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I'm toying with idea of following this PrC with my kobold bard, but before I talk to the DM about it, I'd like to see what the general impression is about whether it's a worthwhile PrC. Are the new special abilities worth sacrificing the caster levels and higher level bardic abilities?
If anyone's played the class in the Beta rules, or has crunched the numbers, I'd appreciate the feedback.
PS I like the bard class just fine and don't mind going all the way to the end of the progression, I just want to keep my options open.
My opinion: Dragon Disciple is a great substitute for levels in a non-casting class (e.g. Fighter 4/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 4 is much better than Fighter 8/Sorcerer 1), but is not a great substitute for levels in a casting class (e.g. Sorcerer 6/Dragon Disciple 4 is worse than Sorcerer 10).
What mix of classes were you specifically thinking of?
Bard and DD. Don't know what the optimal mix would be to work towards for an AP that should top out around level 16-17. Right now, I'm at Bard 5.
What mix of classes were you specifically thinking of?
My two cents (again): if you do a lot of melee combat (as a kobold?), then the extra Str is nice. But otherwise I'd rather have the cool Pathfinder bard songs.
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My two cents (again): if you do a lot of melee combat (as a kobold?), then the extra Str is nice. But otherwise I'd rather have the cool Pathfinder bard songs.
Well, the fighter does seem to need a little bit of melee support from time to time, and who honestly expects a kobold to have a high STR? :) Would I get the bloodline bonus spells too?
OTOH, the bardic abilities are sweet. That's my dilemma, see?
My two cents (again): if you do a lot of melee combat (as a kobold?), then the extra Str is nice. But otherwise I'd rather have the cool Pathfinder bard songs.Well, the fighter does seem to need a little bit of melee support from time to time, and who honestly expects a kobold to have a high STR? :) Would I get the bloodline bonus spells too?
OTOH, the bardic abilities are sweet. That's my dilemma, see?
Well, I don't think it's much of a dilemma. Unless you're really focusing on being a melee bard, it's not worth losing the bard abilities (Discordant Performance and Paralyzing Show look pretty good, for instance) and caster levels.
Yes, you would get the bloodline bonus spells:
- Mage Armor -- you can probably afford a chain shirt +1, I would guess
- Resist Energy -- can be useful sometimes
- Fly -- a terrific spell!
- Fear -- you would've gotten this spell a lo-o-o-ong time ago as a bard
YMMV, of course.
Thanks for the reality check. I guess I was just distracted by the shiny new toy. :D
Let's see if I did the same ;)
We started playing Second Darkness with an all elven group. Fluff aside, I chose to play a dragon-bred fanatic, who's going to end up as a Dragon Disciple. He's mainly melee oriented.
Before the more dragonish powers he's going to accrue Brb3 / Rgr1 / Sor1. Barbarian nets him Rage and Animal Fury, while Sorcerer gives him the Claws. Ranger is there for good measure, helping against the main antagonists in the story.
I haven't really thought about the Disciple levels yet. But my gut feeling tells me that this should work. What do you think?
And to hogarth. I know, I know. I should've made him a Sorcerer/Monk ;)
If anyone's played the class in the Beta rules, or has crunched the numbers, I'd appreciate the feedback.
There was a lot of number crunching going on during the Design phase, here's links:
Dragon Disciple Build Suggestions
Dragon Disciple - I Don't Like The Non-Melee Change
Dragon Disciple Can We Trade This Out For Something Better
[edit: Fixed links]
Thanks for the reality check. I guess I was just distracted by the shiny new toy. :DLet's see if I did the same ;)
We started playing Second Darkness with an all elven group. Fluff aside, I chose to play a dragon-bred fanatic, who's going to end up as a Dragon Disciple. He's mainly melee oriented.
Before the more dragonish powers he's going to accrue Brb3 / Rgr1 / Sor1. Barbarian nets him Rage and Animal Fury, while Sorcerer gives him the Claws. Ranger is there for good measure, helping against the main antagonists in the story.
I haven't really thought about the Disciple levels yet. But my gut feeling tells me that this should work. What do you think?
And to hogarth. I know, I know. I should've made him a Sorcerer/Monk ;)
Why would you want to punish yourself by playing a monk? ;-)
By the way, I was thinking of taking Dragon Disciple (well, in his case "Abyssal Disciple") levels for my monk/sorcerer. He'll probably be something like monk 2/sorcerer 2/fighter(?) 1 before entering dragon disciple. I'll just keep pouring everything into Str in his case.
