So okay, I'm a huge fan of Paizo and a big time supporter of Pathfinder. I think someday it would be fun to make a game that ties into the Pathfinder RPGCL--but really I'd like it to be something that 1) is a good, valuable book that people enjoy buying, and 2) something that actually benefits you guys by my producing it.
Now usually in my experience that involves adding game value to the product--new races, new classes, new gear, new monsters, or whatever. I guess my fear is that on one side of the issue is making a game with so much new stuff that it risks running afoul of the "no original systems" clause. On the other hand, using the exact same races, classes, etc. but without developing any IP material (also WAY taboo) it seems like the best way to make the product worthwhile would be to come up with another fantasy setting using the same rules set.
But then wouldn't the new product, intended to help you guys and Pathfinder, actually end up competing with it? And that's totally the last thing I want.
I guess what's your vision for the Compatibility License? How do you see it helping you guys? What kind of stuff would you like to see third parties developing using your rules? How much flexibility is there to add stuff (like new classes) that could be used to expand the utility of the rules system--or to expand the rules to other genres (sci-fi, horror, pulp, etc.) without it crossing the line and becoming not Compatible?
ehem...*bump*
So okay, I'm a huge fan of Paizo and a big time supporter of Pathfinder. I think someday it would be fun to make a game that ties into the Pathfinder RPGCL--but really I'd like it to be something that 1) is a good, valuable book that people enjoy buying, and 2) something that actually benefits you guys by my producing it.
Now usually in my experience that involves adding game value to the product--new races, new classes, new gear, new monsters, or whatever. I guess my fear is that on one side of the issue is making a game with so much new stuff that it risks running afoul of the "no original systems" clause. On the other hand, using the exact same races, classes, etc. but without developing any IP material (also WAY taboo) it seems like the best way to make the product worthwhile would be to come up with another fantasy setting using the same rules set.
But then wouldn't the new product, intended to help you guys and Pathfinder, actually end up competing with it? And that's totally the last thing I want.
I guess what's your vision for the Compatibility License? How do you see it helping you guys? What kind of stuff would you like to see third parties developing using your rules? How much flexibility is there to add stuff (like new classes) that could be used to expand the utility of the rules system--or to expand the rules to other genres (sci-fi, horror, pulp, etc.) without it crossing the line and becoming not Compatible?
Not sure about expanding into new generes but new classes and races shouldn't be a problem. I think 'no original system' means (and I maight be wrong on this so please double check) that you cannot have a system that works within your setting that isn't OGL ie open to other publishers. For example you cannot have an Elmentalist with a new magic system that works fine that is closed content.
The real problem, as I see it isn't going to be coming up with new concepts for say Knight class, but coming out with one that hasn't been done before and that readers would prefer to their older version.
TTFN DRE
Yeah, that's actually what I'm wondering about. So much of the really terrible product made for D&D under the OGL was so terrible because folks were trying to produce generic stuff to work for everyone (like a Knight class, or the complete book of geometric-shaped puzzle rooms) and they were just terrible.
The big idea would be to make game books that people really want--that support Pathfinder rather than competing with it, but which don't step on any IP toes. Hopefully whatever gets made can make Pathfinder bigger and stronger. The Tome of Horrors was a good example of this. They make a really good monster book, which not only gives folks a book they want to buy--but then the guys at Paizo can go into it and draw monsters from it (like the Terratomorph) that they can use in adventures.
Wow! A bump that isn't posted 3 hours after the original post. Doesn't happen that often. I'll chime in for that alone! ;-)
I cannot speak for Paizo, but I think their idea of compatibility license is that it means people will get enough use out of the PF RPG core rulebook. The OGL still allows you completely new games, but the compatibility license not, since they don't have anything to do with the PF RPG rules any more.
So I think if you make additional classes and races, it will be okay. Feats and so on, too.
I think it gets tricky if you replace too much from the original game. Say, you're doing your own magic system, change how skill ranks work, completely replace the races and classes, and don't use levels any more. That would be a problem.
If you have a great campaign world you want to publish as a PFRPG campaign setting, go for that. Something like that might compete with The Pathfinder Chronicles campaign world, but not with the Pathfinder Roleplaying game.
Ideally, you won't do a generic fantasy setting that goes up against Golarion. Instead, do something a bit off the beaten path. Some Far East setting (based on India, China, Japan, or anything else there) or even something using Australian myth.
