People are going to pirate anyway and people love free stuff. So companies should just give away their products free.
Great Idea!
Hey, Paizo, why don't you give away your PDFs? You know my ideas are golden, look at the 7 Sale.
If you want to have something from it, I suggest you give away PDFs only to, say, people who subscribe to your products. Doesn't have to be a yearly subscription. Make it a subscription you can cancel any time, and where you don't charge ahead of time.
Let's see them implement that idea.
Does anyone know if Wes has his time machine ready?
You keep saying that. But since I used the DMG and your math links to do the inaccuracy of the "hard math" argument and didn't include a SINGLE house rule then it appears that yes, I did cover it and it was real. You are wrong, but don't worry I have no illusions that you will ever admit it in your state of divorced reality.
Sure sure, keep thinking that. What's the color of the sky on the planet you're living on?
For arguments sake let's say this is true for newer 4e products. How does the pulling of the 3e/3.5e pdf's stop any piracy?It doesn't. It just criminalises people as they can either not get the stuff or get an illegal copy from the net...
Except 'EITHER not get it OR steal it' is still a CHOICE.
Wizards of the Coast still do not have orbital mind control lasers as far as I know, they are not a world government (or a secret mega-influential illuminati organisation, unlike Paizo, for example) and they still cannot FORCE people to commit criminal acts.
Aggravate people and toss temptation their way, I would agree with, but criminalise people, no.
Lay off the caps.
You keep saying that. But since I used the DMG and your math links to do the inaccuracy of the "hard math" argument and didn't include a SINGLE house rule then it appears that yes, I did cover it and it was real. You are wrong, but don't worry I have no illusions that you will ever admit it in your state of divorced reality.Sure sure, keep thinking that. What's the color of the sky on the planet you're living on?
I'm no mathematician, so on paper skill challenges may be broken to all Hades, but in my game they work. And no, I didn't house rule them or erratta them or fudge them. I ran them as intended straight out of WotC's published adventures and they worked. My players had fun, they won some and they failed some. Maybe this is because my players didn't go out of their way to break the system.
And you're forgetting one of the biggest thing about skill challenges: they're built so that winning isn't mandatory. If they fail every challenge, they're set back a little and the game goes on. If they win every skill challenge, they get a bonus and the game goes on. Is that a reason not to play 4e?
Ok, so your characters are built to win every skill challenge, they metagame and come up with a system to do it. How's that different than min-maxing a combat character? Somebody's going to say, "Yeah, but there are ways for a DM to stop that." Well, there are ways to stop the percieved problem of skill challenges too. But Fuchs says that if the system can't handle an attempt to break it within the published rules, then the system is broken .
I've seen characters min/maxed for every edition of D&D and a lot of other systems, most for combat and some for social skills or whatever else. Does that mean no edition of D&D or any other game has been playtested? Does it mean any of those systems are completely broken and useless? Or does it mean that if you do the math a system is breakable?
I'm just glad I play D&D with people looking to game, and not some jerks just trying to break the system.
That...hurt my brain.
As far as the "Older Generation" not like 4e, I ran a 4e game for my uncles over the 4th of July. They have never played beyond 1st edition and they LOVED it!! While I personally don't like 4e that much, I had fun with it and thats all that matters.
Lay off the caps.
For arguments sake let's say this is true for newer 4e products. How does the pulling of the 3e/3.5e pdf's stop any piracy?It doesn't. It just criminalises people as they can either not get the stuff or get an illegal copy from the net...
Except 'EITHER not get it OR steal it' is still a CHOICE.
Wizards of the Coast still do not have orbital mind control lasers as far as I know, they are not a world government (or a secret mega-influential illuminati organisation, unlike Paizo, for example) and they still cannot FORCE people to commit criminal acts.
Aggravate people and toss temptation their way, I would agree with, but criminalise people, no.
Acknowledged and apologies for over-emphasising.
Good. I tell you, my eyes were ringing!
Anyway, of course there is a choice. Steal the stuff or don't get it. But that's a really crappy choice, and as such I don't count it is such. There should be better ways - and until recently, there were better ways. There's no real reason why they cannot be, except wizards' ongoing crusade against older editions.
Anyway, of course there is a choice. Steal the stuff or don't get it. But that's a really crappy choice, and as such I don't count it is such. There should be better ways - and until recently, there were better ways. There's no real reason why they cannot be, except wizards' ongoing crusade against older editions.
