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Okay, since the Bard preview thread has disappeared I'm going to start a new one about a couple of questions and issues that I have with the Versatile Performance ability. There are namely two issues that I'd like to address:
First of all, how does Versatile Performance interact with spells that give bonuses to skill-checks? Some spells, Jump and Glibness being the first to come to mind, grant bonuses on specific skills. Assuming that you have a Bard with the Versatile Performance ability related to Perform (Comedy), whichs supposedly lets him use that skill in place of Bluff and Intimidate checks, and he cast Glibness on himself, would he gain the +20 bonus from the spell on Perform (Comedy) checks he makes in place of Bluff checks to tell a lie or would he actually have to use the Bluff skill with the aforementioned bonus?
I can actually see both arguments as having some merit: On one hand you could say that since you're effectively just using your Perform (Comedy) bonus on a Bluff check you would gain the said bonus on it, but on the other hand one could argue that since you're effectively just using the Perform (Comedy) skill to invoke the effects of the Bluff skill you wouldn't gain the bonus.
My second question is about how Versatile Performance interacts with feats that affect these skills or rely on them. First of all, the Dazzling Display feat allows you to make an Intimidate check against all foes within 30 feet who can see you. Could a Bard with Versatile Performance in Perform (Comedy) make a Perform (Comedy) check in place of an Intimidate check in this case?
As a second example, there's the Intimidating Prowess feat, which allows you to add your Strength bonus in addition to your Charisma bonus on Intimidate checks. Assuming the same Bard yet again, would he gain his Strength bonus on his Perform (Comedy) checks used in place of Intimidate checks in this case?
While I am looking for an official answer I'd also like to invite other people's opinions and input on this, just to see what the general consensus on these things might be.
Also, in light of the Versatile Performance ability I'm now convinced of the fact that the Joker is a Bard with Versatile Performance in Perform (Comedy). ;)
When I get the book I'll let you know.
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This is, indeed, a tricky issue. I'll give you my direct interpretations of your questions first then attempt to codify them with an explanation.
Assuming that you have a Bard with the Versatile Performance ability related to Perform (Comedy), whichs supposedly lets him use that skill in place of Bluff and Intimidate checks, and he cast Glibness on himself, would he gain the +20 bonus from the spell on Perform (Comedy) checks he makes in place of Bluff checks to tell a lie or would he actually have to use the Bluff skill with the aforementioned bonus?
Yes. You are still making a Bluff check, not a Perform: Comedy check; you're just rolling your Perform: Comedy skill instead of your Bluff skill.
Could a Bard with Versatile Performance in Perform (Comedy) make a Perform (Comedy) check in place of an Intimidate check in this case?
Yes. Versatile Performance states that you can use Perform (Comedy) when making Intimidate checks, and using Dazzling Display involves an Intimidate check, not a Perform: Comedy check.
Assuming the same Bard yet again, would he gain his Strength bonus on his Perform (Comedy) checks used in place of Intimidate checks in this case?
Yes. It's still an Intimidate check, not a Perform: Comedy check.
Alright, now to explain my view of this:
Assuming the text in the Bard blog entry mirrors the actual functionality of the class ability, Versatile Performance "allows the Bard to substitute his bonus in Perform: <arbitrary> for his bonuses in <two other arbitrary skills>". What this means is that you're still making a Bluff check, Intimidate check, Fly check, or whatever. Thus, any bonuses to those checks still apply. Similarly, as long as you're making a relevant check, you can substitute your Perform skill.
However, if you had bonuses or penalties to a check based on your skill in Intimidate (for example, old-style Synergy Bonuses), it wouldn't matter what your skill in Perform: Comedy was, because you're not making an Intimidate check. Along those same lines, if a spell, ability, etc gives you a bonus to your "Intimidate skill", then it would not apply when you substituted your Perform skill for Intimidate in an Intimidate check.
From what I can see, you're getting confused on the definition of a skill check. Regardless of what skill bonus you're actually adding to your d20 roll on a skill check, that check remains whatever type is being called for. A check to try to lie your way past a guard is still a Bluff check even if you're adding your Perform: Comedy bonus.
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Assuming the text in the Bard blog entry mirrors the actual functionality of the class ability, Versatile Performance "allows the Bard to substitute his bonus in Perform: <arbitrary> for his bonuses in <two other arbitrary skills>". What this means is that you're still making a Bluff check, Intimidate check, Fly check, or whatever. Thus, any bonuses to those checks still apply. Similarly, as long as you're making a relevant check, you can substitute your Perform skill.
This was exactly what I was looking for! I seemed to have read that article lazily, since I'd completely missed the bit about substituting bonuses!
