what FC does unless I like the final better.
There are literally dozens of human regions in FR. Some are fairly homogeneous, but many are very eclectic. I can see where it would add flavor to have increasingly specific FCs for different races and regions, but for my FR games I find it unworkably complex.
Every setting and every game are different there are huge differences in lots of game using the same setting.
If the final rules do away with FC altogether that's fine for some folks. I'm good with the middle ground I mentioned, and some folks especially those who create their own worlds, can be even more exacting. Like I said, it can be done, but it's more work than I'm willing to do.
|
Uhm,
No, if you look back, nations historically tended to have 'classes' their warriors fell into.For example,
Roman Legionaires
English Archers
Japanese SamuraiNow, a Roman Legion was mostly made up of guys with shields, short swords, and spears. They weren't the only weapons they used (despite what 300 would have you believe).
Roman Legionarires weren't the only soldiers on the battlefield in most Roman fights. In fact, indigenous soldiers were more likely to fight on behalf of Rome as "Client Kingdoms" or "Allies". English Archers were a special forces unit, it was more common to find a typical Billhookman on the battlefield. The Japanese Samurai were a minority on the battlefield as well.
If you're going for a historic feel for soldiers, then don't look any farther than a 1st level warrior armed with a shortspear and a wooden shield. It was ubiquitous from Spain to Japan. If you're looking for a cool form of shock trooper, then a subrace really wouldn't be made up of mostly one class unless they were specifically bred for it. If that's the case, they're most likely a thrall of somesort (maybe under the command of Aboleths or other such aberrations). Possibly an older breeding program could be the source, so that todays creatures might be "prodigous" in a field.
Also, 300 had nothing to do with the Romans...
Icewind Dale isn't part of the Dalelands, actually. But worthy effort. ^^
The L5R setting actually does set a favored class for every region (well, clan). The bonus feats available to a samurai also vary depending on what clan he's from, if I recal.
Further, The 3.0 Forgotten Realms book lists several common classes for each region (and yes, I mean Each. And. EverY. Region). Along with the regional feats available in that region, and 'bonus starting equipment' for characters belonging to one of the region's preferred classes.
That's sort of what setting books do.
Also, 300 had nothing to do with the Romans...
Very true, very true. Romans and Spartans are two different things.
And while Romans were commonly outfitted in a simple chainmail tunic, Spartans dashed brazenly into battle clad only in flowing red capes and leather thongs.
|
Actually, he called you a h-o (which I assume is pronounced like "ho" but drawn out. I.e, "Hooooooo").Wha! Why you... Who you callin a ho?("Let's intentionally enforce stereotypes that are already mechanically optimal")There were both favored classes that were decidedly non-optimal (example: gnomes -- really? what, exactly makes bards a good choice for gnomes, mechanically speaking?) and non-favored classes that were decidedly optimal (example: dwarven barbarians were better than half-orc ones, even though dwarves had fighter for a favored class and h-o's had barbarian) in 3.5.
My reading would be that it's pronounced like "Hey-oooooo!"
Uhm,
No, if you look back, nations historically tended to have 'classes' their warriors fell into.For example,
Roman Legionaires
English Archers
Japanese SamuraiNow, a Roman Legion was mostly made up of guys with shields, short swords, and spears. They weren't the only weapons they used (despite what 300 would have you believe).
Roman Legionarires weren't the only soldiers on the battlefield in most Roman fights. In fact, indigenous soldiers were more likely to fight on behalf of Rome as "Client Kingdoms" or "Allies". English Archers were a special forces unit, it was more common to find a typical Billhookman on the battlefield. The Japanese Samurai were a minority on the battlefield as well.
If you're going for a historic feel for soldiers, then don't look any farther than a 1st level warrior armed with a shortspear and a wooden shield. It was ubiquitous from Spain to Japan. If you're looking for a cool form of shock trooper, then a subrace really wouldn't be made up of mostly one class unless they were specifically bred for it. If that's the case, they're most likely a thrall of somesort (maybe under the command of Aboleths or other such aberrations). Possibly an older breeding program could be the source, so that todays creatures might be "prodigous" in a field.