How do you feel about the "patronage" distribution model that Wolfgang Baur and Monty Cook have used and that seems to be rising in popularity lately?
Anyway, of course there is a choice. Steal the stuff or don't get it. But that's a really crappy choice, and as such I don't count it is such. There should be better ways - and until recently, there were better ways. There's no real reason why they cannot be, except wizards' ongoing crusade against older editions.
Those evil mofos! They stop selling older pdfs, but keep selling the newer ones so people are "forced" to play their new edition. They tear down all of their older support material on their site so that people can't get access to it. Then ban any discussion of older versions on their discussion threads. Do not allow pbp of older editions on their site either. We all can totally agree with you that they are "crusading" against the older editions.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I've Been Gone Camping, WHOO!
Do you really think that pulling 3E material did anything to delay piracy of 4E material?
I should have been more clear. What I was trying to say (and what I've been trying to say my entire time on this thread) was "Pulling the sales of New PDFs has delayed the piracy of the New books.
I thought I made myself clear in my previous post, but apparently there was some room for misinterpretation. I apologize. :D
Having said that, here's what we know.
1) The PDFs that hit the torrent sites, were not pirates, they were leaks. There's a significant difference there.
2) The leak was closed, which led to a reduction in the speed with which those materials hit the pirate sites.
3) We still didn't stop the pirates....
You don't see entire international organizations online like you do in the Warez or Rip scene, trying to get RPGs up to the masses.
What you do see is little Joe Nobody, scanning his book for his own convenience, which gets put into a torrent, which gets distributed by his friend, who got it for free.
I have to politely disagree here. The books you see on the torrent sites aren't leaks (well, except the 4e core three, those were leaked a week early). They are copies purchased in pdf form with the watermarking and identity stamping stripped out so they can be shared via bit torrent. I'd call that a pirated copy, but maybe were using different terminology.
And while there aren't exactly international organizations working on this stuff, I wouldn't call it Joe Nobody either. There are online communities of people who work specifically on rpg book piracy, and legit PDFs were the perfect format for these guys. They could be acquired immediately upon release, were always high quality, had selectable, searchable text, and they came pre-bookmarked for easy navigation. You could have a group of guys pitch for the initial investment, and basically get the book for a fraction of the price no later than your average customer could walk into the store and get his.
Now with scans, you have to worry about A)Quality, B) Time, and C) Is someone else going to get a scan up before whoever I pitched in with does, and if so, what happens to my investment?
Are you really so sure? How many of those 3E (or earlier?) pdfs do you really think they sold? How many more 4E books will they sell by pushing the pirated copies back a week or more? I think simply assuming one is greater than the other without evidence is possibly missing a big piece of the puzzle here. And I'd expect WotC to have a far better grasp of what these numbers really are compared to anyone here ...
That's true, one would honestly expect WotC to have a handle on their own numbers here. Maybe we're doing them a disservice by assuming they made a stupid call without know exactly how well their old catalog PDF sales were doing. Certainly if they weren't making any money with it, it would make sense to pull it along with their new stuff.
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I should have been more clear. What I was trying to say (and what I've been trying to say my entire time on this thread) was "Pulling the sales of New PDFs has delayed the piracy of the New books.
You were clear and I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you in any fashion. I think what was seen as the "sticking point" was how removal of 3e pdf's was related to well frankly anything other than attempting to bury 3e.
Cheers,
S.
I don't think anyone is really trying to defend the decision to pull pre-4th Edition PDFs, beyond saying "We don't have all the details, so it might be premature to leap at WotC's throat over this."
The issue of pulling 4th Edition PDFs is completely separate and (I believe) both legitimate and vindicated by the increased time it's now taking for the book pirating community to circulate new PDFs.
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I don't think anyone is really trying to defend the decision to pull pre-4th Edition PDFs, beyond saying "We don't have all the details, so it might be premature to leap at WotC's throat over this."
If WotC gave two hoos they would provide information to dispel any falsehoods. As it is it "quacks like a duck".
The issue of pulling 4th Edition PDFs is completely separate
Yep.
I don't think anyone is really trying to defend the decision to pull pre-4th Edition PDFs, beyond saying "We don't have all the details, so it might be premature to leap at WotC's throat over this."
The issue of pulling 4th Edition PDFs is completely separate and (I believe) both legitimate and vindicated by the increased time it's now taking for the book pirating community to circulate new PDFs.
Time's not much vindication. The 3e stuff took longer to pirate than the 4e sale PDFs and they became pretty pervasive. Any real vindication would come by showing a reduction in volume.