Another thing would be to change the setting's era. I'd really like something reminiscent of the Dark Tower series, for example. Knightly Gunslingers going up against evil wizards and mutants trying to destroy all the worlds in a weird mix of high tech, magic and post-apocalypse.
Or "Modern Magic", something akin to Urban Arcana, the Dresden Files, Mage and the like.
Finally, you could change the tone. Golarion has a kitchen sink feel to it, but in its heart, it's Vanilla Fantasy. Go for something else. Cthonian Horror, High Romance, Swashbuckling...
But having said that, if you have a great idea for some extra mechanic that would work well with PF RPG (and maybe even in PC), go for that, too. For example, I like the Secrets of Pact Magic book as it introduces spirits and forging pacts with them into D&D.
Go for something else. A system of Crystal Magic (where all power is derived from the right combinations of crystals), True Names (something the Tome of Magic mentioned but didn't execute to my satisfaction).
Y'know I think that actually helps quite a bit. Truth be told, I figure the most liberal estimate would be that anything I made would either be a) a side-jaunt for already loyal Pathfinder players anyway or b) a nice hook to grab a few people into the game. I mean thinking rationally about it for a second, I can't imagine anything I'd produce would do anything like compete with Pathfinder, all it could really do is help.
What I really dreaded was having to do some yargarific book like "101 new dungeon interior decorations" or the "book of nifty ways to use a fighting chain". Those are the kind of lame-o products that choked the d20 line to death.
What I'd really like to do is maybe something along the lines of the old Polyhedron mini-settings. Cheap, small, but evokative like crazy--something where you spend $5 on it or so, but have enough value in it to run a campaign you want to do over and over. Something akin to what Sinister Adventures was attempting with Cold Black.
Another thing I'd love to do is a totally OGL, Pathfinder compatible Monster Anthology. There really aren't enough of those that aren't tied to a specific world. I mean it's like Tome of Horrors...and what? I don't think there are any others that aren't just templates or whatever. It'd be nice to kick out a book of maybe 30 brand new monsters that are heavy on flavor, that fill in some of the niches that just never get filled by the SRD critters. Something that maybe the guys at Paizo might dip into when they need a new monster for an issue of Pathfinder but don't have anything on hand that fits.
What I'd really like to do is maybe something along the lines of the old Polyhedron mini-settings. Cheap, small, but evokative like crazy--something where you spend $5 on it or so, but have enough value in it to run a campaign you want to do over and over. Something akin to what Sinister Adventures was attempting with Cold Black.
I'm not too familiar with those, but the concept can work well, I'd think - either as baseline for a mostly-homebrew setting (and the book would give you a running start) or the basis for one-shots.
It can also work well if you don't need much detail.
I think this will work best if you make use of what you already have. Don't invent a dozen new classes and races, but show how the existing classes and races can work with minimal adjustment (going as far as using most of the racial traits from existing races for something that looks different but plays mostly the same)
Another thing I'd love to do is a totally OGL, Pathfinder compatible Monster Anthology.
Can't go wrong with monster books. As long as the stuff in there is interesting and the stats are sound, this should work out fine.
Either that or your own take on revisited monsters.
I'm not too familiar with those, but the concept can work well, I'd think - either as baseline for a mostly-homebrew setting (and the book would give you a running start) or the basis for one-shots.
Other fine examples of the breed are what Dungeon and Dragon magazine did when they released the Dark Sun minigame--or the mini settings you get in D20 Future and D20 Apocalypse (both books are must have).
I think this will work best if you make use of what you already have. Don't invent a dozen new classes and races, but show how the existing classes and races can work with minimal adjustment (going as far as using most of the racial traits from existing races for something that looks different but plays mostly the same).
I've always thought that a book does best when it adds at least a little to the system as a whole, whether that's new classes, races, gear or whatever. A little section giving what paladins, druids, bards, or whatever are like in such-and-such setting is nice too, but ultimately I think it's fun to have some new options for the system, even if it turns out you never use the minigame. Some of the races and classes in the Polyhedron minigames were just classic.
Can't go wrong with monster books. As long as the stuff in there is interesting and the stats are sound, this should work out fine.
Either that or your own take on revisited monsters.
I'd really like these books to be something that can be used by folks who run (or write!) Pathfinder to add more possibilities for setting neutral monsters. A revisited monsters book seems like its value would depend on where these new monsters come from. Maybe if I do one of these mini settings and it takes off like crazy, something like that would be worthwhile--just to keep the Pathfinder goblins feeling distinct from the Zanmechty goblins or whatever.