Also, 300 had nothing to do with the Romans...
A) That was sort of my point. There is plenty of historical reference for 'classes' that were the ideal of the country. I also said there was plenty of other people on the battlefield (grunts with shields and spears?). The idea was though that the classes were the ideal of those countries.
B) As to 300, I know. But... it's so fun to put out Romans/300 and see how many people notice. :)
|
|
So favored classes are still there in some form?
Alright, that'll be the first thing I'm house-ruling. Stupid arbitrary penalties for not playing your character according to stereotypes.
If it works as is being speculated, there are no stereotypes enforced. If I want to play a halfling barbarian, then barbarian can be my favored class. The benefit is +1 hit point or +1 skill point per barbarian level I take. If I then want to multiclass and take rogue levels, I don't get a penalty - I just don't get the favored class bonus for the rogue levels I take.
Basically, it seems that favored class is still in, but that it's now tailored to your individual character rather than race.
I seriously doubt characters can just pick their favored class at first level. That option will very likely be reserved for half-elves, humans and possibly half-orcs.
The way I see it, rewarding characters for playing according to type (i.e. rewarding characters for picking their race's favoured class) in effect punishes anyone not playing to type. I think a favored class mechanic is unneeded as long as you make classes traditionally associated with the race optimal for the race. The races as written in the Beta seemed to do this: dwarves made good Fighters and Clerics due to their racials, gnomes made good Bards and Sorcerers, halflings made good Rogues and Bards, half-orcs made good Barbarians and Druids, etc. The only one that was a bit lackluster was the elf, because even though their racials supported one of their favored classes (Wizard) the other favored class was simply a suboptimal choice for their race. (The elves' +2 to Intelligence and spellcasting-reliant abilities are wasted on a Ranger, Rangers already have the weapon proficiencies gained from being an elf and a +2 to Dex is simply not worth the -2 to Con. Rangers are better off being human and also quite oddly dwarves and half-orcs.)
This is, IMO, one of the things that 4e does strictly better than any iteration of 3e: the races don't gravitate towards certain classes because the rules arbitrarily penalize you for not playing other classes/reward you for playing them, the races are simply built so that they are already mechanically appropriate for the classes which are iconic for them. The reason people play dwarf Fighters and Clerics in 4e isn't because they get penalized if they don't, but because the racial abilities of dwarves make those character types optimal. The same goes for elf Rangers, halfling Rogues, gnome Illusionists and so on.
That is how favoured classes should work, IMO: don't give characters arbitrary penalties or rewards for playing according to type (or sticking to one class as the case may be), but build the races so that they support the iconic character classes for that race. The Beta did this right for most of the races, so if they didn't make too many changes to the races as of the Beta I can just ditch the rules for favored classes and let this issue be. ;)
I think the concept of a "subrace" started with Tolkien's three elvenhosts; the light elves, the sea elves and the cave elves (to put it simply).
Not cave elves. Dark elves, i.e. those elves who never saw the Light of the Trees.
Also, 300 had nothing to do with the Romans...
Very true, very true. Romans and Spartans are two different things.
And while Romans were commonly outfitted in a simple chainmail tunic, Spartans dashed brazenly into battle clad only in flowing red capes and leather thongs.
I really hope you are joking with that. As they used head to toe armor. Not counting the shield
Not cave elves. Dark elves, i.e. those elves who never saw the Light of the Trees.
Thank you.
I really hope you are joking with that. As they used head to toe armor. Not counting the shield
Also, 300 had nothing to do with the Romans...
Very true, very true. Romans and Spartans are two different things.
And while Romans were commonly outfitted in a simple chainmail tunic, Spartans dashed brazenly into battle clad only in flowing red capes and leather thongs.
Does a skirt count as armor?