There was a lot of number crunching going on during the Design phase
Note: Some people were adamant that levels in Dragon Disciple were better than levels in Sorcerer in just about every case, but I disagree with that assessment; caster levels are usually more important than a variety of random abilities that mostly benefit melee fighters.
To be clear these aren't just a bunch of "random abilities" they are a specific and focused group of powers designed to make you better at a specific thing.
When taking the DD class bard is a nice lead in. You have the better BAB, armor usage, save throws, skills and HP of the bard, plus several useful spells for melee combat (both offensive and defensive). The armor, save throws, and HP will all see you live longer than a sorcerer would in melee combat, and since you can already use armor you can save your swift action for arcane strike (pathfinder version) which will increase your melee damage more (in addition to what you are adding from your bardic music). While the other bardic musics are nice, don't forget you can only use one at a time (some can linger and overlap but not the offensive ones) and most those effects can be just as readily handled by the other spell chuckers. The skill points will help make up for the spells you won't have on your list (just as they do for regular bards) and after a couple levels of DD all your saves will be fairly decent.
Now I'm not saying that "DD is the only way to go" or that "bards are always better DD's than sorcerers". I'm only pointing out the advantages of a bardic DD.
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There was a lot of number crunching going on during the Design phase, here's links:
For some reason, these default back to the Paizo main page for me. Is it because they're locked? I'll try to track them down manually and see what I can see.
The longsword swinging, claw swiping, arcane striking, courage inspired, bull's strengthed kobold bard/dd sounds pretty nasty in combat. ;)
There was a lot of number crunching going on during the Design phase, here's links:
For some reason, these default back to the Paizo main page for me. Is it because they're locked? I'll try to track them down manually and see what I can see.
The longsword swinging, claw swiping, arcane striking, courage inspired, bull's strengthed kobold bard/dd sounds pretty nasty in combat. ;)
Fixed the links, sorry.
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Finished skimming the posts you referred. It looks like the bard may be the ideal non-multiclassed caster for DD.
Would be totally self serving to suggest that since we've seen some iconic base classes, it would be really helpful to see a sample build of a PrC or two? That would let us see what changes were made to improve the class, and give us a nice change of pace from smelly dwarf rangers. Perhaps a kobold Bard/DD? :) Whaddaya say, Jason? :)
He'll probably be something like monk 2/sorcerer 2/fighter(?) 1 before entering dragon disciple. I'll just keep pouring everything into Str in his case.
Is it the high Str that justifies the bit unorthodox build? While I was dabbling with the Sor/Mnk idea I thought Sor1/Mnk4 was the way to go - Mnk4 is just too good a level to pass. You have an interesting build there, though, and I see some wisdom in it. Combined with a character it's most probably awesome.
Purely from a gamistic point of view I see the build a bit unfocused. I realize you're building on the strengths of the PrC but I fear that's the problem. The whole PrC could use some streamlining. d12 hit die, 3/4 BAB and 2/3 spell progression is just a bit too weird for my tastes.
Not that it's going to stop me making one. I'll just build on the physical aspects of the PrC, and consider all spell-casting abilities as a bonus.
*ahem* smelly Dwarf Rangers rock! ;)
Finished skimming the posts you referred. It looks like the bard may be the ideal non-multiclassed caster for DD.
Would be totally self serving to suggest that since we've seen some iconic base classes, it would be really helpful to see a sample build of a PrC or two? That would let us see what changes were made to improve the class, and give us a nice change of pace from smelly dwarf rangers. Perhaps a kobold Bard/DD? :) Whaddaya say, Jason? :)
("Finn" is the monk/sorcerer character I'm referring to. -hogarth)
He'll probably be something like monk 2/sorcerer 2/fighter(?) 1 before entering dragon disciple. I'll just keep pouring everything into Str in his case.Is it the high Str that justifies the bit unorthodox build? While I was dabbling with the Sor/Mnk idea I thought Sor1/Mnk4 was the way to go - Mnk4 is just too good a level to pass.
