I was DMing this weekend and ran into a situation. The parties Warlock had a power that allows him to teleport an opponent. The party happen to have been standing on the city walls being attacked by a spell cast mounted on a Manticore. He wanted to use the teleport to seperate the rider from the mount. My call was that the creatures could not be seperated and the spell caster and manticore were teleported together.
I don't care about this exact situation since it would have been fun to drop the spell caster 50 feet or so. What I am concerned about is at higher levels when they are in aerial combat. One attack could drop a rider to their death, no saving throw, although admittedly you need to succeed in the attack. It would require anyone with intellgence to use Dragonrider armor. And I don't know if all classes even have access to armor that can accept Dragonrider enchantment.
It also concerned me because it seems an easy way for me, the DM, to kill half the group. A couple of teleporters could just teleport the characters off of their mounts. Likewise, with the ability to teleport a rider off the mount, the same logic should allow you to teleport an item away from a person holding it.
The only thing close I could find in the DMG is how to handle forced movement on a mounted character. It really did not help. Any ideas or rules anyone has seen?
EDIT: The DMG says: "Forced Movement: If an attack that forces movement targets you but not your mount, you can choose for your mount to also be affected, so that you and your mount continue to move together." I just felt that teleporting is not similar enough to say this is the same rule for teleporting. But I think this would be the intent of the designers.
I just don't think teleportation is built to handle teleporting creatures mid-air. Someone told me there was some rule requiring teleportation to end on ground level, but I haven't seen it just now (I could have misheard or imagined it completely). My decision has been to house rule away any situation teleportation situation that would add absurd amounts of damage, to either not function (you need to teleport them onto solid ground), adjusted not to end the combat (less damage), or grant options to protect creatures from the normally dangerous damage associated with the terrain type (mounts can dive to catch their rider or multiple mounts).
This used to be a problem for us when we played rolemaster (there was a 'teleport someone else 100 foot' spell at very low levels). Our solution was to make it essentially a "consensual" spell (as was no doubt intended when the spell was invented) - we gave enormous penalties for trying to do it to unwilling targets, which meant that extremely high level spellcasters could forcibly teleport/transport low-level nobodies, but not in any other situation.
Looked over my 4th edition stuff, and yeah it doesn't seem to be covered.
something interesting i found however is that forced movement specifically bans vertical movement.
that said considering that they get different sections and forced movement seems to me to be slang for push/pull/slide I would say they are different.
Double check what the power itself says (powers that teleport an enemy are pretty rare, whats the name ) and roll with it to the best of your ability?
chances are you might have to deal with 1 tele-dismount a combat which is not so horrible.
Hmm. I'm thinking about area of effect spells that target all creatures in a burst, and have a "Push the target x squares" effect.
What happens if you hit the rider but not the mount, or vice versa?
This doesn't target one but not the other, per the DMG rule.
And there are a lot of AOE's that force movement. Both for players and monsters.
We have a houserule (and its pretty much the only one you have) is that if forced movement moves you off your mount, you have to succeed on a save to allow your mount to come along with you. Has made for many cool moments, especially seeing as our main opponents are always riding horses (nomadic mongol orcs).
covered in the first post
forced movement on mounted creatures can drag the mount along for free.
Its the tele on mounted creatures that is more the problem.
Yes, but the converse of that rule isn't in DMG. It's not in the book, but it's probably an easy houserule that forced movement of the mount will move the rider.
Except that houserules can vary wildly from DM to DM. Especially in something like Living Forgotten Realms.
Looking at the DMG, the interesting question (to me) that comes up is. If you are mounted and knocked prone, you get a saving throw. If you succeed, you stay mounted and are not knocked prone. Do dwarfs get 2 saving throws? One for being a dwarf and one for being mounted. It seems that it would be very tough to knock a mounted dwarf prone.
I don't know if it is specifically stated in the rules, but, as others have said, from what I understand, the common interpretation of teleport is that the destination must be a solid surface. No teleporting something up into thin air, teleporting people onto water (or magma), or teleporting people over a cliff.