My main target here is that there really seem to be huge holes in what monsters are available. I mean once you account for CR, and habitat, and the role whatever monster is supposed to fill in the campaign (mid-level, peaceful, spiritual jungle tribes) the number of options, particularly fully OGL options, drops really quick.
What I'm looking at doing is a set of first level monsters--colorful fun monsters that first level characters can run into so that it isn't always goblin-skeleton-giant rat fare. I like the idea that for a race to be interesting, fun and deep it doesn't have to have a CR 15 pricetag. I like the idea that there's baseline stuff out there that folks can run into their very first adventure that is still fun and extremely memorable. I also like the idea of breaking the book up by habitat, so all the subterranian monsters are together, as are all the mountain, underwater, jungle, or desert dwelling monsters. That way if you're looking for a neat encounter while up in the glacier filled north, you aren't stuck flipping through a ton of monsters that would never work.
That's what I'm noodling anyway.
Where I'm weakest is the "statistical soundness" department--I think mostly because so many of the design decisions in core D&D stuff feel really arbitrary to me, I guess I just don't understand (or in some cases am too irritated to try to understand) the gamist underpinnings of why certain monsters run the way they do. The best I can try to do is extrapolate what I can from the monsters that exist to try and get a feel for why certain things are designed the way they are.
In my heart I'm more of a storyteller than a number cruncher. When I read a Monster Manual entry, I usually start with the art, then read the flavor text, then I take a look at the CR to see if using it is just a crazy stupid idea and the sections on social organization and geography. Most of the statblocks just don't seem that relevant to me. Obviously I can't think like that when it comes to making a book myself, but I can imagine it will flavor my design choices.
Chief Technical Officer
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...running afoul of the "no original systems" clause...
I'm not sure which you mean. Perhaps the first paragraph of the Compatibility section?:
"In order to make use of the compatible content, your product must operate under and rely on the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. Standalone game systems are in no event authorized hereunder."
If so, I think you may misunderstand it. Here's what the intent of that is:
Under our license, your product has to say "Compatibility with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game requires the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game from Paizo Publishing, LLC." The paragraph above ensures that you actually have to *mean* that last bit, in two different ways. First, the "must operate under and rely on" part ensures that your product really is an extension of ours, and not a whole new thing that's just taking advantage of our branding, or misleading our audience. Second, the "no standalone game systems" bit ensures that you can't just take all of the rules you want from our Core Rulebook and reprint them in yours, so that nobody needs to buy ours. This license is about creating synergistic products, not creating replacement products.
Now, if you want to create a standalone system using rules from the Pathfinder RPG—even one that's not as a whole compatible with the Pathfinder RPG, well, you can do that using the OGL—you just can't claim it's compatible with the Pathfinder RPG. (And, by definition, it wouldn't be.)
All that ties neatly in to your main question, which is what we envision 3rd parties doing.
When it comes to rule products, we've already said we're only planning a few major releases each year, and we expect that there will be more demand for additional rules than we'll ever do. That's a great place for other parties to start. If you want more specifics, listen to the audience—they'll tell you when they have needs we're not ready to fulfill. Same deal when it comes to accessories.
And when it comes to settings and adventures, we've built a setting that we're not including in that license. We like it a lot, but it's not for everyone; we hope that other folks will come up with other settings and genres built to use the rules.
When it comes to rule products, we've already said we're only planning a few major releases each year, and we expect that there will be more demand for additional rules than we'll ever do. That's a great place for other parties to start. If you want more specifics, listen to the audience—they'll tell you when they have needs we're not ready to fulfill. Same deal when it comes to accessories.
And when it comes to settings and adventures, we've built a setting that we're not including in that license. We like it a lot, but it's not for everyone; we hope that other folks will come up with other settings and genres built to use the rules.
Okay, so say I do the latter (the idea of a "rules product" seems about as exciting as reading a novel about grammar...)
Here I am making a setting book using the Pathfinder rules (which is not to say that Golarion isn't awesome and beloved like crazy--just that it's totally your IP, so...) Here I am writing the product. Does it even have a character creation section? Probably not, right? Can I include a couple of new classes or races...say for like a Sword and Planet themed game? Or would that make the game too much of a standalone, since you could maybe play without the core book?
Which just gets more hairy when you start talking about different genres. Hard to do a sci-fi setting with wizards and rangers, much less elves and dwarves. But if you do a book with Pathfinder rules and include sci-fi alien races and tech classes, it seems like you'd run into problems for sure.