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Time's not much vindication. The 3e stuff took longer to pirate than the 4e sale PDFs and they became pretty pervasive. Any real vindication would come by showing a reduction in volume.
Volume which in itself is almost impossible to measure.
Most of the counting isn't keeping in mind the things that don't have associated numbers (such as peers and seeds) that can't be tracked.
For instance, WotC has no idea how many times someone put a pdf on a thumbdrive and passed it to 1, 10 or 100 people. WotC can't track instances of circulation channels like Newsgroups. WotC can't track insider/private torrent sites, private FTP services, and lower service P2P networks.
Basing the success of their tactics in 1) combatting existing piracy, and 2) preventing future piracy on the number of torrents out there is optimistic in the extreme.
People who want things for free will find a way. There's already private forums out there that replicate the entire contents of D&D Insider.
"Nature will find a way"
I don't think anyone is really trying to defend the decision to pull pre-4th Edition PDFs, beyond saying "We don't have all the details, so it might be premature to leap at WotC's throat over this."
The issue of pulling 4th Edition PDFs is completely separate and (I believe) both legitimate and vindicated by the increased time it's now taking for the book pirating community to circulate new PDFs.
I am not convinced that they are completely separate. I think WotC got tired of being crapped on (pirated mercilessly) and decided they were going to take all their toys and go home. "See! That is why we can't have nice things."
If WotC gave two hoos they would provide information to dispel any falsehoods.
WotC made plenty of attempts to dispel falsehoods following the 4E release, and it didn't do them any good. Between the internet rumor mill and people who wanted to believe the worst, all it got them was frustrated. It doesn't surprise me to see them keeping their mouths shut rather than potentially making things worse. "Once bitten, twice shy."
There's already private forums out there that replicate the entire contents of D&D Insider.
Hence the new format used in the Psion release article. WotC will learn, like everyone else, that inconveniencing paying customers is not an acceptable way to fight piracy.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I am not convinced that they are completely separate. I think WotC got tired of being crapped on (pirated mercilessly) and decided they were going to take all their toys and go home. "See! That is why we can't have nice things."I don't think anyone is really trying to defend the decision to pull pre-4th Edition PDFs, beyond saying "We don't have all the details, so it might be premature to leap at WotC's throat over this."
The issue of pulling 4th Edition PDFs is completely separate and (I believe) both legitimate and vindicated by the increased time it's now taking for the book pirating community to circulate new PDFs.
I don't think they're seperate either, but again I don't blame malice. I blame in this case leviathan.
Remember what little behind the scenes wrangling we've been privy to with the GSL? There was an over protective faction arguing no GSL, then people like Scott, Lidda, and (from the outside) Clark trying to get a more OGL document. When the GSL 1.0 came out it reflected the first faction more than the second. The revised GSL was a step forward for the Scott/Lidda/Clark faction, but look how long it took to be made?
I think they're connected in that the order came down to "Pull the PDFs off the market, NOW." and it was an overreaction, and now there are forces trying to pull back from the overreaction, but they take time.
In the meantime, I bought Cathay, Jewel of the east for ideas for asian flavour, OA not being available.
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Hey, Paizo, why don't you give away your PDFs? You know my ideas are golden, look at the 7 Sale.
If you want to have something from it, I suggest you give away PDFs only to, say, people who subscribe to your products. Doesn't have to be a yearly subscription. Make it a subscription you can cancel any time, and where you don't charge ahead of time.
MY GOD!
IT WORKED!
Personally I don't believe this is a thing of "the young vs the old", but rather one of differing play-styles. I just reintroduced a group of friends of mine to D&D 3.5 after they found 4.0 all to close to WoW.
They, along with myself, are veterans to the king of all mmorpgs, and so when looking for a game to play, tried to find one where we could do more than play balanced combat. We wanted a simulation game, were we could play as a bunch of regular villagers one day, and demi-gods the next. Ultimately we found the 3.5 edition a much better simulator than 4.0.
I think 4.0 ultimately attracts the wargaming crowd more than the roleplayers. Now if I had been WotC I would have divided D&D into two subgroups to maximize the people who would like the game. If they ever come out with a 4.5 I think they will do just that.
Removed several posts about piracy. Please do not discuss piracy on our boards, whether that be where to acquire pirated PDFs or the fact that certain PDFs may be available as pirated PDFs. You place our boards at risk when you post such information.
Sorry, Joshua. Didn't want to stir up trouble.