Monk 4 is good. But I should note that my particular character uses a (2-handed) longspear rather than an unarmed strike (there's a feat in the Eberron Campaign Setting that allows you to flurry with a longspear), so the extra unarmed damage is unimportant. And if I really wanted +1 AC, I could take Dodge with my fighter level (I probably won't, though). So that leaves the Ki Pool; again, my character doesn't use an unarmed strike, but the extra attack in a flurry and/or the +4 dodge bonus are pretty sweet. But a fighter feat and a level of sorcerer are pretty sweet, too. (I'm also debating taking a level of barbarian instead of fighter; the extra speed and rage would be pretty nifty.)
Purely from a gamistic point of view I see the build a bit unfocused. I realize you're building on the strengths of the PrC but I fear that's the problem. The whole PrC could use some streamlining. d12 hit die, 3/4 BAB and 2/3 spell progression is just a bit too weird for my tastes.
Not that it's going to stop me making one. I'll just build on the physical aspects of the PrC, and consider all spell-casting abilities as a bonus.
That's basically what I'm doing, too; building up my character's Str score and fighting (flurrying) with a two-handed weapon. But as far as sorcerer levels go, the more the merrier!
Monk 4 is good. But I should note that my particular character uses a (2-handed) longspear rather than an unarmed strike (there's a feat in the Eberron Campaign Setting that allows you to flurry with a longspear), so the extra unarmed damage is unimportant.
That's reason enough. I was mainly thinking about the +1 unarmed damage (on average) and magical damage from unarmed strikes. Those combined with ki pool, slow fall, +1 AC and +1 to all saves make Monk 4 huge (for monks).
On the other hand, your longspear specialiazation makes the whole point moot. There are better levels for enlarged (hint :) spear-wielding maniacs out there.
On the other hand, your longspear specialiazation makes the whole point moot. There are better levels for enlarged (hint :) spear-wielding maniacs out there.
See, my original plan was to use an unarmed strike as Finn's primary weapon. But I was disappointed that, by level 2, he had 2 attacks that were just flat-out better (thanks to his sorcerer level):
- a masterwork longspear attack for +4 attack, 1d8+4 damage (compared to a single unarmed strike for +3, 1d6+3)
- a pair of claws for +3/+3, 1d6+3 (compared to a flurry of blows for +1/+1, 1d6+3)
Needing to take 4 levels of monk (on top of Finn's level of sorcerer) before his unarmed strike would be worth using was kind of disheartening to me. So I decided to stick with the longspear.
Claws (Ex): Starting at 1st level, you can make two claw attacks as a full-attack action. These claws are treated as natural weapons, meaning that you are always considered armed and you do not gain additional attacks for a high base attack bonus. These attacks deal 1d6 points of damage plus your Strength modifier (1d4 if you are Small). At 5th level, these claws are considered magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming DR. At 7th level, the damage increases to 1d8 points of damage (1d6 if you are Small). At 11th level, these claws deal an additional 1d6 points of damage of your energy type on a successful hit. This is a supernatural ability.
Whoa, can we use the two claw attacks without dropping the longspear? Or better yet, while using a shield?
Whoa, can we use the two claw attacks without dropping the longspear? Or better yet, while using a shield?
No, I would say common sense would dictate that the PC needs to drop his longspear to use his claws. So his claws aren't better in every way to an unarmed strike, just in most ways (unless your monk is 4th level or higher). :-)
No, I would say common sense would dictate that the PC needs to drop his longspear to use his claws. So they're not better in every way to an unarmed strike, just in most ways (unless your monk is 4th level or higher). :-)
I'd say that the spear needs to drop too. This idea came from monk's unarmed wording which allows you to hold on to your weapons while kicking or head-butting the opposition to the dark age.
While we're discussing Dragon Disciples, I'll throw out a different build.
It's somewhat influenced by the fluff around character, and by the needs the party had. The party needed a melee bruiser who could act as meat shield if needed. The latter part wasn't that important though. The rest of the party are an archer, a rogue and a bard/rogue multi-class, all elves. We're avoiding straight confrontation when we can.
Stats (20pt, Elf): Str 15, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 11
Going for: Brb3 / Rgr1 / Sor1 / Ddi10
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Planes), Knowledge (Religion), Spellcraft
I don't know how effective he'll be but, boy, is he fun to play :)
The thing is, I've tried the conversion to pathfinder for my character...and while i was on it it hit me like a meat wagon. What if you are a Draconic Sorcerer?? Does it make any sense?? Or you can just go by with the basic class and eventually grow wings and become a really near dragon disciple thingy?
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but a plain old Draconic bloodline Sorcerer would indeed get wings and a breath weapon and be similar to a Dragon Disciple.