At least, that's how I'd rule it.
I just wanted to chime into to say I appreciate everyones comments. My conclusion is that the rules don't cover this. And then I want added fuel to the fire.
Forced movement can sometimes allow you to knock someone into a pit after a failed save. Likewise, an attack that causes you to suffer the Prone condition while mounted allows a saving throw to stay mounted. (I think I remember that right) You can knock them off the flying mount with a Prone condition plus failed save. Likewise, trying to teleport a rider off the mount should be allowed... somehow.
I think I am going to add this paradigm. I think the ability to teleport or force move your opponent was intended to affect the tactical layout of the battlefield. It was not intended to be a damage producing effect. However, sometimes it works out that you can both force them to move AND have them take damage after a failed save if you are lucky/clever. (I am presuming the DM is smart enough to make the pit a reasonable fall for that level encounter.) Same for teleport; it can cause damage in the right situation. However, I also believe a teleport should be a little bit better than a forced move. (We all agree teleporting over a level appropriate pit is OK. Right? Else they should have said something in the book. The 'teleport to strong surface' house rule is just to stop abuse?)
So here is my proposal;
1- Forced move can cause reasonable damage if you fail a save.
2- Forced movement can cause 'instant death falls' (i.e. bottomless pits) with two saves. (One failed puts you over the edge. The second save is that grab for a rock, branch, etc 20 feet down.)
3- Teleport is better and can cause reasonable damage WITHOUT a save. Teleport over the reasonably sized pit and you 'fall down go boom'.
4- Teleport can cause 'instant death falls' with a failed save. So teleporting over the Bottomless Pit allows you to grab the side of the pit 20' down if you save. Teleporting the rider off of a HIGH elevation mount should allow a save, but not if you are only 40' up. Maybe the save is the mount flying back under and catching you, but you lose a round.
5- A rider who gets the Prone condition dismounts if you fail the save. No damage but the denial of the mount is bad.
6- A flying rider who gets a Prone condition dismounts with a failed save. But at high elevations you get a 'death fall save' to grab the stirup (spellng?)or be saved by the mount before you go splat.
And then just to cause debate:
Maybe the 'death fall save' should allow a save with a one half level bonus? Or maybe three saves equals death? Or maybe you get a third 'death fall save' only at paragon levels? (Heroic types die if they go airborne)
Is this in the spirit of 4e? As things get worse, you get more saves? Likewise, this provides a model for other situations. The worse the punishment, the more the saves. The mark on the wall is zero hit points plus 3 failed savings equals death. Also 3 failed saves equals Petrification.
You don't really need something like this though it is a quick way to take someone out of combat since you can't teleport them vertically then it will only happen when your fighting near a ledge. Even if you are fighting on a 100' wall and they dropped someone off the ledge it is only about 10d10 damage which will measure out to what 60-70 damage? Most low-level creatures would perish but middle level creature would survive though they would certainly be out of the fight which is a clever way to get rid of them, don't have to worry about no grind there!
Where do people get that you can not teleport into the air?
I understand that a decent house rule is that you can only teleport to 'hard surfaces'. It will stop alot of abuse. But is there something in the rules? I thought the only 'rule' was that forced movement can not be vertical.
Where do people get that you can not teleport into the air?
I understand that a decent house rule is that you can only teleport to 'hard surfaces'. It will stop alot of abuse. But is there something in the rules? I thought the only 'rule' was that forced movement can not be vertical.
From the Player's Handbook, page 285, under Forced Movement:
Distance in Squares: The power you’re using specifies how many squares you can move a target. You can choose to move the target fewer squares or not to move it at all. You can’t move the target vertically.
The portion in bold is the relevant part. Forced teleportation isn't explicitly outlined as a form of forced movement, but the following section on teleportation is clearly meant to describe how to handle situations where you teleport yourself, not forcibly teleport an enemy. It is reasonable to put forced teleportation under the heading of forced movement, which restricts vertical movement.