So, with the case being that you're still making a Bluff/Intimidate check, only with your bonus on Perform (Comedy), all of my afore-mentioned combinations should be possible. :)
I would say no to the first question. Glibness only adds to true bluff checks, not other rolls in place of a Bluff check (and doesn't glibness now add a smaller bonus? I know my group has abused that in the past.)
Yes, it does grant a smaller bonus now. It used to grant a +30 bonus but by the Beta it now grants a +20 bonus instead, just as I stated in my post. We'll have to see what the final ruling is once the actual rules arrive. :)
This is one of my questions as well. Without the final rules in hand we are forced to guess. Perform (dance) can be substituted for acrobatics and fly according to the preview. I see no problems with the Jump spell giving a bonus to a bard using perform (dance) to jump a moat. The difference between a bard using perform (dance) and a barbarian using the straight acrobatics skill will be one of grace and style.
The feat Dodge in the beta states "If you have 10 or more ranks
in Acrobatics, the dodge bonus increases to +2." Again I would be inclined to allow the perform (dance) to allow this increased benefit to the bard. Assuming such a statement still exists in the final rules I would be surprised if this kind of synergy is prohibited.
The hints given in the bard preview gives hope that a melee orientated bard could be an answer to those of us wishing for a PF bladesinger.
Doug
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This is one of my questions as well. Without the final rules in hand we are forced to guess. Perform (dance) can be substituted for acrobatics and fly according to the preview. I see no problems with the Jump spell giving a bonus to a bard using perform (dance) to jump a moat. The difference between a bard using perform (dance) and a barbarian using the straight acrobatics skill will be one of grace and style.
The feat Dodge in the beta states "If you have 10 or more ranks
in Acrobatics, the dodge bonus increases to +2." Again I would be inclined to allow the perform (dance) to allow this increased benefit to the bard. Assuming such a statement still exists in the final rules I would be surprised if this kind of synergy is prohibited.The hints given in the bard preview gives hope that a melee orientated bard could be an answer to those of us wishing for a PF bladesinger.
Doug
I mostly agree with you, except that after rereading the preview (Thanks to Zurai's comment.) I realized that you're not actually substituting one skill for another: you're using the bonus for skill A in place of your bonus for skill B when making a check with skill B.
So, if this is any indication of how the rules in the final version will work the Bard will be able to gain the benefits of the Jump spell when using his Perform (Dance) bonus in place of his Acrobatics bonus, but he won't be able to qualify for the improved benefit of the Dodge feat, as Versatile Performance doesn't give you any virtual ranks but simply lets you substitute one bonus for another.
I mostly agree with you, except that after rereading the preview (Thanks to Zurai's comment.) I realized that you're not actually substituting one skill for another: you're using the bonus for skill A in place of your bonus for skill B when making a check with skill B.So, if this is any indication of how the rules in the final version will work the Bard will be able to gain the benefits of the Jump spell when using his Perform (Dance) bonus in place of his Acrobatics bonus, but he won't be able to qualify for the improved benefit of the Dodge feat, as Versatile Performance doesn't give you any virtual ranks but simply lets you substitute one bonus for another.
I just reread the preview and I have to agree with you. Shame if it works the way we are agreeing it seems to work from the preview. Still versatile performer is a great addition to the bard. It gives me something to do with the perform skill other than bardic music and the role playing aspect. Getting invited for private performances by the politically powerful does have its uses. I wish Jason would comment on this.
Doug
I agree with most of the comments made so far, but I don't see Intimidating Prowess adding too a perform (comedy) check to Intimidate.
Intimidating Prowess seems to add to the Intimidate bonus, which is specifically replaced by the perform (comedy) bonus.
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I agree with most of the comments made so far, but I don't see Intimidating Prowess adding too a perform (comedy) check to Intimidate.
Intimidating Prowess seems to add to the Intimidate bonus, which is specifically replaced by the perform (comedy) bonus.
I stand corrected, you're right about that one. :)
Ratpick is most correct. You may start gaming with these rules, as you fully understand them already. No need for the book for you to use these rules. Happy gaming. You may carry on now.
Awww, thanks. I feel special now. :D
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I agree with most of the comments made so far, but I don't see Intimidating Prowess adding too a perform (comedy) check to Intimidate.
Intimidating Prowess seems to add to the Intimidate bonus, which is specifically replaced by the perform (comedy) bonus.
Nope. Intimidating Prowess states, and I quote, "Add your Strength modifier to Intimidate skill checks in addition to your Charisma modifier". It specifically adds to the checks, not to the skill itself.