So hence my hesitancy. I'd really like to toss something out there for everyone to enjoy, but it's daunting to try anything that isn't just a dry rules book or else a very similar rehash of Golarion without running afoul of the rules.
Does that make more sense?
As long as you stick to what's in the SRD, you could create a whole new game, campaign setting or anything else you'd want with the information. If it's a sci-fi setting and Wizards don't make sense, you could use the same mechanic (possibly even the same spell list) and rebrand the Wizard as something else. You could remake it into whatever you wanted, you just couldn't claim that it was compatable with Pathfinder RPG. In this case, you would end up reprinting much of the SRD and changing what you wanted or needed.
If it were a different campaign setting but didn't need a ton of changes from the original Pathfinder RPG to work, like say an Oriental Adventures or something, you could do this by not reprinting the SRD, stating things that won't work, are different or are replacing something from the core rulebook (Wu Jen class replaces Wizards, there are no Paladins, additional races/classes/skills/feats/PrC etc). In this case, you'd still need the core rulebook to use it so it could be marked as being compatable with Pathfinder RPG.
Obviously you couldn't do anything that would allow someone to bypass the core rulebook and mark it as compatable at the same time.
Okay...well again I'm not looking to do a book that ISN'T Pathfinder Compatible. That's pretty easy, true, but it's not what I'm trying to do.
Also I'm not trying to rip off Paizo by reprinting all their rules to keep people from buying the core book. I actually really like Paizo, and that's the whole reason I'm here poking around the issue of how to go about making a compatible book.
I've been seeing stuff on the boards leading me to think that the folks at Paizo would really like people to make use of their Compatibility License--at least enough to be advertising it as much as one of their products. So I figured I would check into helping.
I wasn't implying that you were trying to rip off Piazo. I was just giving my take on how it worked. The DND 3.0 Oriental Adventures would be a good book to look at for this kind of thing if you can get your hands on a copy (or PDF). It doesn't reprint anything that's in the core book. It just lists differences like what classes and races aren't allowed; lists new ones; changes the default alignment dynamic (chaos is the new evil); adds one skill, I think; introduces new system for Samurai's to duel with each other; adds new feats and PrCs that are relevent to the campaign setting etc.
I guess the rule of thumb to create a new campaign setting would be to assume that all of the core applies and then change what you absolutely have to and add from there.
If you're just doing a splat book then you'll want to just assume the core and add from there.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Here I am making a setting book using the Pathfinder rules (which is not to say that Golarion isn't awesome and beloved like crazy--just that it's totally your IP, so...) Here I am writing the product. Does it even have a character creation section? Probably not, right? Can I include a couple of new classes or races...say for like a Sword and Planet themed game? Or would that make the game too much of a standalone, since you could maybe play without the core book?
Well, unless you have some major twist on character creation, you probably don't need a character creation section—they'll use the one in our core rulebook. And if you *do* have a twist, then you only need to tell them whatever they need to know to apply the twist.
Let's say, for example, that in your setting, no character ever has a stat that's less than 10. You can assume that your readers are working with the Pathfinder RPG, so you don't need to repeat anything—you just need to add "in my setting, no character ever has a stat that's less than 10."
On the other hand, let's say that instead of STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, and CHA, you only have two stats: Body and Mind. In that case, you will need your own character creation rules... but I'd also say that that's enough of a change that you're no longer truly compatible with the Pathfinder RPG, so you shouldn't try to pretend you are.
Can I include a couple of new classes or races...say for like a Sword and Planet themed game? Or would that make the game too much of a standalone, since you could maybe play without the core book? ... Which just gets more hairy when you start talking about different genres. Hard to do a sci-fi setting with wizards and rangers, much less elves and dwarves. But if you do a book with Pathfinder rules and include sci-fi alien races and tech classes, it seems like you'd run into problems for sure.
New races and classes are great, so long as the rest of the rules still work. Basically, so long as "Grim's book + PFRPG = playable game" you're going to be ok. But if you get to a point where it's more like "Grim's book + chapters 2, 5, and 9 of the PFRPG," you probably don't have a compatible product, so you should just use the OGL to incorporate those parts into your own book, and skip the compatibility license.
Okay, thanks. That is a ton more reasonable and workable than it was sounding from reading the agreement. I think that will work out just fine.
Think I may proceed with the monster book I had in mind, and then maybe branch out to something a little more of its own setting. Hmm...Grimcleaver Pathfinder Compatible roleplaying products. This is getting exciting.