EDIT: Ah, I now see that by "in the air" you may have meant "horizontally but over a precipice". There isn't anything in the rules preventing this. It's up to you if you want to allow this sort of behavior, though as a rule, including precipices that deal damage vastly out of line with what a party of that level should be able to deal with is considered something to avoid.
Oh btw... located on page 223 of the Draconomic is a side-bar on the Portal Drake's Portal Burst power, which is an "offensive" teleport:
The portal drake’s portal burst can be a lot of fun, but it can also be very deadly when used in conjunction with pits and ledges. When you are building and running encounters with these drakes, there are a few things to keep in mind. First, when building encounters, heed the advice in the “Precipitous Terrain” section on page
44 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide. Second, if the portal drake teleports a creature over a precipice or a pit, but at least one side of the destination space has terrain that a creature could grab to catch itself (see “Falling,” Player’s Handbook, page 284), allow the creature the saving throw for going over the edge. In fact, when using this power, it’s almost always better to allow the PCs a chance to avoid the extreme effect of failure, so even if a portal drake could portal burst an enemy into a square that would offer no possibility of a saving throw, it might be better to pick a square that does, thus creating the possibility for a literal cliffhanger! This approach applies to more than just falling hazards. Although it is both clever and devious to design encounters in which a teleportation effect forces the PCs into a dire predicament, you should always give them a way out of those tight spots. The way out might not be optimal, and might not guarantee that the PCs will come out unscathed, but such hard knocks are the constant plight of the adventurer.
Found this on another forums while I was researching it.
So, does this make sense?
- You can only teleport a creature horizontally
- You can teleport them off a cliff, so DMs, don't design encounters with bottomless pits or enormously tall cliffs
- If you're flying on a flying mount, you probably can't be teleported off of it IF one considers teleport to be "forced movement" and I would consider it to be, in the sense that anything that moves your location on the battlefield forcibly is forced movement by definition.
I don't mean to be persnickity but, Forced Movement has nothing to do with Teleport. Forced movement is a sub-paragraph to Push, Pull, Slide. Forced movement says no vertical movement and you get a saving throw if you go over the edge.
Teleport is in a different paragraph. It has no restrictions on vertical movement. It has no situation mentioned that will allow a saving throw. Teleport seems to be more powerful than forced movement in that you can go vertical and no save since you are never near the edge of the cliff. One instant you are safe, the next you are treading air. Maybe it was an oversight, but those are not RAW teleport restrictions.
This section about the portal dragon implies that you can teleport people into a space that will lead to fall, but the DM should be nice about it. No restriction I see on being nice if you are a player. So the poor DM is forced into a quandary. If the players go flying, they get to use a tactic on the monsters that the DM is discouraged to use on the players. I have not seen the stat block on a Portal Dragon, but I assume they have wings and can basically dominate a airborne fight if you are mounted.
This sounds like a loop hole that players can exploit. If you got a bunch of obnoxious rules lawyers that like to argue, I would go with the house rule that you can only teleport to a hard surface. I am going to discuss with my players but I am going for the concept that you always get at least one save if the alternative is death. So a teleport to a reasonable fall is ok. But if you want to kill something outright, it better be an exceptional situation. I may regret this.
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New Magic Item. A saddle that does not let you get teleported off of your mount. Sounds good, but a little less functional than Dragonrider armor since it is so specific. But most high level folks could afford a good saddle without tying up your armor slot for a 'seat belt'.
Even Newer Magic Item. Maybe a belt that defends you against baneful teleports? It gives you a save? Is that the wrong item slot for this type of magic? This would cost more than the saddle since it would work when you are mounted and when you are not.
I would note that one bit of an issue with limiting teleportation to the horizontal plane is that you can't teleport things onto higher ledges, platforms and such, and similarly you can't teleport them down from them (Although you might be able to teleport them such that they would fall onto a lower floor). This isn't game breaking or horrific, I just find it odd.