What's up with the different save progressions on core PrCs in the PrC PDF?
Is there a design discussion I missed in my search? If so Please point me in right direction.
Edit: I found this thread.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/design/prestigeClasses/savingThrowProgression
Will this be the official progression model for all PrCs? In other words should any non core PrC that gets Pathfinder-ized follow the structure from the PDF?
Do we have an idea if the save progressions listed in the PDF will be the new standard for PrC save progression?
Is there some design explanation why PrC save progression is modified and base class progression is not?
Seriously am I missing something? Was there an article or something?
Edit: I found this thread.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/ pathfinderRPG/design/prestigeClasses/savingThrowProgression
Linked for you.
The idea behind the PrC saving throw changes are two-fold:
1) Keep good saves from getting stacked way way high from "first level" dips.
2) Bump the progression on bad saves a bit, to make up for "lost fractions".
Example 1) A Cleric 3/Sorcerer 4/Mystic Theurge 2 (ECL 9) used to have +10 base Will save. More particularly a Clr3/Sor4/MTh2/Loremaster2/Thaumaturgist2 (ECL 13) would have base Will +16.
Example 2) A Fighter 2/Rogue 2/Ranger 2/Duelist 2 (ECL 8) had a +0 Will save.
It doesn't "solve" either problem, but it is a simple and effective change that mitigates it to a degree.
There was fairly universal approval of the idea, enough that Jason was at least considering doing the same progression for multiclassing, though that idea received a lot more flak.
For the record, the concept is that the first level is "removed" - the "+2" starting bonuses for the good saves, as well as a level of +0 for the poor saves. Since good saves progress at +1/2, they still get +1 at first level, because good saves get +1 at 2nd level normally. Poor saves then get a +1 at 2nd, instead of 3rd.
Quite ingenious, and a simple rule for prestige classes, which are *always* on multi-class characters (even if just multi-class with racial HD).
I don't disagree with those mechanical arguments per se, but why not apply the same change to the base classes as well. Front loaded save structures are the issue not PrCs.
I don't have an issue with modifying the save structure to be less front load; I just don't get applying that change solely to PrCs. I strikes me as a non uniform application especially in light of the more liberal multiclassing rules which I approve of. I just seems to me that the mechanical fix should be universal.
I hear you on the spoiler, but I would use the +2 from level dips for just the opposite effect.
The idea behind the PrC saving throw changes are two-fold:
1) Keep good saves from getting stacked way way high from "first level" dips.
2) Bump the progression on bad saves a bit, to make up for "lost fractions".Example 1) A Cleric 3/Sorcerer 4/Mystic Theurge 2 (ECL 9) used to have +10 base Will save. More particularly a Clr3/Sor4/MTh2/Loremaster2/Thaumaturgist2 (ECL 13) would have base Will +16.
Example 2) A Fighter 2/Rogue 2/Ranger 2/Duelist 2 (ECL 8) had a +0 Will save.
It doesn't "solve" either problem, but it is a simple and effective change that mitigates it to a degree.
There was fairly universal approval of the idea, enough that Jason was at least considering doing the same progression for multiclassing, though that idea received a lot more flak.
For the record, the concept is that the first level is "removed" - the "+2" starting bonuses for the good saves, as well as a level of +0 for the poor saves. Since good saves progress at +1/2, they still get +1 at first level, because good saves get +1 at 2nd level normally. Poor saves then get a +1 at 2nd, instead of 3rd.
Quite ingenious, and a simple rule for prestige classes, which are *always* on multi-class characters (even if just multi-class with racial HD).
** spoiler omitted **
I don't disagree with those mechanical arguments per se, but why not apply the same change to the base classes as well. Front loaded save structures are the issue not PrCs.
I don't have an issue with modifying the save structure to be less front load; I just don't get applying that change solely to PrCs. I strikes me as a non uniform application especially in light of the more liberal multiclassing rules which I approve of. I just seems to me that the mechanical fix should be universal.
Well, the casual point of view is that changing base classes that much would wreak havoc on backwards compatibility of stat blocks - every single one would be "wrong". How big an issue that is depends on how and what you run.
My objection is that I *like* the front-loading, I feel it is one of the benefits of multi-classing (and always has been fwiw), which generally speaking brings a lower peak of power. It rarely gets "abused", though it can get a bit overdone.
The final objection I can think of is that it would make very little variation between classes at the start. With +1 at first level for good, and +1 to all at 2nd, saves would be very flat, which just isn't that interesting.
The "middle ground" of allowing only a single "front load" is problematic. Either you will have people multi-classing to get the "free" front-loading on each save, or you will have multi-class character where you can't tell what saves are without knowing what they took first (depending on whether the "single front load" is per save or just at first level).
The middle ground would also either make save progressions change depending on when you took it (moving it ahead one level) and require a separate chart, or it would annul the benefit of the change and you'd still have multi-class characters with ridiculously low saves at higher levels.
Dealing the change only to prestige classes is, IMO, the most moderate and effective step that can be taken.
Those are all reasonable considerations, but the combined effect of keeping base classes front loaded, easing restrictions on base class multiclassing, and unfrontloading the PrCs in addition to improving the base classes in general seems to legitimately disadvantage PrCs mechanically.
The solution seems to require a lot of very careful tweaking of PrCs to keep them competitive, and in my brief experience this seems like a rather labor intensive affair.