I really hope you are joking with that. As they used head to toe armor. Not counting the shield
Also, 300 had nothing to do with the Romans...
Very true, very true. Romans and Spartans are two different things.
And while Romans were commonly outfitted in a simple chainmail tunic, Spartans dashed brazenly into battle clad only in flowing red capes and leather thongs.
I think it's safe to assume Hydro is joking.
Icewind Dale isn't part of the Dalelands, actually. But worthy effort. ^^
The L5R setting actually does set a favored class for every region (well, clan). The bonus feats available to a samurai also vary depending on what clan he's from, if I recal.
Further, The 3.0 Forgotten Realms book lists several common classes for each region (and yes, I mean Each. And. EverY. Region). Along with the regional feats available in that region, and 'bonus starting equipment' for characters belonging to one of the region's preferred classes.
That's sort of what setting books do.
Does that mean you think human regional FCs are a good idea for FR? L5R has how many clans?
Does that mean you think human regional FCs are a good idea for FR? L5R has how many clans?Icewind Dale isn't part of the Dalelands, actually. But worthy effort. ^^
The L5R setting actually does set a favored class for every region (well, clan). The bonus feats available to a samurai also vary depending on what clan he's from, if I recal.
Further, The 3.0 Forgotten Realms book lists several common classes for each region (and yes, I mean Each. And. EverY. Region). Along with the regional feats available in that region, and 'bonus starting equipment' for characters belonging to one of the region's preferred classes.
That's sort of what setting books do.
Personally, yes.
Again, it adds flavor, fluff, and is not hard to do. It just takes a few hours of the GM's time to sit down and type up a paragraph or two of fluff for each region.
I wouldn't penalize PC's though. If, as we all suspect (haven't seen the rules so it's just a strong suspicion so far) that you can choose your FC at 1st level, the way I'd handle it is the PC's get one fixed FC at 1st level based on origin, and one they pick, giving them two (or the half-elf 3).
I think the concept of a "subrace" started with Tolkien's three elvenhosts; the light elves, the sea elves and the cave elves (to put it simply).Not cave elves. Dark elves, i.e. those elves who never saw the Light of the Trees.
Actually, when I said "light elves" I ment Vanyar (I was referring to the Vanyar, the Noldor and the Teleri). Which was of course a mistake becase "light/dark elf" is a completely different distinction that runs across those lines.
Does that mean you think human regional FCs are a good idea for FR? L5R has how many clans?Icewind Dale isn't part of the Dalelands, actually. But worthy effort. ^^
The L5R setting actually does set a favored class for every region (well, clan). The bonus feats available to a samurai also vary depending on what clan he's from, if I recal.
Further, The 3.0 Forgotten Realms book lists several common classes for each region (and yes, I mean Each. And. EverY. Region). Along with the regional feats available in that region, and 'bonus starting equipment' for characters belonging to one of the region's preferred classes.
That's sort of what setting books do.
Well, I personally don't think favored classes are ever a good idea. :)I was just curious, really, as to if and how FC-by-culture would apply to humans (since that poster was appling them to everyone else).
In FR, your favored class was determined by race (as per 3.0). So yes, wood elves and high elves had different favored classes, but they were also different biologically and statistically; it wasn't just a cultural boundry. And a region's 'preferred classes' was different from a race's favored class (for instance, I'm pretty sure that a halfling rogue from the Dalelands wouldn't get any bonus equipment because rogues aren't favored in the Dales, but a halfling ranger would).
And yes, I was joking about the Spartans.
|
|
A) That was sort of my point. There is plenty of historical reference for 'classes' that were the ideal of the country. I also said there was plenty of other people on the battlefield (grunts with shields and spears?). The idea was though that the classes were the ideal of those countries.
But that was not my point. My point is that all of these guys are fighters or warriors. There is nothing special about their class.
Edit: Now what would impress me though... show me an entire nation made up of druids! That favored class always gets to me when I see it!